If he's lambing at the moment - he will be very busy! I speak from experience and with relief that all my ewes have lambed now :)

I had the same last year with one of my pups going to a farming lady.  She too was knee deep in lambs and had to get someone in so she and her friend could visit me, only about a week before  they were due to actually go.

I would steer people towards a puppy I felt was right for them, as the breeder, but that is different to what that gentleman was asking. Just me, but I find people who live on farms often keep the dogs outside (certainly collies are often seen as livestock, not a much loved family pet), would this be ok with you if this is his plan? Would have been very easy for him to explain in the first place why he is so busy? Just seems like an odd person to me.

I agree Marisa, my thoughts exactly, no idea why he didn't answer my questions straight away and needed pushing. For all I know he might not be telling the truth and you're right, I wouldn't be happy for my pup to be an outside dog. They aren't show quality so are for pet homes but they are carefully bred with excellent low hip/elbow scores and clear eyes etc. (parents not pups) so have done my best to provide people with lovely healthy pets and I want them to be family members. I'm hoping they are indoor ones though as he previously had non working breeds. I will definitely be asking though.

Some farmers use their cockers as gundogs so they would more than likely be kept outside if that was their purpose. I would just be blunt and explain that they are used to living inside and you would only let them go to homes where this will continue.

He says he always keeps dogs inside and doesn't like them kept outside. I'm still reserving judgement until I meet him tomorrow, jury is still out.

The loveliest family have just visited and chosen one of my two favourites, really pleased with that home. Only three left unspoken for now with the viewing booked for tomorrow. I am going to be so relieved when every pup has a good home where I feel they will be happy and well cared for. I'm pleased this one is sold as my dd's best friend has been badgering her Mum to have him all the way through and the Mum wisely has said no, repeatedly. So her Mum can rest in peace now! He is a gorgeous pup though, his new family will be very blessed. His name is Wally. Am I the only breeder that gives all the pups temporary names?!

Plenty of people living on farms keep their dogs inside -it's no more a rule that such people always keep their dogs outside, than that everyone who breeds dogs and live in Wales is a puppy farmer. ;)

Am I the only breeder that gives all the pups temporary names?!

I think most do. :) Sometimes they stick forever as well -Dot from my last litter was so nicknamed because she had a small white dot on her chest (now long gone) and although it isn't her pedigree name, it's stayed her pet name. Others have been far too silly to keep as names, whether by me or others. I've had Terminator (had a white T on the chest), T2 (same thing, next litter!) Splodge (big white patch on chest), Heart Girl (heart shape on chest) Ridgie (fur ridge on face), Big Bugger (self explanatory LOL!) etc.

ive named all my pups :) and like goldmali alot have kept the names or their new family have named them and weve called them that name :)

>Others have been far too silly to keep as names, whether by me or others.

I had a pup that was the smallest and cheekiest in the litter.  He stayed later than the rest, as too many people wanted him for the wrong reason.  Then, out of the blue, I received an enquiry from people who had had a pup from me a few years earlier.

The outcome was that I invited them to visit with their dog.  Within 10 minutes they were rolling around and playing (the dogs not the people), and I knew this was the home.

I just can't believe that they still call him CHEEKY CHOPS.  :-)

the last litter we had we called 1 of the boys dozer he was massive!! and would wade in at food time and play time lol hes name stayed with him :)

My last litter we had 2 dog pups - one was called scooby, one was doo.  Luckily Doo had his name changed but Scooby remained Scooby!   I always have pet names to differentiate between them when young but as soon as their new owners pick them they start getting called their 'real' names.

The farmer chap has cancelled, has a sick horse apparently. I'm actually relieved though was happy to meet him before deciding. Not sure whether he will rearrange a new time or whether he plans to leave it, he didn't say. Got a lady coming 300 miles tomorrow, pretty sure she will have our final girl that we have held back for her.

What have you kept for yourself?

We're not keeping any. I'm hoping to go back to work full time in the summer and it wouldn't be fair on a pup. I have wavered occasionally and been tempted, my favourite is a boy called Alfie who is adorable however he was picked fairly quickly so has a home to go to. We have an adventurous boy left who is lovely natured but his adventurous nature probably implies he will need attention, time and lots of exercise so he's not for us though he is super natured. The smallest boy I think will go last and he is so gentle and cuddly it will be tempting but I really can't. I mustn't. I really mustn't. Though it would be company for my bitch and we live in the New Forest with fab walks on the doorstep and two would be such fun to walk. But no, I can't. I mustn't. Nope, really can't.

Could I ask why you bred a litter if you had no intention of keeping one to work or show?

Mainly because my dd wanted the experience. My bitch is bred from very healthy lines, had all the health tests, hip/elbow scores extremely low, clear eyes etc. which is why we chose her. We chose the stud carefully and he is lovely. We've produced super puppies who are just lovely and I'm very proud of them. My previous litter 12 years ago was an Irish Setter from excellent lines, grandfather was Chicago Bear and she had way more red than black in her pedigree and we chose her stud carefully, had her tested for CLADS etc. and her pups went to a mix of show and pet homes, I gave show buyers pick of the litter before the pet buyers. I didn't keep one then either but my prodigee there were placed in many shows even if I didn't show them. This litter were always intended for pet homes with optimum health and free of genetic problems as far as I know. That's why it is a one off. I know the show world is a snobby world I was told that by the show buyers who bought my Irish Setters so I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there is snobbery around having a litter without the intention of showing.

. This litter were always intended for pet homes with optimum health and free of genetic problems as far as I know. That's why it is a one off. I know the show world is a snobby world I was told that by the show buyers who bought my Irish Setters so I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there is snobbery around having a litter without the intention of showing.

It's not snobbery, it's common sense. If we want breeds to continue to LOOK like their breeds, they need to be shown. You only need to look at most pet bred dogs around to see they look nothing like they should (yellow eyes on chocolate Labradors, tall legs and long faces on Cavaliers as just two common examples) -and surely pet buyers deserve a dog looking like the breed they have chosen? I hope the pups were all endorsed.

I disagree with you. There wouldn't be room in the show ring for all Golden Retriever and West Highland Terriers owners! I think it's ok to buy from good lines, carefully select a stud for the right reasons making sure all health checks are done on both dam and sire and have just one litter. But again, I realise there is snobbery around so again, I will leave it there.

I'm not sure I'd class it as snobbery.

I would say its caring for the breed and trying to do the best for the future.

How do you know you have a good example of the breed if you only have your own opinion?

Health tests are important but there are other things to consider too.

Hi BenjiW you took the bate hook,line and sinker from an 'old fox'.

Who is the old fox?

Lucky for your "dd" that you didn't have serious problems with the whelping or the puppies then! Someone who recently used my imported dog on her well bred, health tested bitch has just had an absolute disaster of a "litter". She nearly lost her bitch, lost all but one of the pups and her daughter is so upset. And she was breeding to keep a puppy for herself ...

I just can't see the point of breeding a litter just to be pets. Ok, you've done the health tests but that is just a part of responsible breeding. I wouldn't call the show world snobby - they tend to be people who have the best interests of their breed at heart.

"Mainly because my dd wanted the experience." Yikes, no way would I have risked my bitch, and possible pups, if I hadn't gone into it for the sole purpose of having a puppy to train on (as both parents are fabby workers). Just couldn't justify it.

If we want breeds to continue to LOOK like their breeds, they need to be shown

Goldmali agree with this entirely, we brought our male DDB from a show kennel although he has always been purely another family member and pet. If I had just looked at a litter where there was no aim to continue bloodlines or to keep a puppy behind i most probably wouldn't have wanted a puppy as it shows the breeder think the litter is of a high enough quality to represent their kennel name and to show/work.

When i look at other pet litters where the reasoning that they are good examples is based on the opinion of the owner and breeder themselves, some don't even match up to the breed standard such as: no bone substance, little and no muscle and no wrinkles at all. Not saying BenjiW that your litter will turn out like this but I would have though one of the main reasons for having a litter would be to keep a puppy back for yourself to show or work not just for the experience when it carries so so many risks.

>There wouldn't be room in the show ring for all Golden Retriever and West Highland Terriers owners!

Oh absolutely!  They are so overbred by backyard and one off breeders there would be no hope of everyone getting in the ring.  They aren't exactly in short supply from Show breeders either so there's really no need to breed a litter that is from unshown parents.

This isn't snobbery - it's common sense - there are far too man dogs in rescue for one thing, and surely everyone who buys a pedigree pup deserves the best that money can buy, including that the pup grows up to the size shape and temperament they expect from that breed?

>My previous litter 12 years ago was an Irish Setter from excellent lines, grandfather was Chicago Bear and she had way more red than black in her >pedigree

Have I missed something here?  I have never seen an Irish Setter who is Black, or had black on them.  I have however seen Red and White Setters   the only Setter I know of with red and black would be the Gordon Setter, but I wouldn't expect them to be bred together - they are different breeds

>> My previous litter 12 years ago was an Irish Setter from excellent lines, grandfather was Chicago Bear and she had way more red than black in her >pedigree
> Have I missed something here?&nbsp; I have never seen an Irish Setter who is Black, or had black on them.&nbsp; I have however seen Red and White Setters <IMG alt=confused src="/images/confused.gif">&nbsp; the only Setter I know of with red and black would be the Gordon Setter, but I wouldn't expect them to be bred together - they are different breeds

I think the reference is to the red and black writing on the pedigree :)

Ahhh Thank You

Being a 'Show Breeding Snob' I don't think of pedigrees in terms of Red and Black  - where's that rolley-eyed wotsit?

Can't let this go without comment !

Whoops ! pressed the wrong button but trying again.

Can't let this go without comment ! Why are you so quick to condemn Benjiw for breeding a litter and not having a show /keep back agenda ? Seems to me that she loves her breed, has done her homework and has done a great job in producing a litter of quality puppies for loving pet homes. What more do you want ? Without educated and principled breeders like this, where else do  puppy buyers go ? to the Free ads and  rubbish websites that's where ! To the delight of the puppy farmers, who don't give a dam for welfare and breed standard

Take a step back and think about what the show ring has done to some of our beloved breeds. Do you honestly condone the breeding of dogs that cannot exercise freely, respire normally and reproduce without intervention? Well this is what the show scene has done at its most extreme. Yes, in many breeds showing is an opportunity to exhibit the finest of the breed but sadly this is not the case with others. Showing is a hobby , dogs are a passion. There are those with the time and energy to combine both and there are others who love the breed, are extremely knowledgeable about it and who wish to breed to perpetuate the very best of that breed, albeit for the pet home market.

I count myself among the latter !

> has done her homework and has done a great job in producing a litter of quality puppies for loving pet homes. What more do you want ?

All that and a demonstration that she is breeding from dogs typical of the breed so the purchaser will have some assurance that is what they are getting.

> Do you honestly condone the breeding of dogs that cannot exercise freely, respire normally and reproduce without intervention?

Absolutely not, exagerations in some breeds have been allowed to happen in the past but it seems to me only in the show ring under the Kennel Club can these be corrected.  Pet suppliers are more likely to simply continue meeting the demand of that section of the public that demand these exagerations.

But this, of course applies to the minority of breeds and therefore has no bearing on the principal of the pet buyer deserving their typical example of the breed they desire.

He says he always keeps dogs inside and doesn't like them kept outside. I'm still reserving judgement until I meet him tomorrow, jury is still out.

I think it is probably a real misconception today that farmers keep their dogs outside it probably dates back to years and years ago when many people kept dogs outside in kennels rather than in the house, I can't think of anyone I know with working dogs who keep them outside. Unless they have a very large pack. A farmer having two or three dogs it is very rare today that they are kept outside IME.

I know you are writing off this farmer whose excuses are probably very legit, (you just don't understand them) but a dog is generally for life with this type of owner, a dog has lots of land and exercise of the body and mind, does not end up in a house where it may not get enough exercise as an adult, where it may be overfed, end up overweight, be with people who do not really understand what a dog needs, how to train it and gets flustered during the puppy stage and re-homed during the adolescent stage. :-(

A farmer will cope with all that very well, your pup will be brought up well and have a good life, I'd plump for a farmer any day at least you know the probability of your pup being a keeper by him is more certain, today you can't say that about a lot of people with dogs, you only have to look at the rescue centres, the army guy and the farmer would be top of my list for potential owners so far.

You need to think long term ownership as well as everything else, and with all the problems of modern life, jobs, relationship breakdowns, time to train, knowledge of dogs, hours changing at work, so many things cause dogs to be re-homed. I would be biting the hands off a farmer wanting my pup.

It's a good solid home. :-)

I think it is probably a real misconception today that farmers keep their dogs outside it probably dates back to years and years ago when many people kept dogs outside in kennels rather than in the house, I can't think of anyone I know with working dogs who keep them outside. Unless they have a very large pack. A farmer having two or three dogs it is very rare today that they are kept outside IME.

I'm sorry but I disagree, there are numerous show people who keep their dogs in kennels and having kept horses at various farms in my neighbourhood over a number of years farmers do keep dogs outside. They also breed them like they breed their other animals, without health tests and very often without KC registration. They're often just another animal on the farm, not a pet and definately not a show dog.

They're often just another animal on the farm,

Working dogs are far more than that............... I can't speak for all farmers obviously, those that breed I also can't speak for, I'm purely speaking in the experience of the dogs and farmers I know of, who do not breed their dogs and treat them extremely well. Not all farmers breed their dogs, that is like saying all people who show do and all pet owners do.......... :-D

Though these pups do not appear to be from working lines so a pup of this breed is probably being sort of as a companion, but that is down to our OP to find out during the vetting.

Carrington, we all speak as we find:-) but farmers are extremely strapped for cash at the moment and it is a very popular breed for pets that he's interested in ........

:-D And I thought I was the cyncial one.......

I know we must think of these things too, but that is where our intuition when vetting along with the correct questioning needs to come in, but as this is the most popular breed being bred of all time, everyone and anyone could be interested in just breeding from these pups endorsed or not. (Picking on the poor farmer :-D)

Any pet owner these pups go to could become a BYB with no knowledge, health checks or care given to breeding. BYB's (our lovely pet owners) are the largest group of breeders in this country, not the show dog owner or the farmer.

It is obviously worth checking that we are not dealing with a puppy farmer here any landline needs googling to see what comes up as well as an address check, also a visit to the premises which many of us do, it is all down to the careful vetting we give.

But, the good old pet owner is who we should all most fear abusing our pups and passing them on.

I'm with you Chatsworth. Don't think I would sell to a farmer tbh. See too many collies on the internet being got rid of by farmers because they are too old/won't work/had an early litter and want rid etc and I haven't liked the living conditions of many of the ones I see kept on farms. I know this pup would most likely go for a pet but too many farmers see their dogs either as part of the machinery or cash cows imo.

I'm with you Chatsworth. Don't think I would sell to a farmer tbh. See too many collies on the internet being got rid of by farmers because they are too old/won't work/had an early litter and want rid etc and I haven't liked the living conditions of many of the ones I see kept on farms. I know this pup would most likely go for a pet but too many farmers see their dogs either as part of the machinery or cash cows imo.

Lucky for your "dd" that you didn't have serious problems with the whelping or the puppies then!

I have never even heard the abbreviation "DD" before but assume it means "darling daughter"? If so that brings back memories of my first Papillon litter. The litter had been planned for so long, I had even picked the dog of my dreams BEFORE I even had a bitch, spotted him at Crufts and just totally fell in love, this was long before he became a Champion in 7 (I think it is now) different countries, in fact not even one. My daughter was then 14 and she was so looking forward to this litter, and I had promised her the puppy we kept would essentially be hers, to train and show, although in my name. Well the bitch gave birth to two stillborn puppies, no live ones, and it's one of my worst memories ever. I was upset, my daughter was crying for weeks absolutely heartbroken -mainly for the sake of the bitch!, and the bitch was distraught.

I don't know what breed is being spoken about here. My dad is a farmer as was his father. Always had Labradors, always lived in the house and always stayed until they passed away! They maybe strapped for cash, some of them but so are many other people too who live in surburbia. My dogs have lived the life of Riley on the land!!

Either way I feel meeting someone face to face is often needed and someone are crap on the phone as my dad is, hates text messaging and can't email for toffee!! He's from that era where you speak face to face if possible...

>the army guy and the farmer would be top of my list for potential owners so far.

Mine too. Farm dogs are never left shut indoors alone from 8.30 to 5.30, five days a week; that in itself is a major plus!

The Labs my father and his father have had we're never worked but played in the fields, sat in the vehicles with them etc and being dogs there were no litters to be had. All the farmers around here have a dog, never ever hear of litters as my Dad knows how much of a dog nut I am and would tell me.

I think some of you are very quick to judge at times and very quick to tarnish others without looking at all sides and angles.

As for having a litter for the reasons given I can't get my head around it, but many breeders in the show world do just this!! Also I have to give credit all health tests were done and she sought a decent sire for the litter. There is nothing to say either way if the bitch was a good specimen or not, one would hope so and that the owner of sire agrees it was..
All I say is people will breed regardless of what is said, I think if health checks are done then at least we are all heading in the right direction.. If the KC said no litter to be registered without health checks then this litter would still be A OK!!

Farm dogs are never left shut indoors alone from 8.30 to 5.30, five days a week; that in itself is a major plus!

Sorry buy I think this is a bit of a sweeping statement. I know of a couple of farmers wives who work away from the farm and their husbands are out doing contract work, they definately don't leave their dogs in the yard on their own, too tempting for them to disappear one way or another.

Besides I think it was a bit odd if this was going to be a much loved 24/7 pet he didn't want to choose the pup himself.

>Besides I think it was a bit odd if this was going to be a much loved 24/7 pet he didn't want to choose the pup himself.

There are breeders on here who insist on matching the puppy to the new owner and don't allow potential owners to choose their own.

agree with suejaw here 100% i know of so called "good show/breeders" that have other breeds just to breed litters from so thay have the money for showing their main breed!!! now tell me this is the right thing to do?? NO it isnt and theres alot out there that do it PLUS dont health test the dogs :( ..i dont show anymore now and dont like the bitchyness that goes with it "and it does happen" i caught some1 calling our girl at a show because our dog always got placed before hers! :( how sad is that ....and theres surpose to be showmanship!! i love my dogs and if i was to breed again that means id have to show too :( but on the other side of the coin there are some wonderful ppl that show too and i have met some lovely friends...nothing is black and white!

There are breeders on here who insist on matching the puppy to the new owner and don't allow potential owners to choose their own.

I agree entirely, it is not a downside at all. :-)

I much prefer to match pup to owner, after all we know the characters, not the new puppy owners who only see them for a few hours. Often you have a middle of the range group who will fit many lifestyles and those I'm happy to point puppy owners to, but there are always the more fiesty, or laid back or potentials for the show/working world which people rely on us helping them to choose, the breeder knows best and should always have a hand in matching them up.

One of my puppy owners did very much the same as the farmer and although she came to view my bitch and me many times prior to the litter being born, she admitted she would be useless at choosing her own pup and left me twice over the years to choose her pup for her and quite rightly I chose her her ideal dogs.

The trust between breeder and owner is paramount, nothing wrong in someone asking you to choose the pup, in fact it often makes life easier than someone pushing for one that would be better placed elsewhere. :-)

> As for having a litter for the reasons given I can't get my head around it, but many breeders in the show world do just this!!

Whether a breeder keeps a puppy from every litter (I don't because I can't) every litter should be bred with some purpose in addition to the resulting pups being companions.  If the ONLY aim if for all the litter to be pets then ethically in any breed that is not numerically small, and has large numbers in rescue, then I couldn't justify it.

Every litter I have bred has been planned to hopefully fit in and complement my breeds small gene pool in this country and I hope that at least one of each sex may go on to contribute to keeping the breed going on in good heart.

I am quite sad when this doesn't happen (as I feel it was a waste of the litters potential, even though I am happy with them being loved pets), but have been lucky enough that some at least get shown, others have been bred from, even adding to the gene pools in other countries, and I am now in a position to use some of their descendants in my own breeding program.

But that's me, so if the 'casual breeder' has to breed a litter, at least they should do ti properly, with all health tests etc, and of course take lifelong responsibility for the puppies produced so they do not add to the rescue 'problem' and just as importantly the pups they breed are not used to add to this, which it is impossible to guarantee, but good home vetting can minimise.

I agree entirely, it is not a downside at all

I do agree that with an experienced breeder this can have advantages to both breeder and buyer.

In this instance however, I'm pleased the breeder didnt choose for the farmer and that he didn't turn up. If it was me I wouldn't feel comfortable letting him have one of my pups.

yes brainless you are right in what youve wrote imo!

There are breeders on here who insist on matching the puppy to the new owner and don't allow potential owners to choose their own.
I much prefer to match pup to owner.

This is ok when you (breeder) have met prospective owners, have spoken on phone and emailed them..............in other words you have got to know them

The OPs suggestion of choosing a puppy for someone she had never met and had no idea of their personality etc would, I imagine, be a nightmare/impossibility that very few -if any- of you would quite rightly even consider.

Speaking purely as a pet owner, this thread has been very interesting ! I've never bred a litter and never will so it's good to hear from the "other side" of dogs so to speak!
I don't think a breeder would rate me as a good pet owner on paper, but I take great care of my GR, both physically and mentally, he's fed well and is a much loved pet, but I work, term time, I live in a ground flat with a small garden in a built up area although I have parks and fields on my doorstep and work hard to do the best for my pet.
I was 2hrs at my goldies breeder who luckily for me worked term time too, and knew the holidays I get, but I'm sure other breeders would just right me off on the phone. I know people lie to breeders because of this, and I have had one breeder who put the phone down on me as soon as I admitted I worked, which after all paid for the pup!
I was quite happy for the breeder to tell me about the pups personality and we both ended up agreeing on the boy I got, after all the breeder knew the litter better than me.
The breeder I went to kept a pup for herself, I just assumed most breeders did this to be honest, I don't think I could make the commitment of having a litter to give them all away.