Hi,I'm hoping to take my bitch to a stud dog next week,the owner wants the whole stud fee up front,and if no pups a return next time.My question is,what happens if I see some up and coming younger dogs that I might like to use and don't want a return in 6/7 months time to the original dog?How do other stud dog owners charge?With most horses it's no foal no fee.
Thanks.

In my breed it's normal to pay the entire stud fee at time of mating, and as you say free return if no pups. I know some breeds charge a 'handling fee' then so much per pup - guess it depends on the norm in your breed :-)

Same with my breeds, free return, doesn't  even have to be with the same bitch or even the same dog
If no puppies after second return, well thats the luck of the draw, you pay for the stud dogs services, not for how many puppies you get...Some  people my give you a third try, but they are few and far between...
Cant see anyone refunding  you to take your bitch to someone elses dog, as you have had a change of heart...and then there is always next time for the youngster with your girl, when someone else has used him and you have seen what he has produced.
Wendy

Yes, pay up front and free return if needed.

I think you're question is more to do with the fact that if the first mating didn't take and you decided to use another stud dog completely should you then get any refund from the first stud dog owner?

Well, No........... not unless you could prove that the first stud was indeed infertile, the stud dog owner is still giving their time to you and of course their dogs sperm if things work out great if not any upstanding and reputable stud dog owner will give a repeat, some maybe even 3 goes.

But no refund if you decide not to take them up on that offer and use another dog. :-)

Then you have lost your fee, if that is how that stud owner does things.  It is pretty standard practice. 

In my breed we tend to not pay until after pups born, but then we are a small breed where we all know and trust each other.

Stud terms are very much up to the stud dog owner, and for the bitch owner to agree or go elsewhere.

It does seem to vary depending on breed. In my main breed it is becoming increasingly common to pay a non-refundable handling fee and then a price per pup produced. With my last litter the stud's owner only charged me for live pups, which I thought very reasonable. I was more than prepared to pay for all 8 puppies, including the 2 still born, but was only asked to pay for 6.

IMO it's a much fairer way of doing things.

The same. Stud fee up front and if no pups then a return free mating.

If you decide to go elsewhere, thats fine but you will have lost your stud fee to the orginal dog.  The offer was there, you just decided not to take them up on it :) So you will pay a 2nd stud fee to the new dog.

In my breed we tend to take a stud fee from the dam's owner when the pups are on the ground, the 'green form' isn't signed until payment has been made so the pups are not able to be registered.  It's a small breed and we all tend to know who's breeding when and what dog they've used so no-one can disappear into the ether.  Stud fee is the same price as a puppy.

When my friend mated her bitch last year - different breed but the same stud fee pricing eg. price of a pup -  she was charged a £50 handling fee on the day.  Then half the remaining fee had to be paid on confirmation of the dam being in whelp, the balance  paid when the pups were born.

I have always thought the stud fee a fairer way of doing things as it's the bitch that determines the number of pups produced and then you have the risk that live births result in lost puppies at a later stage.

Think most offer a free return but the contract is between you and the stud owner and if you want to use the dog you either agree to the terms or don't use.

I agree with most of the replies here - stud fee paid at mating, and free return if it does not take - this is pretty usual in horses too - NFFR, in fact it was always most usual than NFNF.  I often let friends pay after pups arrive, especially if it is with a bitch  who has fertility issues, however, twice last year I agreed to let friends of friends pay after pups born and heard nothing more, so no idea if pups arrived and they did not register them, or no pups.  If anyone wants to use any of the boys this year I will think twice about this arrangement.

Amongst hobby breeders it is usual to pay up front and have a free return if the bitch misses.
Most decent people wont ask for the fee if there is a low probablility of a successful outcome...ie an older bitch running out of time or fertility issues.Using an overseas dog may also be tricky to do a return.

i have to dissagree tooolz i know many show dogs whos owners take full payment at time of mateing and free return if no pups!

Not all stud dog owners are the same. I also own bitches so can see the issue from both sides. I know that the traditional way has been to take the stud fee at the time of service, but the first stud dog owners that I dealt with charged the fee after the pups were born and some were happy to wait until a couple of pups were sold. That's what I do now - and will usually wait until the first few pups have been sold. The stud fee in my breed is substantial. I would rather the bitch owner had the money in the bank to help with the raising of the litter.

I am considering charging a handling fee and a fee per pup. In fact, I think I will offer people the choice of a set fee or the price per pup  - for them to decide at the time of mating. I have never charged a full fee for a small litter - but I have never been offered any extra money by bitch owners who've had a larger than average litter!

I think that is what Toolz said, as it is the most usual arrangement,

Toolz said: >Amongst hobby breeders it is usual to pay up front and have a free return if the bitch misses.

Which tallies with what you said: > i know many show dogs whos owners take full payment at time of mateing and free return if no pups!

but stud dog owners and breeders are free to make their own agreements as they see fit, so it behoves a bitch owner to be perfectly clear what terms they are agreeing to.

What would be so wrong with only taking a stud fee once a litter is confirmed/pups whelped ? All the stud dog owner has to do is refrain from giving out the stud dogs KC number, so that if anyone decided to be deceitful they wouldn't be able to register the litter?
I used a lovely show dog recently at stud, his owner is highly respected in my breed and actually gave me the option to pay my stud fee after the mating, or when pups confirmed or whelped. I decided to just pay her there and then as even if my girl isn't in whelp (I am now pretty sure she is) then I would be more than happy to go back to her at the next season - especially as she said I could in fact return with one of my other bitches if I so wished and use one of her other dogs. You cannot say fairer than that :-)
Not everyone is the same though. I once got a very, very brief slip mating with a show dog. I knew the chances of a litter were ridiculously slim - but full stud fee taken up front and I only lived ten mins away, so it would have been so easy to keep tabs on me, had I been of a deceitful nature. I had also spoken to this breeder/exhibitor and got to know her well over the previous two years. The money was clearly too tempting. Needless to say, no pups resulted, but we did get a small litter at the following season.

> All the stud dog owner has to do is refrain from giving out the stud dogs KC number, so that if anyone decided to be deceitful they wouldn't be able to register the litter?
>

Unfortunately if the dog has a Stud Book number which is printed in the BRS it would be easy to register a litter without the stud dog owners input.

It was the ability to not sign the green form until stud fee paid that was a little insurance the stud dog owner had when waiting for the fee until after pups born.

There should surely be a strong element of trust between the stud dog owner and the bitch owner and in the vast majority of cases there would be no devious attempts to register a litter without the knowledge of the stud dog owner.... but there is always that risk I suppose, so I can understand why most prefer to take the fee at the time of the mating.

In reality I think this depends on the breed.  My toy breed stud fee is around £250 but in my other breed it's nearly a thousand pounds.  I would never, ever be able to pay this at mating and then lose it if I didn't end up with any pups.  THankfully people in my breed know me well and allow me to pay once the pups are born and a few weeks old.

we got burnt last year we tried the "pay when pups are on the ground" and guess what we never got the money, she tried advertise the pups as kc reg ,it ended up getting nasty to say the least so now pament at time of mating......it only takes 1 to do this and the trust goes! :(

I know the owners of the studs really well,and I'm sure she would wait for money,if I asked her too,I happen to live close by to my 1st 2 choices,I know one certainly won't want a pup,and the other possibly might,so thats why I've asked about payments,here before biting the bullet.

If I'm taking my girls to an outside stud I wouldn't dream of not paying in full up front, and if no pups and I don't want to use their dog again then that's down to me not the stud owner.

If we have bitches in for covering then yes, it's the fee up front, if no puppies result then you get a return mating and we are one of the few who will cover the bitch again in a year or so if the 1st mating only resulted in a singleton.

>What would be so wrong with only taking a stud fee once a litter is confirmed/pups whelped ? All the stud dog owner has to do is refrain from giving out the stud dogs KC number, so that if anyone decided to be deceitful they wouldn't be able to register the litter?

Well there's nothing 'wrong' as such - but remember that the stud owner is giving up their time, arranging their life around the bitch's optimum time - plus usually doing a good line in tea and lunch LOL. No reason they should not be compensated in some way at least.  Plus, if the bitch misses first time, they're probably doing it all again next time.

Think this, like many things, are very breed dependent, but I like the idea of the handling fee. One breeder did start it in my breed, but doesn't seem to have taken off.

M. (who incidentally has had some fabulous hospitality from stud dog owners who haven't charged up front, but it's been unexpected and very much appreciated!)

If I'm taking my girls to an outside stud I wouldn't dream of not paying in full up front, and if no pups and I don't want to use their dog again then that's down to me not the stud owner.

I paid full fees up front a couple of years ago, they took my girl and did the mating - we had to stand well away from her.  She stood well and again for a second time 2 days later.  She had previously had a litter and was ovulation tested etc but nothing from this mating.  A few weeks afterwards I found out he had missed with another bitch and that they had moved up North!  Both reasons put me off using the dog again - so I was £500 out of pocket.  I did later ask if I could use that towards a puppy from them - but that's another story....  Needless to say, hubby won't allow me to go to a stud dog where full fees are payable up front again!

I also have a stud dog and we charge handling fee + so much per live pup at 24 hours old and to be paid within 7 days when we then release paperwork etc.  Had a bitch late last year who went on to have 7 pups - owner asked if she could pay in installments when she got deposits - we agreed as it seemed reasonable, I quickly got the money for 3 but had to wait until the pups actually left for the remainder - hence puppies were not registered until they had gone to their new homes.  Won't be doing that again as I don't think you should have to wait for paperwork and we were getting worried about ever getting our money.

That's how I do it ridgielover. On the few occasions my boys have been used, I have waited until the puppies have been sold before asking for a fee. Ditto small litters and/or expensive vet bills in the event of whelping problems, I don't charge a fee at all. Yep. I could sure use the money , especially these days, but the bitch owners are usually friends and are active in the breed. It's my way of giving something back for all the support and advice over the years.

There is no right or wrong way, it is down to each stud owners preference & as we can see vary, even within a breed. As long as your happy with the arrangement..ie its written down in a contract or you know the stud owner well enough to agree verbally.

Most of the stud arrangements I have been involved with are, pay at time of mating & a return mating if no pups. A couple of times stud owners(both well known to me) said pay when I have pups but this felt wrong & they did have the money at time of mating. My most recent arrangement was pay when pups born which although it felt wrong(to me), I agreed to.

Not a direct reply to you Jan.

A lot of people are saying you are paying for the services of the dog and once he's done his stuff payment should be forthcoming. That is true to some extent, but looking at it from a bitch owners point of view, the reason you are requiring his services is because you want a result (i.e. puppies) at the end of it and to lose £600+ in one go is a lot of money to lose. I know plenty of people that won't use the same stud dog twice. I myself used my initial choice for Esme on 2 consecutive seasons, she missed on both occasions. Both times I progesterone tested, the second time I vaccinated against herpes, and scans to see if she was pregnant so expense on top of stud fee incurred. Luckily I was only charged a one-off £100 handling fee and felt able to use a different dog on our next attempt without being too much out of pocket.

On the following season, I used a different dog, again 3 x progesterone tests, vaginal swab and resulting antibiotics, CHV vaccine, scan and the non-refundable handling fee (£125). This time I did get my puppies (8 born including 2 stillborn, the last stillborn by caesarian). As I said before the stud dogs owner only charged me for the live pups, which I thought very reasonable as I was prepared to pay for all 8.

It is a two-way deal IMO, and the handling-fee method is a much fairer way of doing things for both parties.

Just seen this thread.

We have a stud dog who I do ask a fee up front, then free return if no pups.  He has not missed and will in fact only mate a bitch if she is ovulating, so a careful stud and producing quality pups.  But, should there be only one pup or an expensive C section I will allow a repeat mating at a greatly reduced stud fee.  Its give and take.   I always ask for the stud fee at time of mating as once had someone who I did not know come, use the dog, said the money would be coming, it never did.  Bitch had pups, she did not ask for the stud receipt or pedigree - pups were sold without papers at a reduced price.  Not good practice.  Of course with people we know , and if they are strapped for cash, we would make an allowance.  But if someone cannot afford a stud fee, how on earth can they raise a litter properly.  Also where is the trust.  Should the stud dog owner default on a return free stud or the money back you can always report to the Kennel Club who would take a dim view of this.
I just believe, pay up, do things correctly, and all is well, I never ever expect to take any of my bitches to a stud dog and not have cash in an envelope (her dowry I call it).  Just my opinion though. 

> not have cash in an envelope

I have had my envelope ready for quite some time but its hard to not dip in but I have been strong. I have saved for quite some time to get the envelope ready but luckily my breed stud fee is no where near as expensive as some breeds.

Lily Mc, I agree that the stud dog owner has to arrange their life around the visiting bitch and offer cups of tea etc, but I am afraid none of that is necessarily worth hundreds of pounds. I actually think a handling fee is a good idea, with further payment given should a litter arise.
I don't have any objections to paying a stud fee at the time of mating, as you can see from my other post on this thread. But, in an ideal world, stud fees would only be paid in full once a litter is at least confirmed. I agree about this being breed specific though - certainly, if I was in a breed whereby stud fees were the price of a puppy (£1000 in some cases), I would most certainly not be wanting to part with that amount of money until I knew the mating had been successful.

Lexy, I always have my cash with me in an envelope when I take a bitch for mating. The latest stud dog owner gave me the option to pay her once pups/confirmed or whelped, but I happily paid up front as I couldn't have met a fairer stud dog owner. Plus, had she not been in whelp and I had just kept that money in my envelope - as was an option, it would literally have stayed there until her next season - at which point, the same stud dog owner would have been offered it again as I know I would definitely have returned to her.

It's interesting though, as in my breed stud fees as far as I can tell have always been the price of a puppy. 

I have journals where the advertised stud fee was 8 and 10 guineas, and that was the same price for puppies (people seemed less embarrassed about stating prices in breed adverts then it seems).

Yet people expected to pay the fee up front and have a free return if no puppies.

I don't think prices have gone up compared to wages either as I know in the 60's my Dad earned £15 a week on a good wage, and the Miners in 1973 went on strike to get a minimum wage of £15 a week.

I paid about 2/3d's of my monthly wage for my first purebred puppy of a different but similarly (then) priced breed.  Puppies in my breed are now just over half what my daughter takes home each month in her office job, on £18000 a year.

I have certainly always had the money to pay the fee up front, but have always been asked to pay once pups born.  As a breed we have low numbers born and we do all know each other or can vouch for a bitch owner.  Stud dog owners do expect to board bitches, meet people half way, or even come to the bitch owner.  One of my girls spent two weeks the first time and a month (split season) the second time with the stud owner and they met us half way to pick her up.  That is a lot of time and trouble.  They have also helped get a puppy up to it's new owner in easy stages (Bristol to Far North/Scotland),

Both breeders and stud owners main aim is to produce quality puppies to keep the breed in good heart.

i havnt read all posts so sorry if this as been siad!

if some1 that has studed pedigree's for 2years ,had helth tests done and paid for blood tests then WHY wouldnt you also save for the stud fee, vets money and everything eles should have been saved too ,isnt that what good breeding is all about??? making sure you have everything coverd before hand!!!?

just saying this isnt to any1 x

I wouldn't WANT to pay later than at time of mating. Let's face it, you could then end up with a lot of outlay all at once if the bitch needed a c-section or other vet fees. I'd rather spread costs out!

Which is why I'm happy to wait until some puppies have been sold. It just shows that different arrangements suit different people. The thing to do is to ask the stud dog owner what their terms are and make sure that you are happy with them :)

It's been interesting reading different outlooks on this topic,thanks

My stud owner took a cheque off me which she only cashed when the litter were born. I would have been very happy to pay in cash at the time but she preferred to do it that way.

We have a few in our breed who wait til the stud dog has tied then say..." Sorry I havent got the money, I hope you dont mind waiting for it"

Now that is really unfair!

Well, that kind of deceitful behaviour won't get them very far in the long run, will it .....?

I only charge a handling fee at time of mating and then they can pay me the rest after pups are sold. Two reasons really. If they miss then they can go elsewhere next time if they didn't feel happy and if the bitch has a cesarian for say only one they have had a large outlay and only one pup so I then don't charge as only one pup isn't a litter in my eyes. I feel that if I cannot trust them to pay me after pups are sold then I shouldn't allow them to use my boy.

That is what the stud owner which I am now using has agreed,I pay just a deposit then rest when pups are here.

Well,we went to the stud dog,about 5 minutes after we got the dog and bitch together,he was on her with a 20 minute tie,so fingers crossed!And I gladly gave the deposit and received a receipt,and came home happy.

> We have a few in our breed who wait til the stud dog has tied then say..." Sorry I havent got the money, I hope you dont mind waiting for it"

That's awful and does make you wonder how they'll afford a C-section if they can't afford a stud fee...

Hi I have also been made aware regarding handling fees and price per live pup are now being charged, my question is , is this per live pup that is sold , for example if a litter of 5  and the bitch owner keeps  , do they just pay you for 3?

I know with ISDS dogs most stud fees are paid upfront unless the stud dog owner is having a puppy in lieu of stud fee. A friend of mine fell foul of this as his bitch had just one puppy & the stud dog owner took the puppy & was highly successful with him in trialling & as a stud dog in his own right. My friend after that always paid on the day of mating & if the stud dog's owner wanted a puppy from the litter they had to buy one.

Just a heads up this thread is from 2012 !!!

> Hi I have also been made aware regarding handling fees and price per live pup are now being charged, my question is , is this per live pup that is sold , for example if a litter of 5  and the bitch owner keeps  , do they just pay you for 3?

I would imagin it means price per live pup born probably due within a certain time frail of the birth, not pup sold as it doesn't matter if the bitches owner keeps back the stud still produced that pup.

Well yes this is what I would have thought too, so Ive certainly been stung as I was too trusting they had 6 puppies one they lost at I think a couple of weeks old , just sold 3 for I believe between £800 and £900 and  kept too and told me they would give me £50 per pup sold so £150 and no handling fee as I agreed to let her keep my boy at hers for a week or so as they are or can be a difficult breed to get mated  I travelled 70 mile to meet and drop him off and 70 mile there and 70 ,ice back to collect him too and suppled his food which i prepared and took with him , live and learn that not even people within your breed and who you think as become a friend are to be trusted

You need to get the stud agreement sorted and preferably in writing before allowing your male to be used. They way you both know where you stand. It's down to you the stud owner to set the stud terms to whatever you feel is best and then the bitch owner can decide if they wish to proceed and use him or not. The handling fee would be payed at time of maiting.

Did you have an agreement before hand?

Also normaly it's the bitches owner who travels to the studs and possibly leaves her if needed and stud owner willing.