Hi All, would really appreciate some advice, 2 of my male gsd have fallen out this week, never happened before and they have lived together for a long time now. They had a scrap at the weekend, i assume it was because one of the young girls has just started her season, although there has never been a fight over girls before.

The only thing that has changed is that the youngest male aged almost 3 has recently been used at stud for the first time, it was him that started the fight on my 6 year old male (top dog). I seperated them assuming it would calm down after a day or 2 but they are still seperated as the young one starts as soon as i let the older male in. He even tried to grab him through the bars of the dog gate this morning.
Never had any of my boys scrapping and i have 5 entire males here so this is a first for me. Thoughts appreciated on what move i should make next???

It will be sexual as you have guessed, dogs will fight for breeding rights.

I have a friend with three entire boys nearly two, 9 and 13 1/2 years (the oldest and youngest have been used at stud).

When her two girls are in season they stay away from the house.  thsi has enabled for teh boys to live in harmony.

If you can't arrange to board in season bitches elsewhere then you will need to keep these boys apart until well after the season is over and also watch for interactions once they are introduced when bitches are on the run up to a season.

Thanks Brainless, i did wonder if getting them away from the house for a while would help, i am assuming it will stop when she is out of season? In all the years of owning males have been lucky enough to never had one that wanted to scrap over girls.

Unfortunately some will, even if they haven't been used at stud, but having tasted the forbidden fruit there is more incentive.

One thing about boys they do forgive and forget not something that happen with bitches in my experience once they have fallen out they are all ways looking to continue the spat.

Thanks Nova, thats good to know, these 2 were so close until last week so i was so surprised when they started. Only ever had one bitch fight here and unfortunately one of them had to be rehomed as she would just not let it go, it absolutely broke my heart and i can't bear the thought of it happening again.

Was considering getting the older one castrated as he is now retired from stud duties, he is top dog though so not sure how this would upset the balance???

Was considering getting the older one castrated as he is now retired from stud duties, he is top dog though so not sure how this would upset the balance???

You would be unfortunate for it not to settle down once the bitch is finished, however if you do go for castration I would try the chemical option first as you may well cause an upset in the balance they have developed over the years.

Thought i would put an update on just in case anyone else is searching fr similar answers. The boys had to be seperated until my bitches season was over, i could see them softening up to each other in the last week but didn't want to risk it so i waited until a week after she had finished and they went straight back to being the best of friends and have remained that way since. One of my girls is due in over the next few weeks so am keeping a close eye on them.

Glad it's all harmony again - and you're forewarned for the next season. :-)

So glad it has settled for you if only the bitches would do the same but once they have a real scrap they never seem to forget or forgive, the boys seem to see no reason to fight over nothing so once the reason has gone, peace returns.

Hi everyone, wanted to add on here rather than start  a new thread as the problem has reared its ugly head again. The two boys mentioned above have started fighting again, this time over seemingly nothing?? it has been 2 weeks now and they still can't be reunited without the younger one starting again. So, i am thinking i will castrate the younger male, would really like others thoughts on this. Would be utterly heartbroken to have to rehome one so will do whatever it takes.................

You did say in May another girl was due in season in a few weeks, this could again be your issue, has she come in?, or about to.

Is it possible the younger is just touting for becoming top dog.  If that is the case you may need to consider whether you are better to treat him as a top dog and allow the challenge to your older boy's leadership or if you are going to try to keep the order as it is.  If you do this it may lead to more and more confrontations as the younger boy obviously feels he is up to the job.  Personally I have let my girls sort their own order out and although the order changes depending on the situation I find they are pretty harmonious because they know where they stand and I am not trying to force the "wrong" one to be in charge and worrying about trying to maintain a false order.  I have actually found my older dog is more relaxed now I am not trying to establish her authority over the puppy, although they are pretty close in age so perhaps that is easier

Castration doesn't always work and can't be undone.

There is an injection/ implant which chemically castrates the dog and will wear off in time, if it sorts out the problem then surgical castration can be done when implant runs out.

We as a family have never neutered a male dog, I have 2 males at present and any spats are when there is a bitch coming into season, I seperate them when unsupervised and they go back to normal when the seasons have passed.

It is always much more difficult to keep entire males and females living together, as dogs and bitches will automatically need a hierarchy as you have put together a real pack now, natural instincts for breeding rights will automatically be kicking in. Not something that you can just hope to go away, there must be a top dog and bitch now, whether they actually get to mate with each other or not.

As others have said neutering may make no difference at all the instinctual calling will still probably be there.

We humans can make terrible mistakes in deciding who is the top dog or bitch if we don't understand the body language correctly judge brawn and intelligence we can make cock ups which cost harmony in a pack dearly.

I don't know whether the younger male is to be top dog or not he obviously is trying or the older dog may be starting the fights to make sure he knows his place, it is something only you can see and in which case whoever you are sure is going to be the alpha you can treat as such, if you are not sure get a reputable behaviourist in to read things properly.

As you have more than one un-neutered female in the house this will continue to kick up and cool down so separation is probably best at times, or maybe even sending the males elsewhere until seasons are over and the house and garden have been de-scented, the plus side is dogs will forgive and forget unlike bitches, once hierarchy is sorted it will calm down.

This is why many breeders prefer to just keep one sex stops all this nonsense, (although not nonsense to the dogs)

Above all else make sure you are the one in charge  and try to focus their attention back on you, although you are fighting breeding rights here so not easy.

Sometimes they just decide they simply do not like each other. Many years ago now I had a Golden bitch come into season for the first time, and at the same time I had a Golden dog and a Cavalier dog. The bitch decided to flirt with the older dog which was the Cavalier -he was a year older than the Golden. She ignored the Golden. (That was like the first day of the season, then the bitch was obviously split up from them.) Well from that day onwards the Golden hated the Cavalier. We had the Cavalier castrated on the advice of a behaviourist, he was 3 then, did not make any difference at all. We kept the two apart for the rest of their lives which was for a total of 11 years until the Golden died at 13. They never forgot. After something like 5 years the two got accidentally let together by a child, the Golden instantly picked the Cavalier up by his neck and shook him -that's how deep seated his hatred of him was. The Cavalier had not even once even tried to fight back and had no intention of trying to be high ranking.

I currently have a male entire Malinois who has decided he hates my male crossbreed -the crossbreed was neutered at less than 5 months of age so the Mali has never known him to be entire, and they had lived together for a few years before suddenly one day he decided to try to kill him -literally, it was a month before we even knew the crossbreed would live after being badly injured. So that's another two never to meet again as long as they live -they've been kept apart for 2 years now. So please, be very careful if you try introductions again, and never leave them unattended together as all it takes is a split moment for serious injuries to occur.Some dogs just never forget no matter what and I'd imagine your breed is similar to mine in that male to male aggression isn't at all uncommon.

Thank you all for your replies, the boys are living in harmony once again, no idea what started this spat, one of my girs was due in season late may/ early june but still no signs of it starting so am wondering if she had a silent season??  They are acting as if they had never fallen out and have gone completely back to being buddies again.

Glad that peace reigns again, be prepared for future spats when there are females in season.