Ok, so, I have a 'friend' who has a large guarding working breed male just over a year old.  This is his first dog as they have always been cat people.  This dog is well loved but is running rings round them.  They told me they were having problems with aggression with small dogs about 2 months ago and I almost went to help but decided to give them the number for a behaviourist first.  Guy came and lightened them of £140 and gave them instructions on how to 'fix' the problem.  Basically, socialise and training.  The couple, however, are a bit 'nice' for this dog who is in desparate need of rules.  Anyhow, this weekend the dog had a 'scuffle' with a smaller dog.  He is trying to dominate and gets a bit rough(typical for the age).  He has also been neutered on the advice of the vet about a month ago.  but after that weekend, they are now wanting to re-home the dog.  I know they love him to bits and could help without even thinking about it but should I?  They live a bit far away to travel everyday so I would need to bring the dog here to work with him but I don't really think this is all his problem.  I think it's the wife I need to bring here and train (hehe)!!  I just would hate for him to be re-homed but maybe this is best for him?  But I know the waiting times are long for the breed as they have a few in rescue so he will advertise in silly places.  I'm worrying because I know the dog and know I can help but would he be better off elsewhere?
Ps Dog was bought at 6 weeks with no sign of mum or other pups from a junkie hell-hole.  Typical, couldn't leave the pup in the squallor.  Just needs manners and socialisation to be a fabulous dog.
Help!! Any advice?

It has got to be worth a go. But will depend on how commited the owners are, any work you do will make the dog responsive to YOU but maybe not them. Still I would think it must be worth trying.
Aileen

worth trying with them i think, sounds like they need a better behaviourist, or even some basic training classes to get used to handling him.

That being said, having had large working breeds 'nice' is really what you are looking for in training as well as a firm hand. big burly big dogs are often very sensitive.

they are not selling or breeding so you can mention breed i think?

The behaviourist was all about the clicker and when the owners can barely time a treat or distraction, adding the clicker was just a nightmare!  And the nearest training classes won't let them attend as their dog acts aggressively towards smaller dogs!!Duh, I thought that's the point of classes?  I suppose my main worry would be either me takin him at training him and then either the owners can't get to grips with him at all and it's all been a waste of time or that I take him and they realise how good life is without him and don't want him back!!lol.  Don't think I need another dog right now (but we can always squeeze one in :P)

"A large guarding, working breed" dog that is a result of poor breeding, is dog aggressive and has inexperienced (tho well meaning) handlers ......................  I think the training classes are being responsible in not allowing this dog to attend a multi-dog class.  Did these trainers offer the option of one-to-one sessions?  If not perhaps the trainers in question recognised that this dog had bigger issues than they were safely able to deal with.

Firstly I think that you need to take into consideration your own feelings. Seen this so many times where people help, even know of a dog trainer too who took in a dog to help the owner and in all cases they have ended up keeping the dog. :-D

If you know you are strong enough to let go of the dog back to people who will not be as good at training and commanding him as you then by all means do it, I've done it for family members all my life and have no problems in handing the dog back but I know they will continue what I have started. If I trained a dog and it went to people who would not, I would find it very hard as you feel as though you are letting the dog down.

If the dog is not yet mature then he needs to go through adolescence which is not going to just be fixed by you starting him off, it will be an on-going process, you know that the owners need more training than the dog, don't you? :-D

If you can train both and people are much harder than dogs :-D then go ahead nothing to lose, if not perhaps you could help to socialise him for re-homing purposes and then vet new owners yourself, but if this is the case you need to take some kind of finances from them for his upkeep it should not be your burden to bare.

But, most of all, if you think you are not strong enough to let a dog go once you have spent time training and socialising it, as obviously there will be a bond in doing so and you don't really have time and room for another dog, stay away as you'll only cause problems for yourself. :-)

And the nearest training classes won't let them attend as their dog acts aggressively towards smaller dogs!!Duh, I thought that's the point of classes?

Not at all. Your average pet training classes are for dogs and owners to learn the basics. Imagine how you would feel if you took a toy dog or a puppy to such a class and there was a large aggressive dog there that scared your dog for life? Not very happy I'd imagine. Dogs with problems other than simple ones like pulling on the lead or similar should NOT be in general classes as it simply is not fair on the other dogs in the class. Such dogs need to attend specialist classes or one to one training before they are ready to attend mainstream classes.

Yes, I suppose you are right.  I wouldn't be happy with a big, noisy dog terrifying my little 'uns but I don't think that way as my little 'uns would give as good back and more!!lol.  The trainer doesn't do 1-2-1 classes and when I said about getting a trainer that does, I think they are worried about throwing good money after bad after the behaviourist.  I would think he's worth the money but I think they have had about enough.  My thoughts are that if they are allready thinking about re-homing, then it'll always be the elephant in the room, do you know what I mean? Any time the dog does wrong, it'll be going to another home?
Also, I know I will get attached.  My head is telling me to stay back but my heart just wants to help this boy.  And it doesn't help that I adore the breed!

My thoughts are that if they are allready thinking about re-homing, then it'll always be the elephant in the room, do you know what I mean? Any time the dog does wrong, it'll be going to another home?

Yes it's a very difficult scenario because it seems like their heart isn't truly in it.

I don't think taking him in to train him will help - dogs behave differently with different people, in different situations.  Tia, when I last worked with her, behaved beautifully around other dogs within a few weeks - but was still a completely aggressive nightmare with my brother.  The work HAS to be done by the owner, albeit with guidance.

If as Goldmali says, it sounds like their heart isn't in it, then rehoming would be the best option IMO - if he's already started one scuffle with his behaviour then more will follow (Tia did this also and the more it happens, the more it will happen because he'll start to stress about encounters, which will make him more 'dominant' and lead to more scuffles).

I think this was why I wanted to 'get my hands on him' at his young impressionable age rather than a hulking 3 yr old with the same issues.  I know deep down he just needs boundarys and leadership.  And he's daft for a ball so is easy to 're-direct'.  I suppose I keep thinking 'if he were mine' how easy he would be to be great.  I think I need to take a step back.  We can't save the world and I really do think it would be pointless as I'm pretty sure that whatever I did, they wouldn't keep it up.

> If as Goldmali says, it sounds like their heart isn't in it, then rehoming would be the best option IMO - if he's already started one scuffle with his behaviour then more will follow

a fair point. the dog might have a much better chance with another more experienced family.

if they are looking at this route i think breed specific rescue needs to be emphasised to the current owners

I think you are right to stay away. It sounds to me as though you're pretty attached to the idea of taking him in and if you really can't afford the time/space for another dog then I suppose it's best for yourself not to take him in.

I can't help but think it seems a shame that some well-meaning owners who just haven't got a clue will end up re-homing a dog that they love and that *could* be good if only they could train him! What breed is he?

Why don't you take him, put some work in on him and then rehome him yourself, to the right kind of person who will keep up the good work??? Much better than his present owner putting him on Gumtree.

Cracar, am I right in thinking that you currently have a bitch that you hope is in whelp?  I refer to your post on raw feeding in pregnancy.  If this is the case ........ surely you will be extremely busy in the coming weeks and really not in an ideal situation to be introducing a youngster into your family who will need a lot of your time and effort.  You say you love this particular breed - do yourself a favour and wait until you are able to enjoy the research and planning involved in that breed you hanker after. 

Zan, that was kind of my thinking.  At least if he got socialised and trained, he might find some decent owners!

Alysce, yes, I do have a bitch that was mated a ouple of weeks ago.  I had no intentions of letting this dog mix with my (hopefully) pregnant bitch either in my home or outside.  Also, it is 7 weeks before she is due so I had plenty of time to work with him as all my girlie wants to do now is sleep and eat!  All my dogs are taken care of and my kids are all at school during the day so I have lots of time I could dedicate to him, should he need it.

Anyhow, turns out we struck a nerve.  The owners are going to work with him and keep him.  They are going to bring him to me a few times a week(long round trip so must want it to work!) and we will work together.  Much better than me training him as I think it's the owners that need it!lol.  Fingers crossed for a good ending.

Good on you to take all the trouble to make this work.  :-)

Goods news!  Hope it all goes well :-)

I assume the behaviourist would still be willing to help too, i usually ask for an undate in 2 weeks time and if they need help before them i will go round and help them train. It sounds like the behaviourist was on the right track and i don't think you can blame the behaviourist if the owners were not following his advice, they should have gone back and asked for more help.

Yes, of course the behaviourist will go back.  For a price!  He charges for each visit. 

Hi cracar
I do think helping his owners to train him (or should I say training the owners) is  the best way to go and you really are a star to offer such help.

I have a cairn who is 10 months old, not my first cairn I might add but for shall we say "reasons" I have allowed him to run rings around me (I wasn't so soft with my last cairn). Recently we went back to his breeder for grooming and we had a chat. She addressed some issues and was able to demonstrate some ways to deal with them. I think I knew deep down what I needed to do but I let emotions get in the way. I now realise that actually I was failing him not helping him and my breeder has given me the confidence to give him boundaries etc. Lots of people had been telling me I was too soft on him, my training club, my daughter to name a few but I just kept making excuses for him. After talking to my breeder who I have so much respect and trust for has put me back on the right track and hopefully my little man will now grow into a well behaved and happy dog.

I really hope it all works out. Good luck
jane