> except the many, many of them in rescue.

That's a valid point.... it's surprising that so many end up in rescue.
A non-recognised "type" - which already has dedicated rescue organisation/s ???! I bet the number of Labradoodles outumber many recognised breeds in breed rescue.

The Labradoodle rescues must be pretty effective then, because labradoodles seem to crop up very rarely in the general rescues I look at.  Lots of staff crosses of course.

having had a quick look there i have seena few on standard rescue sites. what is slightly more alarming is the half a dozen or so labradoodle specific rescues that popped up on the first page of google with several dogs each.

additionally, a lot of rescues will not identify dogs they get in a labradoodles, correctly calling them a lab cross, or can't work out at all what they are supposed to be! i saw one that i thought looked like a really weird flat coat, another that looked like a chesapeke (sp) bay retriever gone horribly wrong, one that looked like a sight hound (how that happened i am not sure)...

the initial attempt at establishing this cross by the australian guide dogs for the blind was not without some merit, they were at least aiming for something, but it didn't work so they stopped breeding them. If you want to establish a new breed you need to know what you are looking for, know a whole hell of a lot about genetics and in a controlled way aim for a target. This has not been the case with any of these crosses.

if people want a cross there are plenty in rescue needing homes.

> A non-recognised "type" - which already has dedicated rescue organisation/s ???! I bet the number of Labradoodles outumber many recognised breeds in breed rescue.

there are 6 or 7 on the first page of google when you type it in.

my breed, bullmastiffs, are being overbred right now as they get increasingly popular :( 2 breed specific rescues for us (and one is shared with neo's). would rather we didn't even need that, but we did get our lovely rescue boy when i was a teenager from one of them (we thought he was a bully/dane cross, turned out to be a mastiff once he got some food in him lol)

While I agree entirely with your principles on breeding, I can't agree that general rescues are heavily populated with Labradoodles. By twisting the facts you only undermine the points you try to make.

It's simply too easy to breed and sell dogs indiscriminately - both purebred and crosses. The rescues are being overwhelmed because it's easy to buy and sell puppies without any lasting responsibility, assisted greatly by the arrival of the internet. This would be the case even if designer crosses had never been invented.

The point is that saying "The owners of the many Labradoodles and cockapoos out there seem happy with what they've ended up with" is no more true than saying that general rescues are heavily populated with labradoodles. I know several people with "poodle crosses" as they're correctly known who feel they were misled by the hype. One has been rehomed, and two others certainly don't have the coats that the owners were told to expect (one is wiry-haired and the other is currently shedding handfuls of wool like a moulting sheep).

agree Astarte!!!!
when we are looking for a new pup i read up about them if the pups are cross breed your not going to get what you think you are ,the cuteness goes as pups grow and then off to rehomeing kennels, im not saying all do but so many will and this is so sad ,how many people that have breed crosses will take the pup/dog back at any age if something went wrong IMO none! like Astart says breeding should be left to those that want to better the breed and have fit for purpose dogs!

Yes, I should have said owners of the labradoodles and cockapoos I have met - of which there are many. Not made it a blanket statement about these crosses as a whole.

I agree that those I know often seem to have ended up with a dog bigger than they expected, and the coats are completely unpredictable. But the owners have still been happy with their dog regardless of this. And their dogs seem to have lovely temperaments.

Obviously some buyers out there will have had more of an issue with the shedding side of things if they have been misled and have an allergy.

Most breeders of pure breeds won't take them back either, as most are BYB. Only the very responsible breeders will.

Is someone churning out huskies to sell to all and sundry really any better than someone churning out Labradoodles? The husky is more likely to need rescuing. 

Somehow the voluntary good practices of good breeders needs to be made mandatory if irresponsible breeding of any type is to be reduced. Just slagging off crosses creates an artificial division - the division should be between good and bad breeding practices, not purebred vs crosses.

> The point I was trying to make was that anyone reading this forum would be given the impression that all crossbreeding results in disastrous temperaments and unhappy owners. Meeting and walking with lots of crosses regularly, I'd say that isn't the case. The owners of the many Labradoodles and cockapoos out there seem happy with what they've ended up with.

The owners of the crosses yo have met are lucky the, I can't say the same for the majority of those I have met.  Almost everyone is disappointed in some aspect those who bought pug crosses (the ones I have most contact with) did so because they  wanted a pug, and were convinced into a cross on grounds of price or perceived health improvements.  Of those owners i have continued and frequent contact with all have gone on to buy a pug, they still love their crosses but after becoming aquainted with the real thing all decided on a Pug for the 2nd (or even 3rd) dog.  None of the crosses have got the pug temperament, and the JR crosses are snappy (as explained above).

I meet several "Ooodles" and "Poos" at Puppy parties and training.  ALL of those with pups have been sucked into believeing that their dog will not shed or moult (so have all the puggle oweners I have met, which is bizarre), most have been assured they will not cause allergies.  So when it comes down to it, the dogs are not as described or expected, but are much loved by the new owners.  The breeders?  they probably go on breeding and go on lying to buyers. 

I meet several "Ooodles" and "Poos" at Puppy parties and training.  ALL of those with pups have been sucked into believeing that their dog will not shed or moult (so have all the puggle oweners I have met, which is bizarre), most have been assured they will not cause allergies.  So when it comes down to it, the dogs are not as described or expected

Just like my brother's mother-in-law when they got there 'labradoodle' its either a F2 or F3, they know the parents where the shaggy coated ladradoodles and thats what they wanted and were told there pup would grow up to be, as well as the it wont shed. They didnt beleave me when i saw him as a pup and said that he wont have the shaggy coat untill he grew up, they are now looking for a pedigree dog.
Photo of him.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3085/4026775566_6d1b2dc867_z.jpg

>I agree that those I know often seem to have ended up with a dog bigger than they expected, and the coats are completely unpredictable. But >the owners have still been happy with their dog regardless of this. And their dogs seem to have lovely temperaments.
>
>Obviously some buyers out there will have had more of an issue with the shedding side of things if they have been misled and have an allergy.

Toon,

If you were convinced to buy an expensive cross between a Porsche and a Ford focus, being told that it would have the looks and performance of a Porsche and the reliability of the Ford and cheapness of replacement parts, then found that your PorscheX had neither the finish or the performance of the Porsche and was unreliable and expensive to repair as well, would you think you'd had a good deal?

This is what has happened to the buyers of Crosses.   Some will NEVER admit they had been duped,  because they'd have to admit to being foolish and that's just too painful.  Some recognise that they have been duped and try to get past that as they love the dog anyway, and some realise they have been duped and can't cope and send the dog to rescue or sell it on.  There is also the complication that many people seem to have LOWER expectations for a PET puppy saying well it's only a pet!!  What none of them seem to do is go to trading standards, usually because they have little or no paperwork to support their claims.   Having little to compare their pup with, since each of the litter would be different, is also a problem when trying to prove that the dog wasn't as expected.  If you buy a pure bred pug or Toy Poodle and it grows to the size of a small pony you can prove there's a problem, but it's difficult to complain when the dog has a complicated pedigree and the breeders know this - it's what they bank on!

This is my bugbear with people who crossbreed - the lies and tricks they get up to in order to sell crosses for large amounts of cash - often more money than a top flight show dog! along with their lack of care for the pups they produce and the new owners.

ive seen a ad for bull mastiff cross standard poodle, and staff cross poodle couldnt believe it was shocking

They didnt beleave me when i saw him as a pup and said that he wont have the shaggy coat untill he grew up, they are now looking for a pedigree dog.
Photo of him.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3085/4026775566_6d1b2dc867_z.jpg

You can certainly see the Poodle in that face -and doesn't it just show how little you know what you'll get when crossbreeding!

i dont like the fact they say non moulting when 9/10 they do
thats when they end up in kennels.

with good breeding comes well breed pups, you are detting what the breed should be ,thats what i ment when i said what i did....im not taking about any1 that breeds a pedigree dog but a breeder that breeds for goodness of their breed ,so you know the help is there and knowing your pup should be as healthy as possible because all tests have been done....so with cross breeding you dont get this (much)

> I can't agree that general rescues are heavily populated with Labradoodles. By twisting the facts you only undermine the points you try to make.
>

I assure you that I am not 'twisting the facts', if you have specific figures to counter my experience of the dogs i have seen in rescue please share. I have to say i have not kept tallys, but there have been lots of them in the past when i have looked. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean the person you disagree with is twisting things.

> It's simply too easy to breed and sell dogs indiscriminately - both purebred and crosses. The rescues are being overwhelmed because it's easy to buy and sell puppies without any lasting responsibility, assisted greatly by the arrival of the internet. This would be the case even if designer crosses had never been invented.

quite agree

also Toon, if you read the post that you were replying to i said

"i have seena few on standard rescue sites"

> Is someone churning out huskies to sell to all and sundry really any better than someone churning out Labradoodles? The husky is more likely to need rescuing. 

no one here is advocating that. personally if a breeder of labradoodles was aiming to establish the breed, had a definate nature, coat an d construction in mind and was doing the relevent heath testing and carefully selecting their breeding animals more power to them :) I should also think that in many ways most of the potential results of a lab/poodle cross would suit more homes than the average husky, let alone a poorly bred one.

> Somehow the voluntary good practices of good breeders needs to be made mandatory if irresponsible breeding of any type is to be reduced. Just slagging off crosses creates an artificial division - the division should be between good and bad breeding practices, not purebred vs crosses.

a very fair point

Talking of huskies there are loads of husky crosses in rescue as well as well as Lab, B collie and Staffie crosses.

Just been looking at my local rescue and there is a 5 month old Shih Tzu cross Bichon, she was apperantly brought as a christmass preasnt but now not wanted. Poor Little thing.

I get very irritated at the extremely exaggerated criticisms made of crossbreeds on the forum. I meet a lot of Labradoodles as they are very popular where I live. The ones I meet have great temperaments

Toon. I have already stated earlier that my 10 month old puppy was attacked and a piece ripped out of her face by a Labradoodle just recently, no warning, just straight into the bite. I have owned dogs for 30 years and that is the first time a dog has actually bitten one of mine. However, I must also tell you our recent experience of a gentleman telephoning to use our boy on his Poodle. He was upset that no-one that health tests would let him use their dogs. My Husband (who is kinder than me) explained that responsible breeders health tests and responsible breeders would not allow their dogs to be used in a crossbreed mating but for some unknown reason he starting talking to the gentleman about temperament. The gentlemans answer..... 'I am not bothered about temperament'. Says it all don't you think. But logically you must remember that as no responsible breeder will permit their dogs to be in a crossbreed mating then the dogs ie Labradors and Poodles or others will NOT be of good type or of good pedigree, so a not so good dog will be mated to another not so good dog and if most of the breeders of these crossbreeds have the same logic of this gentleman then they won't be interested in temperament either.

a woman on fbook the other day stated she bred her JR and schit zue (SP?) to improve the health and gene pools HOW !!!! she found it offensive i called them mongrels well tough s... i say , i also pointed out how offended breeders who have put their heart and soul into these breeds are when idiots cross them to make a quick quid

> a woman on fbook the other day stated she bred her JR and schit zue (SP?) to improve the health and gene pools HOW !!!!

Well there you go - if they aren't being registered then there's no way it could ever improve anything except her wallet.

A genuine breeder wanting to improve a gene pool would have quite a long term plan in mind, spanning decades most likely. She could be using a JRT and crossing back into Shih Tzu, but that would bring in some very obvious changes such as short coats (or even wire coats), changes in body type and structure, not to mention temperament. She would be attempting some kind of registration to make sure her endeavours were properly recorded for the future [I do think the KC should have an 'experimental' register as the GCCF does], otherwise nobody can truly verify and support her endeavours.

Or she could be "improving" the JRT (not a recognised bred anyway) by adding Shih Tzu? I am sure all folk in my local farms and stable yards who own JRTs for their ability will be delighted to get fluffy longhaired dogs in their future litters [NOT].

I met a lovely little pugalier yesterday - very sweet girl and I could see both breeds so knew exactly what it was crossed with.  Owner said he liked both breeds but was worried about the health problems in cavaliers & pugs so he got a cross.

The girl has:
Collapsed trachea (from the pug)
Syringomyelia (from the cavalier)
A heart murmur (from the cavalier)

Its also slipped a disk and had just come back from a stay at the vets

Owner said he didn't realise the parents should have been health tested as he thought from watching various documentaries that the conditions were exclusive to each breed and wouldn't cross so if he put them together he would get a healthy dog.

We talked about health testing and he was very accepting of my advice - he now tells everyone not to get a cross as his has cost him thousands on top of the 2k he paid for her!!  Of course he wouldn't change her - just make her healthier

" the division should be between good and bad breeding practices, not purebred vs crosses"

Interesting point, bearing in mind some people on this forum consider you a puppy farmer/backyard breeder simply because you don't currently exhibit your dogs ...
even though you only breed with the intention of getting something worthy of keeping back, research pedigrees for months on end, seek advice from countless knowledgeable people within your breed, use only fully health tested dogs for breeding and seek out the best examples of the breed when looking for a suitable stud dog to compliment your bitch etc etc.
I can think of people who exhibit their dogs (very successfully) but whom operate in a way that makes them far more worthy of the puppy farmer/commercial breeder tag than someone like me...

Needless to say, regardless of how thorough someone might be with their breeding practices, if they are purposely crossbreeding, they can't exhibit their dogs anywhere other than at a fun dog show.  We are in an age whereby anything and everything is being crossed, generally with no aim of establishing a new breed - I was under the impression that to become a recognised breed there had to be more than two different breeds involved in their make up, perhaps I am wrong here ?

"Collapsed trachea (from the pug)
Syringomyelia (from the cavalier)
A heart murmur (from the cavalier)"

Was this a first cross ?

Never seen any crossbreed in this country advertised for as much as £2000  !

i agree 100% re show ppl and breeding ive seen it with my own eyes! good breeders are just that regaurdless of how much showing their dog has done, if the dogs are of good standed and ALL health tests are done and good results dogs are not agresive/shy ect.......im not against hobby breeding if everything is done right and a pup is being kept back for your self..there are ppl out there that know so much about their breed and want to breed to improve the breed and thats what it should be about.

cavlover - doodles started here for £2k but often sit around £800-900 now..  Various other cross breeds are £800-1k range.. Proof that money can't buy you sense!!

Astounding ! :-(

White lilly, thankfully you are not alone in your rational thinking :-)

The girl has:
Collapsed trachea (from the pug)
Syringomyelia (from the cavalier)
A heart murmur (from the cavalier)

Its also slipped a disk and had just come back from a stay at the vets

Owner said he didn't realise the parents should have been health tested as he thought from watching various documentaries that the conditions were exclusive to each breed and wouldn't cross so if he put them together he would get a healthy dog.

This post ought to be at the top of the breeding forum at all times! In fact it should be all over the internet -and the poor dog should be in a TV documentary about designer crossbreeds.

:O 2K WTF !!!! what can i say no wonder so many ppl are breeding cross breeds , i had an argument today with some numpty wanting to swap a computer for a pup and the breeder (if u can call them tht ) would of been willing 2 " if he was into that type of thing " i am disgusted at the attitudes of some ppl !

> Collapsed trachea (from the pug)
> Syringomyelia (from the cavalier)
> A heart murmur (from the cavalier)

I'm also surprised at this.
As you know I am genetically minded, but I haven't seen anything that suggests SM and the heart issues within Cavs would carry over in a first-cross. Doesn't mean it can't, though :

A few people around here have "Pugaliers" and "Cavapoos" which I have met out and about... I am wondering if I should take more interest in them (if the owners allow) for recording purposes. And then I think - why bother, it's not going to change anything is it? and the owners will deal with what they have. The only person who gets the full picture is their vet.

Would accept that you would know about this and I had thought that the chance of passing on something that needed both parents to be carriers would not be passed to first crosses. Have seen some F1s with very poor conformation leading to the dog being unsound, have poor mouths and messy eyes but had always assumed this was because in breeding the F1s the breeder had not crossed the best to the best as most would aim to do but had mated those easily available.

However it does seem in the designer breeds that have been developed using more than one breed like the NI and the off shoots then the incidence of problems does seem higher than in any of the pure breeds being used in the development. The number effected with epilepsy and behavioural related problems seems very high so it would seem you have one at your peril. Again I would think that is because the stock being used for breeding is not the best but the available.

I've not managed to read all the posts but i can assure you there is no bearing to to breed a JRT with a Shiddie.  They are nowhere in there background.  I've seen these cross breeds and people have terrible trouble with coats and temperment, definitely not improving the breed.

English Shih Tzu's are on the whole sturdy trouble free dogs.  There are some issue of course taht stupid breeding brings in, even from show breeders who should know better but 'they do have to support their show career'.

Like someone else said its a mongral so even if that breed did need help it wouldn't happen.  If they tried they would ruin the breed.

God help anyone who buys that dog x

Ms Temeraire, you are in the same mode of thinking as I. In all honesty, I do not see how this would be possible in a first cross - unless SM and MVD are known health problems in pugs. Blimey, my vet has yet to come across a cavalier with SM yet, let alone a "pugalier". But thanks to PDE, joe public now believes this to be the major health problem in the breed, when it has always been (and imo always will be) MVD.
I would be very interested to know (for a fact) that SM and MVD has been seen in first cross "pugaliers".

Interesting sister thread running at the moment here http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/136014.html

It's quite amazing how little research even 'sensible' people will do when buying a puppy. I suspect this mantra of 'crossbred healthy, pedigree unhealthy' has caused a great deal of heartache for a lot of people.
Even if the dog is basically healthy, many of these low moulting crosses require a daily commitment to grooming, owners simply don't seem to realise that if hair isn't falling out then it needs clipping and maintainance and the breeders aren't telling them.

There was a cross advertised on our work internet today, people didn'thave enough time for it. Poor little thing was only six months old. The current owners were at least honest enough to say that the dog needed regular coat care and grooming:-(

No known incidence of SM or MVD in Pugs, so this post surprised me too.  I wonder if it could be a litlle over exageration, or is it a case that the pup is not  a first cross at all but the result of cross bred parents?

Responsible rather than random breeding will give the best chance of good health

That is covered in the mission statement of the Canine Alliance however it will take time patience and support.

Excellent!! :-)

"No known incidence of SM or MVD in Pugs, so this post surprised me too.  I wonder if it could be a litlle over exageration, or is it a case that the pup is not  a first cross at all but the result of cross bred parents?"

I thought not. I think someone is either being alarmist in an attempt to discredit crossbreeding or as you say, the dog in question was the progeny of two pugXcavaliers.

"Responsible rather than random breeding will give the best chance of good health".

Indeed. There is no real purpose to the current trend in crossbreeding. I should think the vast majority of those who buy them end up feeling very disappointed when they turn out to shed their coats profusely (when they were led to believe they would be non shedding) and look nothing like how they imagine they would as adults. Since you cannot guarantee anything so specific when their sire and dam are two totally different breeds !
In some of the more common crosses, they are bred beyond the first generation and ultimately (many generations down the line) you have the potential to produce puppies with a more definitive coat type/temperarement/conformation etc... but sadly, at this stage, the potential for hereditary health issues will be doubled up and so such puppies are more at risk of twice as many health problems than if they had opted for a pure breed !

Thanks for your replies,

I have no idea if it was an F1 cross or not he said the people had bred them for a while so I don't know if its F1 or F2 and to be honest I didn't even think to ask. 
He wasn't too knowledgeable about health testing or genetic dieseases but was reeling off all the problems she'd had and how much she'd cost him whilst watching the football.

I would assume murmours can appear regardless of the breed like in people but I could be wrong?  SM I know nothing about so don't have a clue how it is carried and he didn't refer to it as this he called it - "that brain that cavaliers have".

I'd be interested to know if anyone else has heard of such things.  I wasn't suprised with what he was telling me so didn't ask anymore questions but if I knew more about genetics like many of you do it would no doubt have thrown up a lot more questions