we will definately be having him trimmed regularly,thats for sure but not the traditional clip.Its not just because he has the full coat,if you saw him in the flesh you would probably see that there are far more features that just dont add up,not just the full coat.i know poodles have long noses but he just does not have a poodle nose.Friends who have owned poodles have all said he isnt full poodle,perhaps half or even three quarters but there is definately something else in there.the poodles i have seen that have unclipped faces look totally different,although it doesnt show in the pic his nose is extremely long and pointed even with a fluffy face.anyway i still have the problem of trying to get the papers that they promised me and are now saying i cant have them so i have quite a lot to deal with.

I honestly think that you should stop worrying about what he is or isn't and start using the time and energy to make him into the best pet that he can be. :)

If you bought a puppy then didnt get his papers or his parents eye test results,then got a whole load of abusive emails from the breeder would you let it drop? as ive said previously even if he is not a full poodle he is my daughters pet and will continue to get the love and care he has always had from us however these breeders need to be stopped so someone else as silly as me doesnt get ripped off.im going to get legal advice tommorrow because it seems that apart from the odd few who have been lovely and helpful some people here just seem to like an argument,i did not come on here to get abuse,get told how to clip our pup or be told to just accept ive been ripped off,i dont find these comments helpful or in anyway connected to what i originally asked about so if its not in connection with what i need to know please dont  post at all,thanks for all the helpful and kind post though.

Kenzi,

No-one is trying to insult you or suggest your pup is neglected, but if you had seen the dogs we see as groomers you might understand why we mentioned clipping :(

Example.
I have spent the last year trying to get a Bedlington owner to groom her dog properly.  She bathes him weekly and brushes him regularly, yet when I get him - after 4 months instead of 6 weeks - he is FELTED to the skin.  No knots or tangles in his coat, but one big felted mass at skin level :(   It took me 4 hours to remove it the first time, it was so bad.    I have given her free lessons in combing and brushing etc.  I have now given up, next time she will take him to the vet to be sedated and clipped because it is so unfair to put him through it.  Yet to look at him you'd think he was overgrown but well groomed!

The Poodle and Bedlington trims aren't all for fashion, they evolved for practical reasons ;)

Regarding whether he is full poodle, he is just at the age when a pup starts to go all out of shape.  The time when that promising show pup suddenly starts looking like some gangly crossbreed and you begin to doubt your own experience, then in a few months time, if you haven't lost your nerve and sold the pup on, your ugly duckling starts looking like it might just be a cygnet, but there's still a long way to go.

Don't forget as well, that there is always some variation in the breed, even in top show lines you can have dogs with longer or shorter noses/ears/backs/legs/tails etc.  Sometimes it's just an illusion, I can make a dog's nose look longer or shorter just by trimming differently ;)

Regarding the papers, have they told you why you can't have them?

kenzi
Speaking as a sort of outsider here just reading the thread please don't be offended by any comments that have been written.
There is one thing you can be guaranteed on this forum and that is honest, impartial advice for the benefit to you and that of your dog. :-)
For help & advice about your dog I think you will be hard pushed to find a more truthful & sound forum than this one.
I personally don't always like or agree with what has been written but it won't put me off coming back.

You have had great advice all the way through this  - the things to focus on are the things you can prove  - the pup was advertised as KC reg, he isnt. Take that to trading standards.

If you can find evidence that proves he cannot be the offspring of the parents the breeders say are his, use that too.

You will not unfortunately be able to prove without doubt that he is or isnt the offspring of the parents they say he is, without DNA testing, and thats not going to happen (because theres no way on earth the breeders will allow the parents to be dna sampled).

You have to work with what you have got, and learn from the experience - you can do no more than that.

Hopefully in time, other people will read this thread and learn from  your mistake as well and THAT will be good. Even more hopefully, these breeders will suffer the consequences of their actions, and I do hope you keep us updated on that front.

Kenzi he is gorgeous, don't take offence at neglected, it's a term used by a groomer meaning the coat has grown out too far between grooms, losing the trim lines etc NOT in anyway associated with neglect in the cruelty sense, this guy is far from neglected.

If there is one other breed I can vaguely see in him at a push is miniature schnauzer, can you google the breeders number but put schnoodle in as well?  I say this as it's a cross I've seen as puppies and coming into be groomed, the facial colouring is very similar.

In a years time he will have matured into his adult colour and looking at him now my guess will be that he is going to a heck of a lot lighter than he is now, possible ending up nearly cream with darker points.

I had a quick google

Look at 2nd picture down on this site [url=]http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/schnoodlephotos3.htm [/url] for similar colouring.

Kenzi,

I think it is worth baring in mind a very recent post from one of our breeders on here,

As you did not actually go to collect your pup from the said breeders house, it is possible that the breeder has had identity theft.

The photo's you received of the dam, sire and pups can easily be copied and pasted from any site on the internet.

A breeders address, details and pups pedigrees can be copied from their website.

An e-mail can be made of any person, name, company just through yahoo, hotmail etc, so easy to have a faulse e-mail.

A website can be put up for free saying anything at all.

A landline may not correspond with the address given.

And if contact is only via mobile phone again can be from anyone, anywhere.

Recently someone used a breeders identity and 'allegedly' the puppy owner on the way to the house was like you given the choice of having the pup elsewhere in this case on a roadway.

Due to the fact that the breeder has actually registered a litter, it may be completely innocent and this breeder may be nothing to do with the person you saw or the pup you were given. The only way these people are ever cottoned onto is when there is no official KC registration papers.

It may be worth you actually checking out that this person has not been involved in identity theft before you take things to trading standards as you did not actually ever go near the alleged address or breeder yourself.

Just looked at your pictures, and discounting his unusual colouring he looks very poodly to me. :-) I'm always surprised what long muzzles poodles have when you get down under the hair (or they're clipped).

Because the poodle coat doesn't moult, for health and practical hygiene reasons he is going to need regular clipping throughout his life - not necessarily a short or fancy clip; (something like this) looks very smart and would keep his skin and coat healthy.

Just to add, the pup looks like a poodle to me,  if only you would take Gwens advice you can have this cleared up very quickly with regards to breed if you are still not sure, but actually can't see why you are thinking he is not a poodle. Looks like an un-groomed poodle to me.

I agree with everyone else, just love him and let's hope the pup will be a healthy example of the breed and put the rest down to experience, as whatever the reasoning the KC papers if you ever do receive any are not going to correspond with this pup.

Multi task...thanks for your kind post,he does indeed look like that pup.I think this has all stemmed from the sheer dishonesty of the breeders and has taken the fun out of the first few weeks of owning a puppy.I think if the post where the word neglect was used was worded better then i would not have been so upset because apart from not having the traditional trim his coat is in immaculate condition and he had actually been trimmed round his eyes twice already by my daughter.

I tend to agree that this is not all poodle...maybe a bit of Mini Schnauzer, maybe even a full poodle MS cross.

I also agree that his face should be clipped for hygene reasons, his ears plucked, feet and under tail clipped for same reasons.

With respect a brush will be of little use on a poodle ( poodle cross) coat, you will just be touching the surface and its a comb which is needed to make sure this coat wont mat.
No matter your intentions not to take off the coat, i suspect you will have to as you do know .....a poodle coat just grows and grows.

As for any legal redress from this puppy farmer, I suspect he charges more for Schnoodles than he does for Poodles...they generally do.

I'm not a poodle expert, but he does look all or mostly poodle to me as a groomer. I have a brown poodle I clip in the lamb clip but after trying the clean face they are now going to grow the face out with a little round donut moustache. It's just starting to develop after 2 clips, next time I do him I'll try to remember to photograph the face as the moustache will be getting more obvious. So you'd still clip round the eyes and cheeks, but leave the mouth hair a bit longer. I think he'll look cute! I don't suppose you're in my area (Suffolk) as I'd be very happy to do a puppy trim on your puppy, I always hate groomers or vets who tell people not to get their puppies clipped until 6 months!

Marginally OT but just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the comments about timing of clips on puppies - the local sitter employs a groomer, and has been to assess a 5 month standard poodle pup for grooming this week.  Groomer has said not before 6 months, I said quite clearly it should have gone in for a full groom already to get it used to it (used to be a groomer myself), no change but I've just relayed what you've all said and she's going to talk to the groomer and owner.  Even more important in this case as I suspect the pup is not trained generally - he's actually likely to become a case for me as he's showing signs of fear aggression already :-(  So the sooner he can get used to grooming the better!

Ta!

I would have a poodle pup in the parlour as soon as it was covered by its vaccination - around 14 weeks - to clip face, feet and tail, to comb through and sort out any areas that the owner might have missed.  The breeder would have done this for a second time at 8 weeks before the pup went to its new home, so it's then every 6 weeks for life whatever style the owner chooses.

he is very very cute kenzi he looks like a teddy bear :) i have absolutly no experience with the breed but he looked like a poodle to me , in this case i agree dont waste ur money on a dna test , just get him trimmed round his face and he will look a million dollars x

There is the possibility that he is a Labradoodle. there are alot about right now with some looking moor poodle than lab. If I was you. I would be taking a trip to the breeder to see for myself what they had and what they are breeding It's not to late to pay them a visit. Tell them you want to meet the mum. I would also be reporting to the KC what you told us about the papers. But , and I am being honest. I think he may well have come from a puppy farmer. Its a shame you did not join the breed club as you would have found a very good caring breeder there. You can still join and get advice on Poodle coat care. as you say hes your first poodle so joining the club will be a great plae to get advice .

I wish i could take a trip to the breeders but the emails ive recieved have been very threatening and the call i recieved was just as bad,Ive had to actually block them from emailing me,it was that bad.This all started because after several weeks of not getting the papers i contacted the kc to tell them the breeder was still waiting for the papers and thats when i discovered there werent any,they then obviously went in to a panic and registered a litter that day but mum is the wrong colour.The parents are meant to be eye tested so if it goes to court and i get the papers( whether they are the right ones or not) i can then check to see if parents are eye tested and get the papers checked.Its just so fustrating because i know something isnt right.Guys thanks for your lovely comments,He is a sweet little guy and although i dont want the traditional clip ive booked him in for a trim on his face and tidy up.

At least hes in a loveing home now hun. It would be good to share your storry on some of the pet sites to warn others.I hope we get to see him with his new trim, a sort of before and after look lol.:)

Kenzi, when you say these e-mails have been threatening so you have now blocked them, do you mean they have been threatening to harm you and menacing? Do you feel frightened by them?

If so, please make sure that you contact the police as well, just keep absolutely everything as evidence.

They are obviously trying to intimidate you so that you leave them alone either because they are scamming puppy farmers or as previously said using identity theft and you are getting too close for comfort.

Do you have a couple of friends who can pretend to be interested in a pup and get into the premises that way to see what is going on?

Vinya,thats so kind and of course i will post pics with his new hair do. Carrington,they didnt threaten to harm as such but were threatning never the less,they were just awful! One email said....you scottish ignorant and was signed...you idiot...thats the kind of person im dealing with.i have one email saying that when the papers arrive they are keeping them and that im simply not getting them.

i have one email saying that when the papers arrive they are keeping them and that im simply not getting them.

Gosh, wish I could remember which poster recently had the exact same thing said to them too, a lot of this going on............

Legally, if you are sold a pup advertised with KC reg papers that is what you legally must be given, no-one is allowed to withhold them, unless they want to be taken to court.

I so, so wish you had a better experience from a reputable breeder without all this nonsense, there are charlatans in every corner of the dog world and unfortunately they are growing all the time.

The other poster was probably me,this post was about the pup perhaps not being purebred.

No, it wasn't you - it was someone who went to America, I think.

It was Kimbo. It all turned out well in the end. :-)

Wasnt it the same story  in white Mini Schnauzer?  *eek*
Same words quoted.."even if they come now -youre not getting them"

Plot thickens as I think this pup has MS in it!

oh dear,well lets hope i manage to put a stop to this particular breeder.

No sorry that was the sick puppies and no refund of deposit. Honestly, there are some awful stories around.

Kenzi, If you still have the emails sent by the breeder, which you would need for evidence, there should be a way to view the source of the email, that will let you know whether the email actually came from the person you believe it's from - or from another place ;)

This will help you figure out how to do it http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=22454

Hope you get to the bottom of it, but whatever happens you have a lovely, cute little guy for your daughter and no-one can take that away :)

Kenzi, I just wanted to say that your puppy is gorgeous! 

He looks like a poodle to me but maybe something to keep in mind is that someone who is breeding for the more interesting colours (and the pet market) isn't nessesarily breeding for type, or even know what the correct type is.

Please post more pics after he has had a trim, he really is stunning :)

One email said....you scottish ignorant and was signed...you idiot...thats the kind of person im dealing with.

Must admit Kenzi even though I still think your poodle is actually a poodle, though time will tell on that one as he matures, you must keep us updated over the coming months as to how he turns out.

I would be hell bent on tearing these people down a strip or two if they called me such horrible names, it's one thing to be taken for a fool but to have your nose rubbed in it by name calling is quite another.

I can't imagine in my wildest dreams any breeder on here ever calling their pups owners names like that.

thanks guys,will keep you all posted x

they cannot legally do that and from the sounds of it you have PROOF in the emails that they are intentionally witholding the papers , they are trying to intimisate you into not taking it any further if i were you i would deffinatly not back down and pursue this case through all channels contact the kc ,trading standards and the police . Can you trace the breeder at all to see if they have had their identity stolen ?
i really feel for you and hope you get the situation resolved soon x

> This post was to help me legally not insult me for not giving the pup a shaved face like a poodle.

I think your misunderstandign/being over sensitive.

The reason your having doubts about his breed is exactly (along with the dodgy dealings over paperwork, and not seeing parents) because his face and feet have not been clipped like a poodle, as that is primartily what gives them the characteristic look.

> The parents are meant to be eye tested so if it goes to court and i get the papers(

If you have the (purported) parents names you can check for health tests and also compare to any offspring health tests.

thats a good idea. stick his peddigree name in the KC heath page and see what comes up. or if you post his name someone can do the checks for you hun

Kenzi, I can understand you are getting upset at what you see as crticicsm  of your pup, but if you want helpful advice it has to be honest.  And honestly, yes he looks very much like he may be a not very well bred, therfore not terribly good quality, 100% poodle, he could also be a half poodle who has taken more toward the poodle part, or even threequarter poodle.  The easiest way to get a better idea is to have him trimmed by a good poodle groomer (not just any old pet groomer).  He is going to need his ears cared for regularly anyway at the groomers, even if you don't want him in a full poodle clip, but I really feel that you need one (or more) poodle experts to see him and give you thier opinion, and it is not possible to do so with him in all his puppy fluff.  He coudl jsut as easily be a cockerpoo or any other "Poo" mix from these pics.

Kenzi, I don't have anything constructive to add to this thread (have absolutley zilch experience of poodles) but just wanted to say whatever your pup is absolutley gorgeous! Sorry you've had such an awful time with the breeder (hindsight is such a wonderful thing, right?), I hope you manage to get to the bottom of what is concerning you & if they turn out to be as unscrupulous as you feel they are, I wish all that is coming to them!!!

I wish you a long and happy life with your lovely pup and look forward to the updated photo's when he's had a little trim.

Tanya

he is  a very cute puppy regardless of how pure or not he may be :)
reckon will look even cuter when had a grooming session.
I would be inclined to clock this up to experience and just enjoy him for what he is. No point letting his origins tarnish the pleasure of a pup

I have really cheered up with your lovely comments,thanks so much.I may be wrong but i think the lady Who had the problem with the white mini schauzer may be the same breeder as this little guys,i have just found out she breeds white mini schnauzers and not only that ive found another 4 breeds too,am shocked because when i first contacted them you would never have guessed this would be the out come,let this be a warning to others who are thinking of buying a puppy,you would think i would have more sense because i have had pedigree dogs all my life but ive learnt that getting a pet quality puppy and not a show puppy,the research should be exactly the same!

One thing I tell people when they ask me what to ask on the phone/in e-mail is to say they are calling/writing about the puppy advertised.   If the answer is Which breed? or Which litter - run a mile, as that means they have more than one litter at the same time and more than one breed ;)  It's something I was told about buying a second-hand car years ago - how to tell a dealer from a genuine home seller, but it seems good for pups too  ;)

As they say hindsight is 20/20 vision - no-one has that ;)

> I may be wrong but i think the lady Who had the problem with the white mini schauzer may be the same breeder as this little guys

Oh my goodness, that would be a nasty co-incidence! I would think, if true, then that person really needs to be stopped breeding if possible.... and every complaint pursued, as you certainly won't be the only one/s.

I looked at the pics and he is really adorable! (And I don't normally 'do' Poodle types! LOL)
I hope you will post more as he gets older, if he keeps that colouring he's going to be such a pretty boy!

Thanks,he is such a lovely boy x

Yes, I'm a huge sable fan - didn't know it happened in poodles, but love the colouring in American cockers, sadly hubby doesn't so not much chance of my longed for sable and white parti! And like the others, we'll be very interested to see more pics as he grows up. :-)

> Its not just because he has the full coat,if you saw him in the flesh you would probably see that there are far more features that just dont add up,not just the full coat.i know poodles have long noses but he just does not have a poodle nose.Friends who have owned poodles have all said he isnt full poodle

not to say yay or nae to whether he's a poodle or not but another thought, my bullmastiff (full pedigree and from a kennel of champs) doesn't look at all like a bullmastiff, he looks like a mastiff. Far longer nose, more pronounced wrinkle, looser body, bigger etc to the extent that mastiff people i meet say he is a mastiff (he's really not...). Throwbacks happen and sometimes genetics just play funny tricks.

my point being, your daughters boy is only a tiny baby yet and it sounds as is from not the best lines (if both poodle), perhaps he's just not very poodl-ish (yet)? perhaps he just has a pointy nose?

> let this be a warning to others who are thinking of buying a puppy,you would think i would have more sense because i have had pedigree dogs all my life but ive learnt that getting a pet quality puppy and not a show puppy,the research should be exactly the same!

it should be exactly the same because both come from the same litters. most well bred litters will only have a couple of pups that show, the rest are soley pets :)

I agree that you should post about your experiences on other forums, though I appreciate that it might be hard as this has been a very difficult and painful experience for you. However, as you've indicated you ended up in this position because you didn't realise the risks of these people ripping you off and that research is vital in advance. If you were able to post about it elsewhere hopefully others could take something from the experience and something positive (other than your boys cuteness!) could come from it.

I think that we on the forum, who have mostly been involved or connected to the show world in some way for a while, don't always equate that new or less experienced 'doggy people' don't automatically research getting a dog. Don't get me wrong, they should! But a lot of people grew up with the idea that you get a dog from a friend, or from a newspaper ad etc. That kind of thinking has transferred to the internet age into epups making it even easier :( Experiences like Kenzi's being shared might, hopefully might, make people take a moment to think about the way they are going about things.

>I think your misunderstandign/being over sensitive.

>The reason your having doubts about his breed is exactly (along with the dodgy dealings over paperwork, and not seeing parents) because his face and feet have not been clipped like a poodle, as that is primartily what gives them the characteristic look.

Exactly.  I have already explained that I did not criticise, but my apology has not been accepted.  And my years of poodle experience obviously count for nothing.  I honestly believe that this is a poodle, but that isn't want kenzi wants to hear.  But I sincerely hope that this pup is not going to wait for a groomer to see to his ears.  I certainly hope that, at 3 and a half months, he has had regular ear care.  I would have shown a new pup owner how to pluck, and to advise just plucking 2 or 3 hairs at a time, say 2 or 3 times a week.  I never give a pup chance to know what it's like to end up with red raw ears.  They will only get to hate having you look inside them.

*Sigh*  I will back down now from giving advice on poodles seeing as I know so little about them.

Astarte,once i get this whole mess sorted out i think its a very good idea that i share this experience,i only hope this sorry situation gets sorted out soon and we can continue loving this little guy regardless whether he is a poodle or not but these breeders need to be stopped.

Kenzi, one point of your posts has just registered with me, you are doubting his poodle credentials  partly because he has a pointy nose, but poodles do have very pointy noses.  If you have a look at the poodles here http://web.mac.com/afterglow01/iWeb/Afterglow/Standard%20Poodles.html you will see what I mean.

Admin, I am a bit vague on the rules of linking ot websites, so i hope this is OK in the interest of helping the OP.

And Kenzi, please do listen to the very good advice you have been given about grooming, for coated breeds it is important for their own wellbeing and happiness to get them to a good groomer as soon as injections have kicked in, so they can become accustomed to the person and the enviroment and have a gentle introduction to the equipment.  Show bred poodles will be introduced to grooming as young pups by their breeders, I would guess this is not the case with you pup.  You were also given some excellent advice about home coat care - brushing alone can be counter productive, expecially if done with a bristle rather than pin brush.  I once had a Bichon in for a clip who was brushed almost every day with a pure bristle  brush and washed and towel dried regularly.  The first 2 inches of his coat were clean and fluffy, the rest was matted solid, I had to clip him as you shear a sheep, and his coat came off in almost 1 complete fleece as I peeled it back slowly as I moved the clippers on.

Thanks for the advice gwen,i am however well aware that poodles have pointy noses lol,i now realise how silly that sounded.what i mean is i have seen lots of pics of poodles in non traditional groom with hair on the nose and he doesnt look anything like them,if you saw him in real life you would see what i mean but i am now concentrating on getting something done about this awful breeder.

Does anyone know the location of the dodgy breeder with the white schnauzers? When i read the older posts,what that breeder said to her was almost identical to this breeder and they too have mini white schnauzers,have pmd the lady concerned but it looks like she isnt a regular on here x

well after a bit of detective work ive found out that the breeder has had wirehair fox terrier x poodles and schnauzer x poodles.im going to see a solicitor this week because i want to stop this breeder lying to anyone else.im still trying to get a hold of the lady who lost her deposit or the white schnauzer pup,am pretty sure its the same breeder and need to gather as much info as i can before going to the solicitors.