Hi all,

This is just a silly query, and it's certainly not relating to any situation I'm likely to find myself in :-D just curiosities really. The more you get into showing, the more you wonder about the 'what ifs', so I'm hoping someone can answer these queries for me please

1.  Reserve Best of Breeds - are they able to challenge in the group if the BOB that beat them gets placed? And if so, do people generally do this?

2.  Group 2 - if you win group 2 are able to challenge for RBIS if the winner of your group goes BIS?  I can see how this may be more logistically possible at an open show, but what about a champ show where it would involve coming back another day?

3.  Puppies placing in 'adult' groups - I was told yesterday that if a puppy is placed in the group, beating other adult BOBs (eg getting group 2), then it automatically gets Puppy group 1?  Admittedly, it'd have to be a fabulous example to beat several adult dogs so it's likely it would win puppy group on its own merits, but seems a bit unfair if it's pre-decided when it hasn't actually competed against the other puppies (which admittedly would have been beaten by an adult in their breeds, but those adults may have been placed in the group and beaten the puppy in question).  Can anyone confirm if this is in fact a rule?

Thanks :-)

Clare

Answers
1. No group placings are decided from the BOB's.
2. Again no shows on the group system RBIS is chosen from the remaining group winners.
3. The Puppy would have to go group 1 in the adult group as there could otherwise be puppies from the breeds placed above it in the group that could challenge it.
Having said that puppy group judging would also still take place.

>3.  Puppies placing in 'adult' groups - I was told yesterday that if a puppy is placed in the group, beating other adult BOBs (eg getting group 2), then it automatically gets Puppy group 1?

No.

My puppy was recently BoB and BP and was awarded G3 in the adult group, but was subsequently beaten into PG3 by the puppy (who wasn't BoB) in the breed which was placed 4th in the adult group.

I think if a puppy is group 1 or 2 it has to win the puppy group, but doesn't if placed group 3 or 4.  Not confusing at all!

At the united retriever open shows RBIS is chosen from the remaining BOB's and the RBOB of the BIS winner.  Which means all the RBOB have to stay till the end!  Not sure if the same happens at the champ show?

At the united retriever open shows RBIS is chosen from the remaining BOB's and the RBOB of the BIS winner.  Which means all the RBOB have to stay till the end!  Not sure if the same happens at the champ show?
Quote selected text

Breed club shows often have awards for BIS, RBIS and BOS. If this is the case and the BIS is a dog, the BD and the BOS is the BB (the two animals challenging for the BIS) then the animal laying reserve to the BIS will be in contest with the BOS in this case the RBD. Of course, if the sex of the BIS is a bitch then the whole thing may be reversed.

Having read my post I realise it is as clear as mud so I will try again.

At a breed club or a breed at a general show where there have been separate classes for dogs and bitches, a best dog and reserve best dog, best bitch and reserve best bitch must be selected.

Therefore if the awards of Best in Show, Reserve Best in Show and Best opposite sex or Best of Breed, Reserve Best of Breed and Best opposite Sex in Breed are on offer the following must happen.

The best dog and best bitch meet to determine the best in show. (or breed)

The animal that does not win best in show (the best bitch) is automatically best opposite sex.

So now to chose the animal that is Reserve Best in Show you have to chose between the Best bitch and the reserve Best Dog both of whom have only been beaten by the Best in Show (or breed)

Hope that is more clear. 

3. if a puppy gets adult group 1 or 2 it is automatically puppy group 1 but if it has adult group 3 or 4 it is not automatically puppy group winner.

2. I have sometimes thought a similar thing & come to the conclusion that if it was allowed, it would have been done by now...lol

1. as others have said this is a no

Think it is because originally there was a group or show winner and a reserve and then it was decided that it would be nice in the group to give a couple more awards so we got 4 dogs placed in the group the winner and reserve then a 3rd & 4th.

In the group show I am associated with we give a best in show, reserve best in show and then a group 3 and group 4.

When you think of it there are a few awards at a show that are in fact not really awards at all but they do act as a confidence boost. You go in to a group and if you are short listed that is an achievement, then you may not win or be the reserve in the group but you are actually placed 3 or 4 a meaningless award really but still much better than being short listed but then chucked out.

So these 'non awards' are all part of the show excitement the build up and the gentle let down. Any award beyond the reserve are not given if the reserve is with held, so in a class if there is no reserve then there will be no VHC, HC or commended the same with group if there was no reserve awarded then there could be no 3rd or 4th.

>When you think of it there are a few awards at a show that are in fact not really awards at all but they do act as a confidence boost. You go in to a group and if you are short listed that is an achievement, then you may not win or be the reserve in the group but you are actually placed 3 or 4 a meaningless award really but still much better than being short listed but then chucked out.

3rd and 4th in a group are proper awards and not meaningless at all, specially if you're collecting ShCM points!

3rd and 4th in a group are proper awards and not meaningless at all, specially if you're collecting ShCM points!

Did not mean that, of course, they are meaningful to the winner but in terms of progressing through the competition for BIS they are meaningless.

Thanks everyone.  1 and  2 make sense :-)

But it seems a few people describe different rules for Puppies?  I understand if a Puppy got group 1, then it would automatically get puppy group 1, but I don't understand why this would be the case for adult group 2?  The best puppy from the breed that won the group could be better and deserves to compete against the Group 2 puppy?  Doesn't it? 

I was at a show on Saturday where a puppy got group 2, and spectators said it'd automatically get puppy group 1.  In this case, it absolutely deserved to, but I'm not sure it's fair on the puppy from the breed that got group 1, if it's a foregone conclusion? 

Hi it is confusing but start at the other end, so to speak, you can't have the dog winning Best in Show or Reserve Best in Show being beaten so that is why it works the way it does. The winner of the Adult group and the Reserve can't go on to be beaten by a puppy they have to be winner and reserve so if they happen to be puppies then they automatically win the puppy group.

The winners from the adult group will go on to contest for BIS and if one of them is disqualified then the reserve will go through because you need 7 in the BIS ring. If the reserve in this case had been beaten the the whole system falls apart. Having won group one or two they should withdraw from further competition except for BIS.

it is possible and i have done it for a puppy to win group 1 automatically win puppy group reason being it is the best dog in the group so it has to be the best puppy in group and if a puppy wins best in show it is the best dog in the show and has to be best puppy in show same applies to reserve best in show the second best dog in show is a puppy so it has to be best puppy in show same rules also apply if there is a veteran group held if a veteran wins the group it is best veteran in group and if it goes on to best in show it is best veteran in show, which can make things awarkward if they say best veteran in show comes from the veteran class it has been seen to cause agruments espeically at darlington champ show where each group has a different judge and a veteran won group 2 and a different judge had to give it veteran group