Help I need some stratergies to walk Brooke until we get this recall thing sorted At home we have practised recall and have been really succesfuly. trouble is she still has an issue with the lead so putting her on the lead even at home is a problem.No one has any idea why even taking her gentley by the collar out the house is a problem , it may have something to do with the car but even that is ok once she is in one. No on has any idea what started the problem
When out it is disaster to the point of dangerous as she will run in any directionaway from you when called which in some areas could put her in danger. She wont recall particulalry if she sees a lead any where near you and will dodge off anywhere else. Even if you drop the lead and call her she wont come near enough even to take treats, in fact once of the lead treats are of no interest strange in a treat orientated dog even high value liver cake and cheese or garlic sausage. So calling her andthen not putting her on the lead doesnt work she doesnt get near enough I have a long line (35ft )and have decided that she is going to have to be walked and trained on that although as previously discussed these can be problematic particulalry for a dog that wants or is playing. She is usually walked without gsd and the play all the tim. i also wonder if the long line would be better with a harness as otherwise she gets to the end and is inclined to be pulled to a sudden halt. Otherwise has any one any other ideas ie flexi lead ? Obviously this is a training issue but in the mean time \I need to take the right precauctions to keep her safe and from bothering others

What about leaving a short lead attached to a clip on collar (then if she gets it caught the clip will break) then you can work on her coming for treats and you gently picking up the handle which as it's already attached should'nt upset her as much.  A long line on a harness will be less aggressive if she suddenly gets caught.

> i also wonder if the long line would be better with a harness

Yes, it will stop any damage to her neck.

I was going to suggest you try a harness anyway as it may be a case of her associating the lead with pressure on her neck via the collar that she has issues with (negative association), rather than being attatched to a lead generally, as you said:

> No one has any idea why even taking her gentley by the collar out the house is a problem

Yes oi agree no real idea y it started but was noticeable almost from the beginning she never comfortably accepted the lead or going in the car always ran off. Had various trainers put forth" cures" we have more or less got over the entry to cars but not having lead put on or leaving house . She turns it into play tried to use harness but no joy this has turned into nightmare recall. Not first dog and never had problems before usual treats and practise indoors followed by more practice and trat out doors being silly myself to get thier attention on and off lead frequently when in the fields brooke. Is different has her own foibles so need stratergys for walking safely while learning any sort of recall lol then secure recall

sorry for appaling typing worse than usual :) was using blackberry

When I was helping with rehabilitating some adult dogs of my breed who had been kept as an unsocialised pack out in the sticks I used a harness and half check collar and two leads to get them out for lead road walking.

Collar only and the dog was in a throttling panic, harness only the startled dog was able to back out of one.  With the two I was able to minimise the pressure but ensure they walked with me with encouragement.

I did not let any of the three I looked after off lead at all, all walks were for socialisation primarily as well as exercise, but all three are reliable off lead in their new homes.  they were walking well in heavy traffic, visiting shopping centres and happy meeting people and dogs within 3 - 6 weeks.

All dogs need to go on lead, even if they never go free running off owners premises, so no matter what the lead has to be seen as the main way of getting walks.

So personally, especially if she enjoys walks all walks should be on lead as this will have a positive association with going for a walk.

I wonder if the harness is working in the same way as a thunder shirt? Just a quiery though, has she been checked to make sure there is no trapped nerve or anything untoward in the neck area?

I think I have acouple of problems going on here. One the fact that she hates going on lead or harness or actually anything that means she is leaving the front door constrained which she must for safety and anyway her "close "is no where near good enough to even consider walking her to the car with a gentle hand on her collar. this also manifests itself in not want ing to return to me when let of the lead in fact she bounces around just out of reach inspite of alsorts of daft games treats and encouragement. She has now increased the problem aka dangers by as soon as being let of lead darting off wherever she likes for as long as she likes returning when she fancies again too far away to go on lead.
All of this has led me to decide she must be on a long line/lead  at all times until I find away to solve the problem and before we have a problem with either a human or dog or an nasty accident with a vehicle.
She also thinks or acts as if the whole deal is good fun , being aflattie the world is a game.
I really dont like long lines or flexi with or without harness particulalry for dogs who want and need to play but cant see any way round it.
She is a funny girl different to any other dog I have had including a previous flat coat. Velcroed when in the house but get her out and the world is her oyster :)
Claire I will also have aword with the vet but I wouldnt be surpriesd if it is mor ethe area of a chiropractor or galen therapist or similar. Barbara i will also increase just road walks so she gets the idea of lead  + walk more and we dont have to come off it. Interestingly I have agundog lead as well as standard collar and lead and she walks better on the gundog lead which sits higher uo towards her chin. Still doesnt go on it any better

When I first read your post I thought it could have been a fear based problem but on reading your last post I am more inclined to think your girl is so excited at going out and having fun that as soon as you open the door she is ready to go and having hold of her is spoiling her fun lol. I would put a harness on her first thing in the morning and leave it on all day,you can attach a short lead to it and then all through the day take hold for a few mins,randomly go to the door,if she is calm open it,if she messes about just shut the door and ignore her. You must run her on a line when out as the more she has the option of staying out of your grasp the more she will do it and as you know that could be very dangerous for her. She sounds a real live wire bless her!!

Just wondered if she doesn't recall to just yourself or is it everyone?

Her recall to me is better than with others but still hard work to get her back. Her dog walker has to put her on a lead before they even attempt to start going home if that makes sense. Dog walker doesnt think its fear just that the lead curbs her fun as does getting in the car. The odd thing is she doesnt seem to associate getting in the car with a walk even with dog walker and there she is running free for a long time in enclosed fields and woods with other dogs for play.  With oh she is just awful hence the last time he took her out she ran the opposite way to where they were going at the start at walk and vanished good job I didnt know until it was over !! If the rest of them take her out its pot luck. All in all not safe. At dog trining she starts to come back to me and then if the door isnt closed will run straight out into the fields or starts playing silly around the hall. So recall has to be done on lead which is daft at 9 months. The recall problem only started at about six months previously it was just getting in to the car and putting on a lead
Think it will have to be long line and more pracice of short road walks. Will also try the harness in doors as rosecobabe suggests 

> Will also try the harness in doors

I forgot to say each time you hold the lead in the house ask her to sit then as soon as her bum hits the floor treat and release her. I really do think you have a fun loving strong willed little madam who knows at the moment she is calling all the shots (infuriating and you could cry with frustration, I know cos I've got my own little madam!) I had my girl on a harness and line for 2yrs before she begrudgingly conceded defeat.

Thanks roscobabe that makes sense will be looking out my short lead as we speak. I think you are right with the description of her character she is georgeous but such a naughty puppy :) So looks like we have away to do before she raises apaw to me and says ok lol
Eg I was teaching her to go down. None of the ideas at the classes were working so remembered an idea i had seen with a when I was observing a 1 to 1 trainier/ behaviourist for someone else. Basically stand by dog with treat get dogs attention and then wait for dog to do what you want really by the dog thinking what have I got to do and trying things as soon as she went dowe I treated her and added the command. A few times like this and we had down sorted. Unfortunately I am not quite sure how to use that for recall safely but will work on it . It was fasinating watching the dog think its way through different things
Not sure what this style of training is and unfortunately I have now found out that the lady has passed away , sadly . She was very good.

yay !Thanks for all your ideas. have just returned from wet and blustery walk with Brooke on harness and two halti leads so about 12ft of line and armed with garlic sausage
Success she was really good coming back to me mostly with enthusiasm. Started as we left the car making sure she knew I had treats and continued running about  ,away from her, backwards and forwards calling her and treating when she responded which was in most cases very quickly. Even managed to get her attention from chasing equally mad in this weather jogger.! Definite potential for success
Guess the line made me more confident as well as enabling me to get a positive reaction from her
Will keep practicimg and insist the others follow suit. At least oh has seen what I want him to do if he takes her out and that she does respond
Thank you after your help I feel at least more confident we can crack it and at least keep her safe in the meanwhile :) Now off to dry off :)

Brill, glad you've sussed what works for you & her. Keep up the good work :)

Thank you now to buy new harness as just as we went out I notice somehow little moo had found said harness which shouldnt have been on the floor anyway (now I wonder how that happened) and chewed part of it so really need anew one !!! Anyone any  recommendations I was lookig at the halti one as I like theri leads and it seems padded but also seems to use both ends of the lead for securing and I really only want one that clips on her back

> Guess the line made me more confident as well as enabling me to get a positive reaction from her
>

Great start. Yes the line probably did make you more confident because you knew that you were in control.That meant that you could relax and play with her instead of worrying about how you would get her back on the lead,or call her back if there was any bother. Just keep her on the line and  carry on as you have today. You can lengthen the line to give her more freedom but don't be tempted to  do without too quickly,if she is anything like my madam she will know when she is not wearing the line and you'll be right back where you started lol

thanks roscobabe yes when the jogger went passed I knew I wasnt going to have to start apologising as yet again she ignored me and tried jumping at him. iN fact it was nice to be able call come and after afew seconds thought on the line so no harm could be done came rushed backed to me saying ok I ve come now where is my garlic sausage !
Oh made me laugh when I asked if she was behaving an different than usual his reply well by now I would be chasing her and she would have gone ! maybe now he will take notice of what I did after reading your replies and thinking it through and not just keep saying she was appalling! shes not its her owners that are appalling for letting her get away with it  

> saying she was appalling! shes not its her owners that are appalling for letting her get away with it  

Lol No you're not appalling at all,you just happen to have a very full on,I want to do what I want to do when I want to do it smart puppy!!

and who loves Brie! she has just pinch the second piece of brie from the worksurface this time still in its wrapper so a quick wipe down and all is well lol
Think you could be right about her character !!

Oh god you have a Jozi.  She came back to me at 8 1/2 months, she lives simply to please herself, though she has been a show dog with that extra presence.

Jozi is now 12 and has not gone off lead except in a fully enclosed are since she was spayed at 7, and prior to that she was BOGOF come back when I am ready keep you in sight but out of reach dog.

Prior to her I was quite happy walking her 3 ancestors and Aunt off lead without a worry, their recalls weren't collie fast, and they ranged further than Velcro dogs, but they were pretty reliable.

She has single handedly undermined my confidence re any off lead allowances for all her younger descendants (who aren't bad, but I am always worried), who are mostly lead walked these days. 

Oh brainless that made me smile sounds like. You could be right together with a touch of the teenager too. She's odd quite velcroed when at home but yep when out I am sure she knows where I am am but in the meanwhile everything else needs playing with or investigating. I have started showing her but tbh although I enjoy it I am not sure about her as I think in her eyes its too much waiting around trying to be quiet and then for what ?  Standing in a ring being told top ignore everything. I will give her another go or two but may have to find something more interesting for her.  At least dher can safely be off lead with her dog walker as her fields are all enclosed. In the meanwhile I willl keep at the training for little madamshe is only young

Sorry coming to this a bit late really, but how different they all are eh - my Italian Spinone entire male age 2.5 is un-recall-able in the fields and moors around the house as he can see the house from pretty much all around and clearly feels he can therefore safely come home in his own time.

On walks away from home tho (basically, anything which involves a vehicle ride even if it's only 5 mins away) and he recalls beautifully pretty much all the time - occasional rare exceptions but even then it's only a 2-3 min or so delay.  It's down to him being worried that I'll drive off without him and as he can't see the house, he thinks he won't be able to find his way home, which scares him.  Hence 99.9% of our walks are now a 5 min drive away ;-)

Have you tried offering him a tasty treat before you let him off the lead and showing him that you have them in your pocket? I always carry some with me.

Mine's immune to food when out - live running rabbits, squawking pheasants, other dogs etc so much more exciting!

Hows it all going with Brooke?

> Mine's immune to food when out

Have you tried tasty dog treats from this company i bet he wouldn't be immune to them. http://tastydogtreats.weebly.com/
The lady who makes them you could ask her to make big pieces so that he would really get the taste in his mouth, she will do what ever you want you only have to ask her, i regually buy from her and i have just noticed that she's on ebay now so that might be an easier way to buy.

One of my dogs used to be like yours but he isn't now because he knows i carry the treats when i go on a walk, and he always comes back when i call him.

The way i did it was (i think someone else has already said this) is to call him back to me every now and again and give him a treat and then let him go again, he soon got the idea.

I'm wondering if dogs are harder to train than bitches, because i have always had bitches and they were easier to train than my dog, or maybe its just him!