I have been doing obedience with my sheltie for ages now.  I started a new class when I moved here, about a year ago and she and I  has quickly been promoted to the "Advanced" class where they coach you for competitions.  While she is ace at downs, sits and stays (and loves all of that) she just won't walk close enough to my leg.  Her heelwork is good in that she does a nice close sit these days  and I know she probably won't ever do wraparound heelwork like a border collie but I would like us to improve.  Any tips anyone?

Thanks

Snowflake

I'm hardly an obedience success story, but I think you're supposed to keep praising (or clicking if you do that) when you have lured her in as close as you want, and if she's pretty good generally at staying close, only give her the rewards if she is really really close. However, most breeds don't work wrapped round you like a collie, and the majority of judges will not penalise too much for it, as long as she is reasonably close and also stays at a constant distance rather than weaving in and out.

I would do lots of tight turn work...make her look at you and do short sided squares and triangles but not to many left turns till she is keeping very close with the right hand turns.
But then its a long time since I did any competition obedience, things may have well moved on a pace since then :-)
Aileen

I always teach "close" as a seperate exercise. Start by having your dog sitting close to your left leg and push her onto your leg telling her "close" as you push her onto you. Give lots of praise as you push. Next stage is to take a small step away to your right pushing your dog onto your leg at the same time. When you've got that right you can then increase the number of steps in small stages. From then on you can start on left hand circles,left turns (on the spot) always give your dog a gentle push onto your leg with the command "close" and if you take it steady you will end up with a dog that stays on your leg.

I really like this system of teaching your dog to pivot with front feet on a box, you can then use it to teach your dog to get really close to your leg, a large book might work for a sheltie :-)

Roscoebabe said "I always teach "close" as a seperate exercise. Start by having your dog sitting close to your left leg and push her onto your leg telling her "close" as you push her onto you. Give lots of praise as you push. Next stage is to take a small step away to your right pushing your dog onto your leg at the same time. When you've got that right you can then increase the number of steps in small stages. From then on you can start on left hand circles,left turns (on the spot) always give your dog a gentle push onto your leg with the command "close" and if you take it steady you will end up with a dog that stays on your leg."

Nooooo, if you do all the work by pushing her (a) she won't learn to do it herself and (b) she might resent the handling and actually want to work further away from you because you have been too hands on. Left circles would also be a big no-no as you are forever walking into the dog unlesss their position is perfect. By doing this you can upset/demotivate dogs as they feel as if they are constantly in the wrong because every step you take knocks the dog. They may then learn to work wider/lag to keep out of your way.

If it were me I would do lots of short, positive static work so your dog knows her h/work postion really well before you even step off. If she cannnot come into heel quickly and accurately, I would not move from the spot as it will only get worse on the move. I would lure in her using really nice sweeties, asking her to sit really close an tight on your leg. Keep doing this and you will hopefully find that after lots of repetition over lots of short sessions, she will be bringing herself into heel as you ask/lure her. I would also concentrate on her knowing where you want her head position to be. Again, you can lure her and then ask for duration and also start to test it by leaning slightly away, gently trying to push her muzzle down/off the leg to see if she resists this and keeps the head position. Obviously only do a little bit of testing when you feel she is rock sold with the head position. If she struggles with the testing then (a) go back to luring and reinforcing that and (b) help her during the testing by using a titbit/wiggly left hand fingers to encourage her to keep her head up and tight on your leg. Break off lots of time by throwing a sweetie/toy so she gets a break from it and also lighten up the potential seriousness of asking for accurate work. This is just to start you off - remember it can take years to teach a solid heelwork position (I don't put my dogs in the ring until, generally, they are at least 2 years old) so don't rush it and don't compete until you feel your dog could murder a Beginner round as they are often weaker in the ring than they are in training and soon learn that they can get away with giving less than 100% if you don't use training rounds to help your dog when they need it. 

> Nooooo, if you do all the work by pushing her (a) she won't learn to do it herself and (b) she might resent the handling and actually want to work further away from you because you have been too hands on.

It simply teaches where you want the dog to be and it does work exactly the same way  as the "watch " ,you teach the dog by pushing the head onto you then once the dog knows what you want you give a slight push away. The dog will then push back and be rewarded of course. This method was and still is being used by top obedience handlers so it obviously does work.

That is not how many of the top handlers teach their dogs nowadays, it is a very old fashioned method and things have moved on a lot. It is unnecessary (and counter-productive quite often) to be hands-on when you can teach all this by luring the dog so he learns to get into position by himself and does not have to rely on you placing him. In fact you could be teaching the opposite reaction - I push you onto the leg, you want to move off it as an equal and opposite reaction. Also, if you push the dog onto the leg and then push the dog off the leg, how does he know what you actually want as if you have rewarded him for being pushed onto the leg then equally he could expect to be rewarded for being pushed off the leg. Very confusing. Btw I have worked Championship C and had several other dogs who were C only (including rescues), I also bred two Obedience Champions in one litter, have run my own dog training club for 12 years, been in Obedience for 30 years, taught dog psychology and training at college, had a book published on dog training. May I ask what your background is please? 

I think my Cavalier is about as close as she's likely to get, considering I have trouble walking a straight line and am also knock kneed, so we will always lose marks if the judge hasn't noticed that she can't get her head much closer without standing on my feet! But I'd love to get a straighter sit at heel, any advice? If I keep my hand on my side where I have it while moving, she sits with her bum sticking out so she can watch my face. If I hold my hand out from my body to lure her straight she sits straighter but wide. She's 7 years old now and a little deaf, so it might be too late to do much, but we dabbled a bit in formal obedience a few years back (we mostly do rally obedience now) and we've entered South Eastern Toy limited obedience show and it would be fun to pick up one more win to win out of toy only Beginners classes. :-)

> May I ask what your background is please? 

I competed in obedience for close on 40yrs,and have trained with Bruce and Bronwyn Bartley and Gerrard Paisley and a few more besides.I retired from showing about 5yrs ago but still keep in touch with friends. Why do you ask?

> if you push the dog onto the leg and then push the dog off the leg,

Nowhere have I said I push the dog off my leg.

My Tilly doesn't do close heelwork, there is daylight between us.  Hasn't stopped us winning pre-beginner :)  As long as the dog keeps a constant position a gap is ok.  Some dogs heelwork is too close, you shouldn't be hitting the dog in the face with your leg every step!
I have taught Ember differently and she has only now, at 2 years old, started doing turns.  When teaching heelwork, to check she has got it, I actually try and (gently!) push her nose off my leg, this makes her push into my leg more.

I "simply" teach my dogs (cockers, so small) to follow my hand held away from my body touching it with their nose (first with a treat), then gradually bring the hand up so they follow the hand without touching. Once this position is stable, I bring my hand onto my leg/hip and the dog will automatically move into the leg. Reward the close position like this and gradually increase the distance expected.

Lucy:re sitting straight: do it along a wall so she cannot swing her bum out and gets used to sitting straight.

Thanks, I've had that suggested before, I keep forgetting all these training tips! Will put in a bit of work before South Eastern Toy on straight sits, thanks!

RoscoeBabe said "once the dog knows what you want you give a slight push away." which confirms, RB, that you did say to push the dog off the leg. You've told me who you trained with but not what you have achieved.  What classes did you work RoscoeBabe? Just interested.

Re sitting straighter at heel. If you are talking about halting during/at the end of heelwork, if the dog is sitting crooked it 'might' indictate that he was not holding the correct h/w position to begin with and this culminated in the crooked sit (eg if he is working wide, then he might either move in closer when you halt - which is markable - or he might just sit wide of you/crooked as that is where he has been working). This is the most likley cause of a crooked sit. Another possibility is that you might be making him sit crooked with your body signals eg if you unwittingly swing your left shoulder back as you halt, the chances are that he will sit crooked, probably tucked in behind you. Conversely, if you were to move your left shoulder forward as you halt, he might sit crooked again but this time with his bottom sticking out. I wouldn't bother with the wall suggestion - you don't tend to get many walls in the ring lol. I would rather teach the dog to know his h/w position and also teach the halts as a separate exercise (so as not to muck up the rest of the h/w). It might also be a simple case of what your left hand is doing on the halt. To be honest, if the dog is heeling nicely, the left hand shouldn't need to move at all as this indicates to the dog where you want him to be. If you move it, it would indicate to me (as a judge/trainer/fellow competitor) that the dog is out of position.

wouldn't bother with the wall suggestion - you don't tend to get many walls in the ring lol

No, there's no walls in the ring LOL, but the dog can learn to halt straight and it will in time become a habit - it certainly is working for my dog that does the same.

Both Lucy and I work small dogs (Cavaliers and cockers - and of course I don't know what size dog you work ;-) ) and I too have the problem that my cocker swings out because he tries to look up at me eventhough he holds his heel position straight on the move. I've never had that problem with my larger dogs. It does also matter very much what the left hand and shoulder is doing of course!

> RoscoeBabe said "once the dog knows what you want you give a slight push away." which confirms, RB, that you did say to push the dog off the leg. You've told me who you trained with but not what you have achieved.  What classes did you work RoscoeBabe? Just interested.
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That was referring to the "watch me" command not the "close" position so no I have not said  to push the dog off the leg. Please take time to read my post correctly before mis quoting me.

Yes, I'm almost certainly doing things with my hands and shoulders, sadly I have very little idea what I'm doing when it goes right or wrong. The wall idea is a good one, that I've had suggested to me in the past, but I'm out of practice with traditional obedience and had forgotten about that tip, thanks! :-)

RB said "It simply teaches where you want the dog to be and it does work exactly the same way  as the "watch " ,you teach the dog by [url=]pushing the head onto you [/url]then once the dog knows what you want you give a slight push away. The dog will then push back and be rewarded of course. This method was and still is being used by top obedience handlers so it obviously does work."

If you are pushing the head onto you, as you said above, then this IS referring to the dog being in the h/w position. Still haven't heard what classes you worked yet? No need to be shy lol.