This is following on from a post I made on another thread here - the short of it is Buster still pees his bed at night!

freelancer said: But more than that what makes him empty all over his bed, when marking would be more effective- as an anti anxiety thing?

He doesn't cock his leg to wee. Even when marking on a walk he'll stand and just tilt his pelvis to direct the flow. He has only cocked his leg twice, once to mark on top of a male pups wee in our garden (he saw the pup wee there), he made a big show of the fact he was marking and the very first time was when he was about a year or so old, it must have been his first urge to lift his leg (again, in our garden).
Other than that, the only time he'll cock a leg is to get his foot out of the resulting puddle he creates, which looks rather odd when he lifts a front leg up to keep a paw dry!!
maybe this has something to do with not doing the usual marking??

freelancer said:  It sounds more like a protest, and does he watch you clean the pee up?
I'm not honestly sure if he pays me any attention when I clean it up or not. He'd usually be in the kitchen (his bed is in the livingroom) or asleep on the sofa. I've never been in a bad/irritated mood when cleaning up, and I ignore him, so he gets no attention from me (good or bad) when I'm cleaning it.

The 'protest' comment got me thinking. It seems like a protest (hubby always said thats what it is), but I didn't realise dogs thought like that? However - I know Buster thinks about how he can manipulate us for a treat, it's what he lives for! As he's always peed in the house, I've made increased efforts to praise & reward pees done outside (even while out on a walk), my thinking being that it will give a clearer distinction,, ie. wee in the house = nothing, wee outside = GREAT.
Is it possible that this is an attempt to get a treat? - he also will realise that a treat needs to be given to him so could it be possible that he actully thinks "wee in house = she'll have to come down to give me a biccy"???

It seems silly typing that but he did go through a stage of pooping in the house and he would even BARK (he's not normally vocal) during the night for a 'poop biscuit' (wees & poops in the garden have been rewarded by a biscuit.) - it was obvious he wanted the reward as the moment I came downstairs he'd run to his biscuit tub in the kitchen. I never rewarded him for this, simply cleaned up the poop and went back to bed, but that went on for about a week before he gave in (being woken at 4am becasue the dogs done a steamer in the livingroom and expects to be 'paid' for it was wearing thin!!!)
I never thought of it at the time, but I actually stopped rewarding outside poops then. I wonder if I STOP rewarding outside pees it will have any effect????

It's worth a try :) Lol, that looks like such a feeble response after your long post Mastifflover

Do you have a word you use to get him to pee when you ask or do you just treat for peeing?
If the problem really is that he is trying to get a treat by weeing you could try teaching him to urinate on command (my lurcher empty himself if we say 'do your business') so he knows then that he'll get a reward for when you ask him to wee but unasked for wees just get ignored. Kind of similar to teaching speak in a way?
Sorry its rambly its hard explaining your thoughts on the internet sometimes :s
Obviously if he does eliminate on command that whole ramble is pointless anyway, lol!

I forgot to answer some more points from freelancer!

freelancer said: if you got a blow up bed to sleep on and slowly moved it further and further away from the sofa over successive nights until you are out of the room but on same level and see what happens?
I've thought about this before, but never got further than puzzling over it.
I thought of sleeping on a camp bed in the middle of the living room (as a starting point that is different than the sofa), moving the bed closer to the door, but them I'm stuck as the hallway is too narrow so it would mean a jump to the kitchen. Then I worried that the only next step is the big jump of being downstairs to being upstairs.

freelancer said; I'm thinking perhaps one of those baby monitors, so he can hear you breathing etc
I've never thought of that! Got to be worth a try :)

I have had many discussions with hubby over if it's worth me sleeping on the sofa for 4 weeks solid (for example), in an attempt to get Busters bladder in a habbit. I wonder if his bladder gets used to not being emptied at night (which he wont do if somebody is with him), if that will help at all? It may get his 'body-clock' used to not weeing at night???

Previously we've come to the joint conclusion that it will have no long-term effect, but recently, after hubby spent nearly 2 weeks on the sofa, it was about 5 days before Buster started weeing his bed again.

It's looking more like a long stint on the sofa is in order!!

I am lucky, hubby obviously doesn't enjoy having a huge dog weeing gallons in the hosue, but he's as chilled out about it as I am, it's not something we want but if we can not change it then so be it, no point getting upset about it :)

> Do you have a word you use to get him to pee when you ask or do you just treat for peeing?

Both really. It's taken me ages to get him to go out at night for a final wee (he's soooooo lazy), so I tend to have to tell him to go at night, then he gets a biccy.
It usually goes like this:
me - "wee wee"
Buster - stands on the patio looking at me as if to say - "no, you go wee wee on the grass"
me - point to grass, repeats "go wee wee" in a serious voice now
Buster - trots off and stands behind pond 'pretending' to have a wee, runs back to me for a biccy
me " wee wee"
Buster - trots of behind pond, keeps an eye on me to see if I'm watching - if he spots me watching he'll do his wee, if he thinks I haven't seen him he wont bother having a wee, so I have to tell him again!

He's good at pretending to wee to get a biccy, but he doesn't realise the tell-tale sign- his tail goes up in the air, level with his back, when he's weeing, it stays hanging down when he's faking, LOL

The day-time routine is different, he'll go out for a wee with no commands, do a wee (if I'm out with him, I'll say "wee wee, good boy"), then he runs back in for a biccy.

> Sorry its rambly its hard explaining your thoughts on the internet sometimes

I don't think anyone rambles on as much as me! :) I know exactly what you are getting at - thanks, I hadn't thought about that.

After my earlier thought of not rewarding wees at all, I then started to worry how that could aversly effect the situaiton, but brill - rewards only for weeing on command. YAY!! Thanks Pookin :)

what are you washing the bedding with? he might still be picking up the scent and thinking this is an appropriate place to pee.

or he might have got into the habit, can you re-arrange the room and his bedding? has be a different bed you can use that he doesn't pee in?

Buster what are you doing to your poor mum? Tell him from me he is too old for this nonsense. :-D

I agree in stopping the treats, he may well have got mixed up with what a treat is for and what one isn't for.

I only ever use treats during the very early stages of training until a dog understands the meaning of a command he knows what wee wee means so IMO the treats need to stop altogether anyway; after a dog understands a command all they get from me afterwards is the reward of good boy/girl never anymore food treats they really are not needed.

I've never known a dog pretend to pee for it's treat, crafty monkey. :-D

Sounds like he does not always empty his bladder properly before bed, he may well keep a lot back and only pee some, we all know that dogs will continually go to the toilet on walks for marking, even the bitches do this so just because he goes for a pee before bed does not mean he is emptying.

Peeing on his bed may well have become a habit and as already said one of his places for marking, just like our dogs have spots in the garden they always frequent.

If this were my dog I know what I would do to get him out of the habit, I would go back to basics and get up at 3-4 O'clock in the morning to let him out in the garden and command a wee with a good boy this serves to firstly catch him prior to emptying in the house and also reinstates the praise for going outside and that this is the place to go.

I know that work and lifestyles can prevent people from being able to do this but IMO it is worth the broken sleep to get a dog properly understanding and being house training.

Whether it is habit, marking or thinking he will get a treat it will break the circle of his thought process if he is to go outside at 3-4am. :-)

ML,

You are right, dogs don't protest as in being vindictive- it could be that he associates weeing with you plus treat, so weeing is one route to making himself feel better when he wakes up and you are not there. Plus it is a habit, plus emptying a full bladder feels good anyway.

Carrington beat me to it- having looked at the shenanigans outside before bedtime I don't think he knows exactly what is required or what wee wee means, but he does know that he can get involved in some drawn out process that involves treats and you doing lots of talking to him. I don't think he's pretending to wee for a treat, he doesn't know precisely what the command means and is possibly so focussed on acquiring the treat by offering you various behaviours, that actually weeing is low down the list.

I too think it is right back to basics and you may have to sit outside and ignore him for hours until he goes and then praise and inside, ditto in the night. It might be really, really hard to start with but now is the time to do it as the weather is getting warmer.

> what are you washing the bedding with?

I just use my normal, non-boi washing liquid, I've tried bio too but that makes no difference.
I've even tried buying a new bed (tried that about 3 times), putting it in a place he's never weed before (middle of the livingroom) and he's still peed on it.
I've tried old using my old quilt as his bedding (thinking it may give some  sort of comfort to be able to smell me) - he peed on it LOL

> Whether it is habit, marking or thinking he will get a treat it will break the circle of his thought process if he is to go outside at 3-4am.

With us working very odd hours sometimes (self employed - if we have to stay up half the night to meet deadline then we must), he has had an extra wee at different times, the 'latest' being 5 am. Got back up at 7:30 and he'd peed his bed.

Do you think getting up through the night would work, even though he can hold his bladder easily for 12 hours?
I would be willing to do it, if I thought it would make any difference but I've always thought as he's capable of holding his bladder, it wont help stop him wee in the hosue, as eh can't be weeing because he needs to go??

> I only ever use treats during the very early stages of training until a dog understands the meaning of a command he knows what wee wee means so IMO the treats need to stop altogether anyway

No treats, not even for a wee on command?

ML,

What would happen if you put one of those puppy pads outside? I think it is important to be clear if the substrate is the problem or that it is your presence, in other words does he have a degree of separation anxiety meaning that when you go away upstairs for the night he just goes because the relief feels good and he is in the habit now of doing it indoors on soft things, when you are not there.

The one constant is that when you are there he controls his bladder, when you are not he does not bother- therein must lie the clue. It seems that the 'problems' start at bedtime when he is suddenly reluctant to go out, he needs treats, he doesn't quite seem to understand what you want him to do....having managed it all during the day. Of course, this whole bedtime ritual precedes you going away upstairs for the night.

For the period you slept downstairs with him- after a few days was he going outside more readily at night?

Have you kept a really detailed daily diary of exactly what happens when he wees outside. This may be useful in shedding a bit more light.

No treats, not even for a wee on command?

Nope! :-)

When it comes to toilet training I can honestly say I have never needed to use a food treat, a high pitched happy voice with a lot of praise (good boy/girl) and pats and strokes does the job fabulously and I have trained a lot of pups, never, ever needed food treats.

I only ever use food treats for teaching new commands just as a back up that they are doing things correctly, but once vocal, clicker or whistle commands are understood I never give food treats a good boy or girl in a higher pitched voice with strokes and pats does the job fabulously and has a tail wagging with delight knowing they have done the right thing.

A dog should know by it's owners voice and demeanor whether it is doing the correct thing.  We will all train slightly differently there is nothing wrong if people wish to always use a food treat stimuli but for me it is redundant after a command is understood, I much prefer a dog to read me, rather than look in my hand or pocket for a treat.

Obviously there are some training sessions which do need continual treats as you can not stop every few seconds to give praise and a food treat is much more suitable.

But for toilet training, nope, no food in sight, it really is not needed. :-)

> What would happen if you put one of those puppy pads outside?

I've not used puppy pads for ages as they just don't hold enough liquid!! But I have chucked his peed-on beeding outside (washing allready in the machine, left the peed bedding outside untill I could put it in the machine), he's walked past the bedding to wee on the grass.

There has also been clean bedding of his, airing in the garden, got blown onto the patio and again, he's walked past it to pee on the grass.

>The one constant is that when you are there he controls his bladder, when you are not he does not bother- therein must lie the clue. It seems that the 'problems' start at bedtime when he is suddenly reluctant to go out, he needs treats, he doesn't quite seem to understand what you want him to do....having managed it all during the day. Of course, this whole bedtime ritual precedes you going away upstairs for the night

At one point, it was nearly impossible to get him off the sofa at night, in order to get him to go into the garden I actually posted about it on here and with the helpfull advice , a LOT of traning & effort we got to the point where IF he gets on the sofa before bedtime he can easily be got off (I was having to lay nearly on top of him and force him off the sofa with my body - tried tipping him off, but he's too heavy for that).
I had to break down the whole thing into stages in order to get him out for a wee.
First step - get him off the sofa (he'd then lay on the floor and refuse to move),
next step get him out the door (he'd then sit on the patio and refuse to move - even if I came back inside and shut him out for an hour!!)
next step get him over the patio onto the grass
next step get him to actually have a wee (I spent up to an hour some nights at 2am trying all different way to coax him onto the grass, I could even be seen coupied at the bottom of the garden, stroking & talking too tufts of grass in an attempt to get him interested).

He does know what 'wee-wee' means, I am sure of that, but there really is a battle of wills at night over it. He is very 'stubborn' in so much as he will not do something he does not want to do if he sees no reason for it (hence the use of lots of treats - to try to make it a rewarding thing to wee), on top of this he is very, very lazy.

I had put in a big paragraph to try to explain how lazy he is, but I've taken that out as reading this back it looks like a attention seeking behaivour - refusal to do what I want is resulting in increased efforts from me - wow, he's trained me very well!!!!!!!

>For the period you slept downstairs with him- after a few days was he going outside more readily at night?

I'm not sure in all honesty.

The diary is a great idea, one I'd not thought of. It's all too easy to think things have happened this way or that and then miss potential vital clues. I'll start keeping a diary today.

It would be great to finally resolve this issue, I had given up on it, I expect my attitude is not helping (thinking  he'll always wee in the house whatever I do, so not putting in much effort to stop it).

> No treats, not even for a wee on command?
>
> Nope!

I'll give it a whirl then :)

Ml,

Do keep a very detailed, blow by blow diary, what's going on before, during and after each event, during day and bedtime/morning first thing.

The more I look at what you've put the more inclined I am to think it is about him not wanting to be parted from you at night and then having got into the habit of going at night when you are not there- plus it probably feels good. We forget that going to the loo is a classic case of negative reinforcement and so rewarding in itself. The problem here is that there is no consequence to him going indoors at night, other than the reward of an empty bladder. He clearly is not bothered about lying in his own widdle. You wonder what he would do if the widdle was not absorbed into the padding but stayed on top, would he still lie in it?

Have you ever caught him midstream indoors and given him a loud 'no'? One method to tackle urination when owner is not there is a moisture sensor that emits an alarm. The dog stops midstream (hopefully), it wakes you up (hopefully) and you take him out to finish and praise/reward.

Anyway, see if the diary sheds any light.

In the meantime, still good to take him back to puppy basics. 

> No treats, not even for a wee on command?
>
> Nope! :-)
>
>

Thats given me a light bulb moment, the one dog i didnt use treats for was 99% clean at 8 1/2 weeks, the others however.........

ML i feel your pain, my 4 year old lab is crated at night because she simply isnt reliable enough (dont worry everyone i can hear her if she needs to "go")  And my young male BT is scent marking everywhere and will pee on beds too and cocks his leg up kitchen cupboards/ dining table legs, this thread has got me thinking he may have SA. On a side note, over the last couple of months he's become very fond of barking at approaching dogs on walks :-( no apparent trigger /cause that i can think of.

I've nothing constructive to add...but I LOVE Buster!! He should have a fan club!! I would sign up right now  :0)  Pretending to pee?? Excellent!!  Getting you up to give him a biccy AFTER he has peed? Priceless!!lol.

(Told ya it would be constructive!!)

> I just use my normal, non-boi washing liquid, I've tried bio too but that makes no difference.
>

vinegar maybe?

As he is obviously so lazy about going out at bedtime and peeing would it help to pop him on a lead and take him for a short walk ? Do you think he may pee a little more that way? No idea about your area but will he pee up a lampost or on grass if you pop him out the door for 10 mins before bed?
Failing that I do wonder if it maybe necessary to contain him in a smaller space at night with pannels (Doubt you can find a big enough cage LOL) He is not very energetic so just enough for his bed would do and monitor him maybe he will learn to ask.
Never seen them or had anything to do with them but would a Belly band help do you think ?
Aileen

> He does know what 'wee-wee' means, I am sure of that, but there really is a battle of wills at night over it. He is very 'stubborn' in so much as he will not do something he does not want to do if he sees no reason for it (hence the use of lots of treats - to try to make it a rewarding thing to wee), on top of this he is very, very lazy.

mastiff i'm afraid! at the end of the day all mastiff types need a reason to do something :)

I have to say we've never used treats for toilet training either, it's always about the positive actions. At the end of the day one of the defining characteristics of mastiff types is that they are people focused, but are also lazy. I know in Tio's case if he gets into his bed before OH is ready to take him out for last toilet he is difficult to persuade out. That being said, he will get up if we head towards him, just likes to push his limits :) You shouldn't be needing to wrestle with him to get him out. How about putting a collar and lead on him and escorting him out if he will not come?

He's happy to perform as you like during the day, so what is different at night? I'd probably ignore him outside until he does it right then go happy mental (WEE WEE! YAY! what a good boy Buster!)

I wonder if it is habit, seperation anxiety or a blend of them. do you have a videocamera you can set up sneakily to see what he does before hand? of example is he shows other anxious behaviours maybe?

Don't think vinegar or just washing powder will remove smell completely- and for any training to work all smells must be gone or there is no hope.

Washing powder first, followed by wipe over with surgical spirit- it has got a very strong smell, so don't do it while dog is around and let it evaporate and smell diminish before letting dog back in. Or a proper enzyme based product, that actively breaks down the protein in the dog's widdle.

If the wee has sunk into an absorbent material there is still a chance that the smell remains after washing unless properly treated. Additionally there can be tiny splashes near the central area. Again these must be cleaned and removed.

> I wonder if it is habit, seperation anxiety or a blend of them. do you have a videocamera you can set up sneakily to see what he does before hand? of example is he shows other anxious behaviours maybe?

There is a link between our absence and him weeing. We have heard him pacing around at night when we are in bed - something he doesn't do if we are sleeping downstairs.

Hubby & I both fell asleep on the sofa last night, Buster spent the night in his bed (next to the sofa) as I had allready sprawled out, leaving no room for him to get up with us, it was no surprise to find he did not wee during the night.

We have now decided to sleep downstairs permanently! Not just for the dogs sake, although that is a factor. We work from home and all the bits & pieces that go with the business are gradually taking over the house (that is not very big anyway).
We are now starting the huge task of re-aranging the house in order for our bedroom to be the office/factory which leaves us sleeping in the livingroom = one happy Buster that will not wee at night and we get the rest of the house back as just a living area :) (will make the house work much easier and keep the place looking tidier too, so plus points all around:) )

Thank you soooo much to everyone for all of your suggestions and thoughts. It's great to know there are so many helpfull people here to give advice and it's eye-opening to see a problem through other peoples eyes :) I love champdogs - no wonder it's so adictive :-D

We went out yesterday evening, returning at 10:30pm. Buster wouldn't go out for a wee before we left, we forgot to put chairs on the sofa, but when we returned there was no wee in the house.

As soon as I got home I let him out for a wee, he went out and did a big wee imediately - he must have been holding it.

Allthough we no longer have the problem of him weeing at night (as we're sleeping downstairs), it is still a puzzle that is playing on my mind.

He obviously can hold his wee in our complete absence so can not have learnt to wee in the house, during the night/eveing when we are not here. I am starting to think it's a case of him not liking being shut away from us when we ARE in the house. When I woke up this morning (hubby had got up early & gone out), Buster had got on the sofa, despite having a long length of sofa to sleep on, he squashed himself up at the end my head was and shared my pillow with me.

I'm not liking hving no bedroom - that is going to take some getting used to and the house has been turned upside down (will take another day or 2 to get sorted as we decided to do some re-decorating at the same time), but a major plus point is seeing how contented Buster looks when he's snuggled up to me on the sofa and not waking up to wee :)