The ironic thing is some of these breeders are lobbying strongly for compulsory health testing! The fact that it goes on now probably means that it wouldn't be any more or less prevalent (in GSDs) if health testing were compulsory for showing.

I can only guess that the kennels/breeders that do this do not want poor scores 'reflecting' on them and their dogs or breeding decisions. It is ridiculous and very destructive. Some of these kennels bang out considerable numbers of litters too, so we are looking at quite 'commercial' operations, when compared to your breed Brainless, since it is a numerically huge breed.

A breeder in my breed on the continent was charging  the equivalent of an extra £200 per pup, which is returned to the new owners when the pup is hip scored/eye tested.

In theory this was a good idea, but with pups on the continent, I think, being sold for about 1200 Euros, an extra % on top of this may just be too  much.

Would it catch on in this country?    I'm not sure, but it would surely be good for the breed.

Jo

I'm sorry guys to disagree with any of you who are of the opinion that HD has a genetic origin.Surely you are aware that hip scoring has not reduced the incidence of this complaint one little bit.In my 3 score and 10 years I have learnt that one has to be a bit of a detective when solving problems-one needs to get to the history and very beginning,and in many cases like this ,without 'experts' who invariably have financial interests.
What happened in the 1950's and 60's when this problem started to become more commonplace and increase?-this was the time when dog biscuits and kibble started to be produced wasn't it?Today that form of feed is probably 95% of all feeding for pets.It is great feeding-every pellet eaten has a  perfectly balanced nutritional analysis-there is no picking and choosing or fines that are left which contain all the essential micro nutrients.
BUT-here comes the new owner who buys a perfectly healthy and fit pup-from healthy and fit parents and takes it home.
Do you know what happens to that pup?Are you a fly on the wall that can tell us the story?The story that nearly ALL pet owners have an insatiable drive to feed that loving pet treats and 'extras'.The dry dog biscuits are soooo boring! Never mind the signs at the zoo which say 'don't feed the animals'. At home we do what we like.We are killing our dogs with 'kindness'. That diet of biscuits with a CA-P ratio of around 1.4 to 1 is shot to ribbons with 50-100 gms of treats which are generally meat type products with CA-P ratio of up tp 1 to 20!!!
You can do the sums.This is a pup of say 8-10 weeks who was born with soft bones or cartiledge-bones that need to harden and develop with a balanced diet.NOT a diet intake of 1-4 CA-P,where the body seeks to balance and acquire extra CA which is stored only in one place-it leeches from the bones! Or from any bone structure that exists.
BUT-what do I know?I have only reared 100's of large breed dogs without ever 1 case of HD.A 50 year research project!!Who can claim that?
Oh-I feed add lib as well-always have.I don't know how much to feed,but my dogs have always known-it is plain common sense nature my friends.
So my view on HD is NUTRITION NUTRITION get it right

> I have only reared 100's of large breed dogs without ever 1 case of HD

So are you saying that each and every dog you have ever bred has been x rayed and hip scored? Well all I can say is WOW!! Because make no mistake if you do not x ray and score every single dog you have absolutely no way of validating your claim.

And then to try lay blame at the feet of owners is ludicrous! And smacks of backyard breeders get out tactics.

> Surely you are aware that hip scoring has not reduced the incidence of this complaint one little bit.In

Where on earth do you get the idea that HD status has not improved since scorting started, where scoring has been used as a selection criteeria?

Have a look at the rolling mean scores for breeds in the kennel clubs last two health reports: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3671

and for USA the OFA information here on Hip dysplasia trends based on theri system of evaluation:http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html?view=2

HD does have a genetic origin, there's no doubt, although it's a complex one, not least because not ALL HD is caused by genetics.  Without being able to tie down the genes involved (complex polygenic) hip scoring is the only way at the moment to try and reduce HD, it doesn't work 100% of the time, so those who believe it's not genetics are given a boost, but it does depend on the genes involved and how they interact with each other, so you can have HD from low scoring parents, but the trend is reduced and it's important that all the x-rays are scored to give as wide a picture as possible.  It's clear to me though that whilst genetics accounts for the majority of incidents, there are other causes, which complicate matters.

>BUT-what do I know?I have only reared 100's of large breed dogs without ever 1 case of HD.

And what were their hip-scores? Radiography is the only accurate means of determing the presence or otherwise of HD.

To rear 'hundreds' (how many hundreds?) of dogs over 50 years, with each having say a lifespan of 10 years, means having very many dogs at any time - far too many for one person to keep track of accurately! And we all know that dogs can have quite severe HD before they show any obvious symptoms.

No, I'll go with the real experts; the ones who know that heredity and environment (of which nutrtition is only a part) both play a part

Actually this is what you said:

  'If its important for breeding purposes then as far as I'm concerned the breeder can pay for the score to be done by BVA.'

So it's rather inconsistent to say the least, for you now to say:

> The breeder was never asked or expected to pay for any health test, maybe you skimmed through but didn't actually read my posts.

I think you are taking this out of context.  You stated in your earlier post that I was wrong to expect a breeder to pay for health tests once she had sold a dog.

I did not and do not expect a breeder to pay for health tests on a dog already sold.  What I do expect is that once health tests have been done and paid for by the owner who is then going to incurr even greater costs in treatment, that the breeder, who has or should have a vested interested in the scoring of the hips should pay for it if they want the score.  After all, and as I've already said, it is of no benefit to the owner but is or should be of importance to the breeder.

I am well aware that a dog is not a product but the moral obligation is on the breeder to investigate and find the fault in her breedeing lines and inform the people she has sold pups to just as it for a manufacturer to find the problems in his design and manufacturing procedures and inform customers who may have bought other 'damaged' goods.  But of course, some people will just nit pick for the sake of it and chose to misconstrue what is bewing said to score points.

As I understand it, the formula for heritability of HD is

             H2 = Vgenetics/ Vgenetics + V variance due to environment

H2= heritability index
Vgenetics = variance due to genetics
Venvironment = variance due to environmental influences   

Jo,  That equation was illustrated in one of the links that I posted earlier on this thread.  In the report the quation is immediately followed by the statement "Thus, heritability is defined as an estimate of how much environmental factors play in the expression of the inherited disease". 

From this report and other studies, it seems to be stating that there has to be a genetic predisposition present in an animal for any environmental factor to have any effect.

BUT-what do I know?I have only reared 100's of large breed dogs without ever 1 case of HD.A 50 year research project!!Who can claim that?
Oh-I feed add lib as well-always have.I don't know how much to feed,but my dogs have always known-it is plain common sense nature my friends.
So my view on HD is NUTRITION NUTRITION get it right

The gsdfederation articles (also linked earlier on this thread) would state otherwise. It clearly points to hip dysplasia being a hereditary, genetic disease and the emergence can be influenced by over exercise and over-feeding.  However, these things on their own do not produce HD - the dog has to be genetically pre-disposed and "there is no value in restricting the diet of animals not pre-disposed".

HD is not NUTRITION it is genetic.

> that once health tests have been done

> that the breeder, who has or should have a vested interested in the scoring of the hips should pay for it if they want the score.

The point is the 'health testing' is the scoring, what you have done is diagnostic tests on the effects on your dog of HD.

Dogs can have very high scores and little effect, and relatively low scores, but in conjuction with other issues quite severe effects.

>I am well aware that a dog is not a product but the moral obligation is on the breeder to investigate and find the fault in her breedeing lines and inform the people she has sold pups to

So without a score your breeder and other breeders and owners and lovers of your breed do not have the 'relevant' information to do the above.

> the moral obligation is on the breeder to investigate and find the fault in her breedeing lines and inform the people she has sold pups to

Using information supplied by the owner - both anecdotal, in case of skin or digestive issues, as well as specific and measurable results of any health tests such as vet reports and BVA scores.  Either way, the owner must be willing to record and share this information.  In your case, if your vet did appropriate x-rays (which I'm sure they would have needed to), then it would have been a simple matter to submit them to the BVA.  The BVA charge is somewhere between £30 and £50 (sorry can't remember the breakdown) so it's a relatively small price to pay - the largest cost is for the x-ray and sedation.  In the event that an owner genuinely couldn't afford to pay the BVA fee then I wouldn't be surprised to find some breeders, or stud dog owners, would be willing to assist.  I don't believe this is the breeders responsibility as such but I do feel that good breeders might be more interested in the results than in quibbling over costs.  I have a dog that might one day be used at stud and I would seriously consider helping, particularly if I don't have many progeny scored.  It all depends on circumstance :)

>The BVA charge is somewhere between £30 and £50 (sorry can't remember the breakdown)

The BVA charge is exactly £50. :-) As you say, once satisfactory x-rays have been taken (with  the right ID on) then there's little point in not sending them off.

>I did not and do not expect a breeder to pay for health tests on a dog already sold.  What I do expect is that once health tests have been done and paid for by the owner who is then going to incurr even greater costs in treatment, that the breeder, who has or should have a vested interested in the scoring of the hips should pay for it if they want the score.

Without the score the available information is limited, and certainly no use to the breed. The score would then be in the public domain, and anyone would have free access to it. If you believe that the problem has come from the breeder's negligence then the evidence to back up your claim is there; scoring would be to your benefit as much as anyone else's.

> some people will just nit pick for the sake of it and chose to misconstrue what is bewing said to score points.

Er quite!

Still, I don't think you and I are ever going to agree on how much HD is a hereditary condition. Try to evaluate the published material with a more open mind. That's what I always do, and it helps to gain a realistic idea of what is happening.

And I don't think you and I will agree either on what is, and is not, the breeder's responsibility. You say:

> the moral obligation is on the breeder to investigate and find the fault in her breedeing lines and inform the people she has sold pups to...

To be honest, it is unbelievably simplistic to think that this one person can investigate and find 'the fault' (as if it's a single gene at work!) Goodness knows, HD has been being investigated by teams of scientists for decades now and they haven't found the answers yet.

And as you yourself said back in your first post that your dog "comes from parents with good scores",  it seems to me that the breeder has done all she could to reduce risk.

Hi Guys,I don't know much about these forums,and just noticed this on my lists and comments I made in April last year.
I was ridiculed and belittled by many as is what usually happens on these forums.Ignorant and anonymous individuals who are like sheep and follow the mob and are great at parroting any info they choose.
I am surprised there is no more discussion since April 12-this is a (the) major problem involving large breeds as you would be aware,and the 'experts' still have no answer.
They have been at it for over 50 years,and still nothing published.
Does barking up the wrong tree sound familiar?
I am not here to score points-actually I don't give a damn what many of you stubbornly believe-I only care for the welfare of dogs-I think we all should,and do some study from scientific sites,and from adjustments with your own stock.If you are lucky like me and have intimate nutritional and husbandry experience over many years,my words will be very familiar to you.
The bottom line with most things in this corrupt world is money-remember that well!
There is no money in simply preventing problems.

There is no simple answer as it isn't a simple issue with one cause.

It has a major genetic component and decades of hip scoring and selection have improved the levels of clear dogs both in OFA statistics and reduced mean scores under the UK scheme, if you take results on a rolling basis.

The BVA mean score sheets do not show the improvements so well as they include all results from the start.

If you compare different decades (for UK look at the Kennel club health group reports, and in OFA hip statistic reports) you will see that evaluating and breeding for good hips has worked.

Sadly this does not help the majority of dogs who are bred haphazardly from untested stock, but in the subset of responsibly bred dogs overall great improvements have occurred.

Think, in fact, you may be confusing people not agreeing with your point of view as being ridicule.

Any of us who breed or have owned a breed effected (and most are) have looked at the problem of HD in detail and most of us have come to the conclusion that this is a multi faceted problem and over 50 years of research supports this view.

We may not have continued to discuss this as a subject because there is little left to say it is more important that people use every tool available to them including testing as many animals as possible and certainly breeding animals, researching the results of animals in the pedigree as far back as possible and advising others of good husbandry.

Thanks Nova, you addressed that part of the previous posters issue with the thread very well, I had opted not to as I couldn't think how to get it across succinctly :)