To whom it may concern,

Is there anything I can do about being sold a puppy by one of your members who had a heart murmur even after being assured that they had been vet checked? I did request a refund from the breeder but they refuses to, in any way, do so.

Awaiting to hear your comments and thanks for your time.

[Admin note: Breeders details removed. Please remember the laws of libel apply to the internet]

Is this a young pup?  It is quite usual for pups to have a murmer that clears up by the time they reach 12 weeks or so.  Although, naturally I would expect your own vet to know that anyway.

Tell us more about the pup, it could well be nothing for you to be worrying about.

So sorry to hear this.  I'm not sure that naming this breeder is appropriate.  Heart murmurs aren't always detectable at such an early stage although conversely many appear to be diagnosed by over enthusiastic vets who then frighten their owners who don't always realise that it might resolve in time.

How old is your puppy?  Has the murmur been graded?  I don't have experience of heart murmurs but I've read a lot on this forum about them over the years so it might be worth doing a search of the site to see what you can find.  (Use the search box at the bottom of the page to find previous threads)

If you start a new topic specifically about heart murmurs you'll probably get more replies.  I think it would be helpful for you to hear from other breeders with their experiences and to discuss what they do if a puppy is diagnosed.  Do you have a contract with the breeder?  Were murmurs mentioned?  If it is the breed I think it is then murmers are not uncommon so I'd imagine this is one of the health issues that is discussed before buying a puppy...

It is very common for vets to miss minor murmurs -so much depends on how carefully they listen, how much noise there is in the background, if the puppy is panting or not, and how good the vet's hearing is. So this doesn't have to mean the breeder has lied -far from it. As others have said if it is a young pup then minor murmurs usually do disappear and will not present a health issue at all.

Having said that, personally if I had sold a pup under the same circumstances and the owner didn't want to keep it then I'd happily return the purchase price and have the puppy back,  as what matters most has to be that the pup is in the right home and the buyer is sure they have what they want.

it may well be that his vet didn't pick this up, how old is the puppy and what grade is the heart murmur?  it's probably a good idea to leave it till 6 months as it may well be fine by then ... any refund will be dependent on what the actual health issue is and presumably if you're after a full refund you'll have to return the pup to the breeder.. it may be appropriate to have a refund if you're stopped from doing what you bought (and told the breeder you wanted to do) the puppy for (ie breeding or agility etc) if the life of the puppy isn't affected should you have a refund?  we'd need a lot more details to be able to respond, but not a good idea to include the name of the breeder at this stage, unless to a private email to the site owner, with more information.

I did request a refund from him but he refuses to, in any way, do so.

Whoo......... hold on, did you ask for a refund and also to keep the pup too, if so no breeder would do that! Especially on the word of a vet who may well be jumping the gun over a flow murmur which is becoming more and more common for a vet to worry an owner over and is something that may well naturally go away.

One vet may take no notice of a flow murmur due to their experience others will use it as a way to get insurance money from unsuspecting new owners whilst the going is good, so the breeders vet either did not notice at all or decided not to make an issue of it, were you shown the breeders vet report on your pup?

Is this a breed with heart issues, were both parents health checked? If not that is one issue, if they were checked and the breeder has done all they could sometimes bad luck just happens, depending on the grade of the heart murmur it may well cause the breeder to give you some recompense morally, but if this is a young pup you need to wait and see, of course a breeder will not give a full or partial refund at this stage.

You are perhaps acting on impulse at being frightened by your vet, you should keep communications open with your breeder and not jump to conclusions before a second opinion if need be by the breeders vet and finding out just what type of murmur this is.

It's a little soon to start naming and shaming a breeder who may have done nothing wrong, whereas plenty of vets from what I have heard are causing distress and upset to new owners when there is no need.

>Especially on the word of a vet who may well be jumping the gun over a flow murmur which is becoming more and more common for a vet to >worry an owner over and is something that may well naturally go away.

I had this happen to me.  Luckily I bred the pup and was knowledgeable enough to not be immediately terrified by the enthusiasm of the vet who examined pup before her first vaccination.   He wanted to send us to their specialist immediately for heart testing etc.

I said that as he was happy to vaccinate the pup and she was very lively and sniffing excitedly at everything, that I wait until her next vaccination and see if it had improved as flow murmurs were common in pups.   2 weeks later the vet (a different one) listened for ages, as I specifically asked her to check for any murmur.   No murmur could be found at all and the first vet hadn't even recorded a murmur on the pup's notes!

Can't help wondering how many pups were unnecessarily being diagnosed and their owners upset and terrified by that vet - all for nothing!

OP   Please don't panic yet, unless your pup has been seen by a specialist etc as mentioned above.  It really could just be a case of the vet getting things all out of proportion ;)

To the OP. You have not really given us enough information to advice you with any confidence. How old is the puppy, has it been seen by a specialist and scored, what did you ask the breeder for, have you asked your vet to speak the the breeders vet to see if they were happy with the pup when it left the breeder.

You may be right to be cross but from your post it is impossible to say if this is just another case of poor vet advice or if you really do have reason to be upset.

Get back to us and give more information and then we can give informed advice.

Vets can also have different opinions in relation to heart murmers. I have had at least two vets tell me my veteran boy had a heart murmer ranging from Grade 1 to 3. Two different vets have said he does not have a murmer and one of these is a very highly regarded and senior heart specialist -who incidentally was the most recent vet to listen to my boy's heart. So a second opinion may also be worth having.

A friend's elderly dog was diagnosed with congestive heart failure and sent for (a very expensive) heart scan, Once again the specialist cardiologist said even after a stethescope examination that there was no problem and the scan confirmed his heart was in fantastic condition.

I've got a heart murmur, had it for 58 yrs, never had a problem.! joking aside, they can clear themselves, I dont think i would worry if a puppy had one, all the advise here sounds very logical. I must admit I'm always very wary of vets being over zealous with things. Especially with pedigree dogs, they seem to like to tell you that theres 'problems ' with this breed and that.  But thats opening another can of worms!

How old is this pup?  Sometimes a pup can have a slight heart murmur.  I have to say so far I have never bred one, or been advised of having bred one with a heart murmur but many go I believe by the age of 14 weeks in dogs.

I don't know whether this is the breed that I have or not.

I had two in a litter last year, slight heart murmours at 7 weeks, fully gone by second vaccinations at 10 weeks - I kept one and the other went and no problems with either, it's just some take a bit longer than others for the heart to fully form....

Well 24 hours and not a peep out of the OP - do they want help or were they just making a post to "vent their spleen"

Trouble is they, in all probability, now owe the breeder a huge apology and to have firm words with their vet, we don't know for certain and wont unless we are given more information but it seems this is yet another case of ill-informed or anti pure breed vet not engaging brain before opening mouth.

> it's just some take a bit longer than others for the heart to fully form....

I genuinely didn't know this sort of information til I started hanging around on CD, it just hadn't ever come up before, and we often get members with problems reporting the same.  There are a lot of dog facts that are known by dog people but aren't widely discussed outside of select groups.  This is where very good breeders can help - and why waiting lists can be useful.  Knowledgable breeders can explain these sorts of issues before puppies are even on the ground, and potential puppy buyers can have time to do their own research before the puppy comes home.  Hernias, murmurs, allergies etc all fall into the 'possible' list and vets aren't always the best people to talk to are they? :)

Hopefully it's just a misunderstanding.  Lets hope the breeder was clear about what a murmur is or could be, and that the vet was mistaken or overenthusiastic.  Perhaps the OP will come back and let us know how he/she gets on. 

the person who bought my pup hadn't come across it before, but I knew they'd be fine.... I think it just depends on the vet... interestingly they said they were taking the pup to a local vet their friend knew and as it was another branch of my vets I suggested they speak to the vet who'd checked them for me.. vets are inclined to be cautious, but no issues with either pup as with most pups like this...

Nova, I seen this post when it first came on and he had included a lot of details about the breeder(very traceable).  I think the point of the post was to name and shame rather than advice.

I seen this post when it first came on

Yes cracar I did too, thought the post could involve the forum in a legal dispute so refrained from answering for a while. Think this is mostly a case of misunderstand on the behalf of the OP having been wound up by their vet but unless we are given more information I don't see how we can really know. The dog may be 2 years and specifically purchased to breed - but I doubt it and I would not be surprised if it were a maligned and abused breeder we have here rather than a sick puppy.

> I genuinely didn't know this sort of information

It happens more often now as puppies are often being vaccinated younger (8 and 10 weeks) used not to have their second vaccinations/puppy checks until they were over 12 weeks.

I had this happen 12 years ago from a litter bred from a friends bitch, and it was gone at the second vaccination at 10 weeks, she was just less mature than her siblings.

Fortunately the owner had the breed before and did not panic, and the vet said it was highly likely to be innocent and would go in a few weeks.

Have I missed something but where did the op go ? Only one post ? as someone said did they really want advice ?

Sounded to me like they were trying to blackmail the breeder into giving them a refund. I did not see the details of the breeder and I hope that not many others did either.

My one boston had a heart murmur and by her next check up at the vet it was gone. They usually do out grow them.
I wouldn't worry as of yet, just keep the breeder updated on all- like any other good breeder they would do good by you
and your puppy :-)