Earlier i added a post about the puppy id bought for my daughter and the trouble id had with the breeder trying to get the kc papers.At the very last minute after saying i was going to take them to court they quickly registered a litter but mum was the wrong colour from the pics they sent( ive kept all emails and texts)/Anyway the pup is looking less and less like the breed he is meant to be and quite a few people have commented on another breed he is starting to resemble and im now more than sure he is a mix of the 2 which would explain the breeders dodgy actions.Im just back from holiday so am intending to go to citizens advice but does anyone know where i stand legally.this pup as bought as a pet for my daughter( over the age of 18),my own dogs are an entirely different breed so i have no experience at all with this breed( the one its meant to be i mean).

I wonder if Admin would consider you naming the breed in this case and perhaps putting up a link to a photo. The reason I say this is that I own a breed that has two distinct 'types' working and show and they do look very different in a lot of ways.  There might be breed specific knowledgeable people that would be able to look at a photograph and say what their opinion is.  Might save a lot of stress in the long run if what you have is a working type when you were expecting a show type or vice versa.

There's no problem naming breed as the OP does not have a litter of their own.

Like I said before, Trevor Cooper of Dog Law is the best bet for legal advice.

its a miniature poodle and i was told his colour was rare( sable) again another mistake but because he as my daughters choice and i simply dont have any knowledge of the breed,plus my daughter found plenty info( usa not uk) we went ahead.this little guy looks very much like a lakeland cross or even a wire hair terrier cross,i could see his face slowly changing and he is definately not a poodle,perhaps a cross but not 100%.my daughter loves this little guy so she isnt giving him up,this is about stopping the breeder before he does it again because its very unfair not to mention illegal!!

What did his mother look like?

I think it might be a good idea to get opinions from Poodle Exhibitors/Breeders/Judges in your area, and perhaps a vet too (although lots of vets are not good at identifying cross breeds).  IF you let us know what area you are we should be able to pint you in the direction of experts who can give you informed opinions, you can then go armed with this to Trading Standards.

Have you had it groomed yet? We get poodles in the groomers which I own who don't resemble poodles until they are cut like a poodle?

Yes, I agree Thompson1, you only have to look at photo's on google of sable poodles to see that without the cut they could easily be mistaken for other breeds especially before the facial features have become pronounced.

However, there are some dodgy dealings going on obviously with this breeder, whether the pup is a pure breed or not, but without proper papers you can never really say that it is a pedigree, where is the proof?

Do they keep other breeds as well out of interest kenzi?

you could consider getting the pup DNA tested for breed.  The KC will be interested if the breeder is registering pups with the wrong parentage - I bought a pup from a guy who was later banned for 10years by the KC for non registering and incorrectly registering so they do take action.

Depending what you paid you could go to Court for a refund of what you paid (ie price for a pedigree KC registered pup) and what your pup is worth - although these days of course cross breeds may be 'worth' more than pedigree, but it's what you were sold that will be the key.  A phone call to trading standards at your local council will be worth it - they'll let you know if other complaints have been received and they may well prosecute.  They'll also help you to take the case to the small claims.

What colour was the mother and father, and did you see them both ?
What colour was the rest of the litter?

Were there any other breeds on the property or does the breeder advertise litters of other breeds ?
Did you get this persons details via the breed club, UK Poodles website or KC website ?

As you have no doubt worked out by now he is not a KC breed standard accepted colour so would be called a mis mark or parti or as in your case 'rare'.
I suppose this shows that you should research, research, research.
I hope your daughter has many years of fun and love from him, whatever he is. X

a puppy poodle would have a very soft fluffy longish coat,im not sure a terrier would?
how does his coat FEEL??
If i were you and this is because your daughter isnt giving him up,id get him dna tested.you can go into your local vets and buy a kit and it will tell you what he comes from...

I mirror the questions had been said before.
what colour was mum?
did u see him with his mum and litter mates?
did you see mums pedigree and heath testing if any? there doesnt have to be any other puppies on site to prove he dont have other litters eles where,some people are just very careful....ive met one and outed her too!!

i hope you get this resolved

I never met the mum because hile i was at the hotel the breeder asked if it ould be easier if she took him to me,looking back i know this is very stupid butthey erent preventing me from going there at all,this was my choice and a very foolish one too,i realise that now.They sent me pics,mum was sable although they called her silver beige and dad was cream.In the litter there were 2 black,2 sable,2 black and tan.as a very young pup he did look like a poodle pup,his fur is definately soft and wavy like a poodle pup and not like a lakeland etc,its his face that seems to resemble that breed a bit.How do i go about dna testing him and how reliable is this.The breeder,when he realised i wasnt giving up about the kc papers quickly registered a litter and when i asked the kennel club what colour mum was they said black.i have kept the email with pics attached and a text stating colours of mum  and dad.

there are lots of websites that do the dna testing heres some links:

www.wisdompanel.co.uk £60

www.dnamydog.com

www.animalgenetics.us

something iffy there but the main thing is the pups loved and cared for hope you get to the bottom of it x

All sounds very dodgy to me.  Very few if any reputable breeders in the poodle world would be deliberately breeding 'sable' poodles as not a colour recognised by UK KC in the breed standard.  Breed standard allows for showing all solid colours, blues and silvers take longer to clear but any breeder with experience will know these colours by time puppy is sold.  Sable, phantom, black & tan, parti are all colours that at one time were very much discouraged as faults, they were rare as breeders didn't want them therefore were careful about breeding certain lines.  Now of course anything that is deemed rare will appeal to the public, as byb market them as such. I doubt very much you'll find show people deliberately breeding them.  It is a different story in the USA where every colour you can imagine is bred for, including brindle for the pet market.

All the poodles we've ever owned and in all sizes have not shown wirey coats at such an early age.  Puppies will be fluffy until coat change at about 6/9 months but the coat will harsen in certain areas first, neck and back first, head, legs and tails later.  I would go with the grooming suggestion, the groomer will have a fair idea if it is a full poodle but only a poodle expert can tell you without DNA.  At worst you have been sold a cross breed, at best a very poor example of a poodle.  I hate to say this and I don't mean to suggest this is what you have done, but back yard bred poodles just like a lot of other dogs can be so poorly bred that on paper they will be a poodle but will be a world away from a good show specimen. 

There are some breeders out there who are so used to selling to Joe public who wouldn't know a dog from a monkey that they rarely get challenged.  We used to have one locally who breed white toy poodles, bichons and westies, they all ran together and when pups were born they were sold as whatever was currently fashionable!!  When bichons first became popular they all looked like toy poodles round here as that's what they were but were sold as bichons!

When a breeder owns the dog and bitch and they are registered with the kennel club nobody actually knows whether the dog is the father it could be any dog for all the kennel club or the buyer knows, you only have their word, unless you go for DNA.  At the end of the day the puppy is very much loved but I can completely understand how you feel.

The pup doesnt have a wiry coat,he does actually have a soft poodle coat,his face is just so much like a wirehaired fox terrier or lakeland and not a poodle.does the dna test involve getting dna from the so called parents because i know the breeders will not co operate,infact they will most likely lie and say the mum has died or something i am sure of it.

But has the face been clipped? Unclipped Poodles look nothing like Poodles in the face.

no, just your pup

before we send thd OP off to spend more money on DNA tests do we know how reliable the results are likely to be?  I haven't had anythign to do with testing labs, but have read an article or two suggesting that they are not reliable on suggesting breed, showing several pedigree dogs to be something quite different, and crosses with odd results too.  Sorry, it has to be a couple of years back when I read this and have no idea where it was, do we know if the accuracy has improved?

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">In the litter there were 2 black,2 sable,2 black and tan.

A black & tan Poodle?    Does such a thing exist or should exist?

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">A black & tan Poodle?    Does such a thing exist or should exist?

well....they do BUT theyre calling them phantom poodles..ive seen one for sale actually ,a while back mind...and so very nearly stuck my nose in where it wasnt wanted and visited the pup and breeder to be nosey,but that normally results in nothing good for me so i decided not to go...and not to look at the advert no more.£1,000 they wanted!!!they have the typical rottie/doberman black and tan markings(used these as examples as im sure your perfectly aware of these breeds colourings)
so yeah black and tan but theyre (like been mentioned before)not a recognised colour.

with regards to dna i would think theyte fairly accurate...they wont guarentee you of a breed but it will say your dogs 96% likely to be a....

for example thats all...

try these:laboklin.co.uk

I wish I could find the original article i read about the tests, I seem to remember that an amazing amount of dogs came back as identified as Border Collie Cross, and the general consensus of opinions was that it was not worth the money, but things may have improved in leaps and bounds in the year or 2 since.

Yes, I saw that too Gwen.......... somewhere!

So Kenzi, I wouldn't bank on the test being accurate, if it comes back that there is a large percentage of poodle in the pup what good is that anyway, the mother could be poodle, the father could be poodle/cross, there is still room for a cross somewhere in the bloodlines there. And if yours comes back BC too, what will you do then? :-D

You've been duped, what reputable breeder takes a pup to a new owner in a hotel? Come on now, they obviously have never met you and you were getting the pup for your daughter so they had never met her either, who gives their pups to people they have never met?

The parents could even have been stolen or the pups, what kind of people have you been dealing with Kenzi, you should have known better than this.

Yes, go to trading standards the faulse pedigree is enough, I wouldn't bother with the DNA test what difference does it make the parents aren't the parents you know that, so there is no real pedigree for this pup anyway whether the pup is a full poodle or not, demand your money back and report to KC otherwise little else to do here.

I just can't believe you would break every rule there is in buying a pedigree dog and then be shocked you were duped. In all things you get what you pay for and if you don't protect yourself and do things properly be prepared to be scammed. :-(

oh dear!!! harsh but so right i totally agree with everything carrington has said...not that my opinion matters lol...

just get him health checked.x.x.x

I did not come on here to be spoken to like a child,im well aware i made a mistake but that in no way excuses what they have done.To everyone else that actually gave me good advice,thank you very much.

Obviously I haven't seen your pup and can't vouch for whether or not it's a cross.  But if your pup was given the poodle face-clip before you bought her, are you sure that it's not just the coat growing and giving the look ?   The clipping needs to be done every 6 weeks or so to keep the 'look' and to get the pup used to the whole procedure.   I have heard that some groomers refuse to groom pups before they are 6 months or so, but this isn't the best way to go about things as the pup has no chance to get used to being groomed and clipped and the coat can get unmanageable for the owners ;)

I've noticed this with Bedlington Terrier pups.   Those pictured on 'that' website from non-show breeders look very different to the pups of show breeders who get their first Bedlie baby clip at around 6/7 weeks and are then maintained regularly ;)

Its funny you should mention bedlingtons because tonight my friend who has a bedlington terrier said he is extremely like her dog at that age so i googled it and he is exactly like that,the poodle puppy pics have a totally different face.

Kenzi, I do think your best and quickest course of action is as I explained before, if you let us know what area you are in we will be able to recomend Poodle people who will give you expert opinion on if your pup is most likely a Poodle although  a not good one, or more likely a cross, or certainly a cross.  Then you can work out where ot go from there.

Kenzi, have PM'd you.

You can clip a Poodle into a Bedlington clip though! Look at this photo of a Poodle:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cpc-a-gogo/3219477744/
If it hadn't been black it would have been easy to think it was a Bedlington. 

Could you post a picture of your pup on here (you would need to host it elsewhere like flickr or photobucket first). That might help.

I certainly wouldn't throw good money after bad by getting one of the DNA tests - they are still not reliable enough for your purposes. If you could get the DNA of the alleged PARENT dogs, and then match that against your pup, that WOULD be proof one way or the other, but I suspect your chances of getting that DNA are absolutely zero.

>If it hadn't been black it would have been easy to think it was a Bedlington. 

ROFLOL

Only if you didn't own one :-D  :-D  Being black is the least of his worries :-D

But as pups they do look very similar.   When we got our first Bedlington puppy, from a reputable and very responsible breeder, I did go through a stage of being a bit uncertain that we actually had a Bedlington puppy, as her Bedlington puppy clip had long grown out at 11 weeks.   Luckily our vet had worked with a Bedlington breeder whilst training, and assured me that pup was exactly as she should be and the person who clipped her really knew what they were doing.  She could tell by the way the coat was growing out!  Every one else thought she was a Poodle pup!

Now I look at her puppy photos and it's very clear she was all Bedlington, but back then I was a novice in the breed :)

I didnt have photobucket so my daughter has just done it for me so hope this is right.http://s1050.photobucket.com/albums/s402/kenzihound/

the poodle puppy pics have a totally different face.

Kenzi,  that's because they all have been clipped around the muzzle, or at least trimmed between the eyes.  It's to emphasise the Poodle look.  The coat doesn't naturally grow like that ;)

Here's a pic of a non-traditional Bedlington trim where the eyes have been 'picked out' 

http://0.tqn.com/d/dogs/1/0/1/s/2/brennin_bedlington_wall2t.jpg 

Only if you didn't own one :-D  :-D  Being black is the least of his worries :-D

LOL yes I get that point. :)

Cute pup, never seen a sable before. I still reckon that if it was clipped, you'd get a MUCH better idea. The unusual colour and not being clipped makes such a difference.

Even the unclipped poodles look different,i think the pics dont show how long his face is,im pretty sure he is half poodle but not full.

Well, having kept poodles for around 35 years, I can see that (apart from the colour), that it could well be a POODLE.

Not a well bred one, but nevertheless, this is exactly how the coat looks when left far too long between clippings.

I certainly think it is a waste of money paying out for DNA testing.  I could honestly accept that this is a poodle from a BYB.

he is only 3 and half months old so hasnt had a clip yet,plenty of baths and is brushed daily,he is NOT neglected,far from it!!! Im actually getting very upset about the rude comments,simply because this little guy still has his fluffy baby coat and i know i made a mistake,just asked for some advice of the legal side.

Personally, I think the money you might have spent on a DNA test would be better spent on a visit to a good groomer ;)  I think you'd be pleasantly surprised :)   

he is only 3 and half months old so hasnt had a clip yet,plenty of baths and is brushed daily,he is NOT neglected,far from it!!!

Not neglected meaning you don't make an effort ;) but his coat does need trimming ;)  And do you use a comb?   the comb is your best friend with a coated breed where knots can appear out of thin air in no time ;)

At 14 weeks he's due for a puppy clip.  Many groomers aren't keen on wriggly puppies as they take more time and these often tell you to wait until at least 6 months old but if you can find a good one they'll have him in and he'll look lovely after and also have a nice introduction to the groomers and the routine:)

It's much easier to care for a well prepared coat than one left too long, and fairer to the pup/dog ;)

And your dog will look closer to what you would expect it to look like.   I've been looking online for some time now and haven't seen one photo of a completely untouched poodle pup.  They have ALL at least had a scissors to the face if not a clippers ;)

> Its funny you should mention bedlingtons because tonight my friend who has a bedlington terrier said he is extremely like her dog at that age so i googled it and he is exactly like that,the poodle puppy pics have a totally different face.

The little I know about Bedlingtons - it's not much, but garnered from someone I once knew who bred them -  is that they are often born with tan points but they have a gene which 'silvers' or bleaches out the colouring later on in life, and masks the tan points. I think the breed standard allows for those tan points, even though they are not apparent when adult (please correct if I am wrong).

Same could easily happen in Poodles which also have a gene that makes them lighten - as in the ones born black that turn "blue" and so on. I am not saying that Poodles are meant to be born tan-pointed... but those which might be - by accident or design - if they also have the gene which pales the colour, then they could probably pass as solid coloured when older. Likewise, a so-called Sable poodle with the silvering/paling gene could end up pale coloured with only a hint of yellow in certain places if at all.

I havent clipped him because i actually like the fluffy look and not the traditional poodle clip,his coat is in fantastic condtion,my daughter brushes him so much im surprised he has not got a bald spot!

It's many years since I worked as a dog groomer but Poodle puppies always had their feet and face clipped then before being sold which made them look like Poodles instantly.

This post was to help me legally not insult me for not giving the pup a shaved face like a poodle.I have chosen to have him fluffy,i simply dont like seeing a poodle with a nose shaved to the bone regardless whether its the way man says it should be.i will take him to my groomers for a face trim bath and general neaten up but his coat is soft,smells devine and absolutely not a tangle in sight so please no more insults that my daughter neglects this little guy,you couldnt be further from the truth!! ( this is with regards to posts suggesting i dont make an effort or neglect the pup)

I did NOT, at any point, infer that you were guilty of neglect.  :-(  I stated that I had seen neglected poodles.

At 3 and a half months I would have expected a minimum of 2 clips.  Certainly, when I picked up my first silver bitch, she was jet black, except for her newly clipped face.  She looked like a monkey!  As Ms Temeraire mentions, some colours take a while coming, and a pup with a silver face in the middle of all that black fluff looks quite ridiculous!  :-)

>just asked for some advice of the legal side.

Which is why I stated that I thought you had a poodle.  I was giving an opinion based on my experience, and accept that others may disagree.  This is a forum, they are allowed to.  I was just advising you not to waste hard earned money.  That was in no way intended to be offensive or rude.  I just don't think that you really have a case.

I didn't at any time say that your little cutie was not brushed daily - he desperately needs clipping, that isn't rude, it is honest.  However, again NOT being rude.  You have stated that he has had PLENTY of baths.  At 3 and a half months, that is far, far too many baths.  That is intended as helpful advice.

I now apologise profusely for everything you have taken offence at - I was trying to help.

>The little I know about Bedlingtons - it's not much, but garnered from someone I once knew who bred them -  is that they are often born with >tan points but they have a gene which 'silvers' or bleaches out the colouring later on in life, and masks the tan points. I think the breed >standard allows for those tan points, even though they are not apparent when adult (please correct if I am wrong).

:-D

Magic Colour Changing Dogs!
Blue Bedlington Terriers are born black, Liver ones are born dark liver brown, Sandy dogs are born a lighter chocolate brown.  All can come with or usually without tan points and all start to pale as they get older, so yes the tan is lost, any white spotting is also lost or just a snip left as adult.   The coat at birth is straight and shiny, pups look like Labrador pups and the coat begins to wave in the first few weeks.   The paler coat doesn't get really twisty (not curly) until they are near adult and the guard hairs can also take some time to appear.  Any damage to the skin will cause dark baby coat to grow at the site which disappears with age.  All Bedlingtons continue to change colour throughout their lives, going darker or lighter according to the season or their hormones or both!

I havent clipped him because i actually like the fluffy look
To keep a poodle in good condition, even if you want the body longer, he needs his face trimmed to keep it out of his eyes and his feet and tail clipped every 6 weeks.  As a groomer he just looks like every other poor quality poodle that I've seen, but a poodle never the less.  They're a very high maintenance breed.

Nothing to stop you having him clipped with a teddy bear clip, kenzi.  i.e. the face is kept longer than the usual shaved poodle face, but still fairly tidy.  Would imagine he'd be about ready for his ears to be plucked by now too....

He's a bit cute :)

Jean sw this is part of the comment you posted......    Not a well bred one, but nevertheless, I have seen many pet owners with neglected poodles, and this is exactly how the coat looks when left far too long between clippings.

To me this is not helpful but putting our little pup in the same sentence as ....neglected poodles.you must understand how hurtful this is,he is absolutely adored not neglected and ive never had a poodle so didnt realise they had to go to the groomers so early,that part of the advice i will listen to!

He is very cute, but if you want to be sure he is all poodle then I think you have to have him clipped to see - the  main reason he doesn't look like a poodle now is that he has a full coat.

Even if you intend to keep him in a full coat as an adult (and I think you will REALLY struggle, you don't have to have a 'silly' clip, but there IS a reason poodles are clipped!), having him regularly clipped and trimmed NOW will mean that as an adult he will not object to going to the groomers. It is important he learns this now regardless of what you want to do with his coat when he is older!

Kenzi, I think you are being a bit over sensitive here - JeanSW was qualifying her comment by pointing out that she has seen many neglected poodles, which means thats why shes seen so many with overgrown coats. Nothing in her comment implied that you are neglecting your puppy at all.