Blimey - Jeff Luscott was pretty rough wasn't he!  The Great Dane looked a bit worried by his chin lifting and full on nostril grab when looking at teeth and he wasn't the only dog unsettled by this judge's heavy handling.

Is he always like that - or would he usually pause to say hello first?  He was quite a contrast to most of the judges that have been before, Annette Oliver and Geoff Corish to name two, both being very thorough but courteous and gentle with the dogs.  I know our show dogs are supposed to be able to cope with being assessed by a variety of judges and styles, but I could see some young dogs being really spooked by JL's handling...

I knew you were going to say that when I saw the title, I thought he was rough too.  Especially opening the mouth and shoving his thumb between the eyes!  In comparison I thought the pastoral judge was lovely!  I suppose the dogs are used to both, but I'd have hated being a puppy under the working judge.

edited because I'm tired and should be in bed, so can't type or spell!

> In comparison I thought the pastoral judge was lovely!

Wasn't it a marked difference!!! He had a great ring manner.
(Is he an All Rounder that judge?)

Albert is a fab judge great with the dogs can pick a winner a mile off but can be incredibly scarey and no none sense with bad handlers lol as I found out when he told me off for my shoddy triangle, but he was right :-p

He clumped the newfies teeth together , yes , he was rough . Well done those dogs  who tolerated that handling.The dane was obviously worried by him as standing beautifully for the final line up , then turned her head as she knew the judge was walking up behind her to go towards the top of the line up.

Crikey I spotted lots of shoddy triangles in the group, more like circles!

Feel I need to defend Jeff a bit here I have shown under him with utility breeds both as pups and adults and found he was fine with them what may have looked harsh on TV may not actually have been. He is a well renowned judge who judges several breeds both here and abroad.

Hes judged my boy before and no rough handling. Also he was referee for best puppy yesterday for my breed and didn't feel him rough for handling wise. It's not on YouTube yet do can't comment on yhe group.

Crikey I spotted lots of shoddy triangles in the group, more like circles!

LOL I thought they were doing circles!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree he did look rough, but I have shown under him numerous times in sibes and import and he has been fine

I thought he looked rough too and commented on it at the time (in the comfort of my home) but I too have been under him several times and he has never been rough (gundogs).

My only criticism is, he takes ages to send his critiques to the papers...judged last October, sent critique last week (after being hounded by breed club!), it won't be in the papers for a while, if ever!

He gave the distinct impression of being very self-important because of doing a group at Crufts. There was absolutely no need to be so rough with those dogs, the poor Dane could be put off showing for ever because of his manner. Thank God there wasn't a puppy group: he could have finished some of them. And why on earth did he short-list the Dogue who pulled away from its handler all the way round the ring yet left out some really good ones?

He looked rough to me too, I wouldn't have liked to have my Cavs handled like that. But if people who have actually showed under him think it looked worse than it was, I'll give him the benefit.

I was so shocked at how rough he was. In fact disgusted. If it were my dog regardless of being in the group i would not have help my tongue. Several dogs looked shocked at the rough handling. Lets hope they arent put off by the experience.

I thought the same... I said that too my OH .. weird then to come on here and it an actual topic !

Yes as soon as I saw the title I thought that was what we would be discussing.
Now tonights hound judging was lovely to watch ,a pleasant man enjpying his job and being courteous and kind to all exhibitors and the dogs I really enjoyed it.

I thought the working group judge had no rapport with the dogs - when dogs have won to that level they are usually pretty bomb proof, so for more than one of them to spook there has to be something not right.
I went under him a while ago at an open show, and felt that he was thinking about what he would have for his dinner later on rather than the dogs.
This is in direct contrast to Frank Kane, who is gentlemanly, gives equal time to each dog even if it is obviously not going to win, and writes prompt and perceptive critiques.

I too sat watching on TV, his over zealous approach/going over of the dogs & he totally spooked the Great Dane whom I believe has done a fair bit of winning.

On the other hand I have exhibited under him & not noticed him being like that with my breed. So am a little puzzled.

I also noticed a totally different approach by Albert Wight the Pastoral judge. The Hound judge always judges in a slightly different way, sending dogs around the ring in 3's, similar to the way he did in the final cut of the hound group...Frank Kane also has done the same in my breed...it does mean, with the larger classes, there is more room for the dogs to go at a more correct pace & easier to look at 3 or so dogs & not get such a dizzy feeling trying to concentrate on more dogs...lol

I keep a list of judges doing my breed, what they are like when judging, what they like or dislike. When I watched the working group judging I said to my husband he's going on my list for rough handling. Then I went and checked and he was already on my list and had been for the past 2 or 3 years, with a comment saying too firm! So clearly I'd watched this before and forgotten about it. (Hence keeping the list!)

I feel I must defend Jeff as i have read all the post on here about his rough handling of the dog in the working Group I have been judged by Jeff on a few times an have not felt he is rough at all with the dogs and he is very good with exhibitors and has time for then.He is not a rough judge with the dogs .
Maybe he was under presser with time limit I did notice that non of the exhibitor came back to start moving there dog again if it was not moving correctley which in a normal show most exhibitor would do .
So not have been in the group at crufts I was wondering if you are told what you can do and what you can't prior to going in to the group.

I've been under Jeff a few times with both my boys & never noticed rough handling
He was very kind & came across that he really loved judging when I've been under him.

Maybe he was just nervous, come on, wouldn't you be?! All those lovely dogs and you have to pick the best........with all those lights, cameras, people watching you.

Maybe he was just nervous, come on, wouldn't you be?!

In that case, why was he also nervous a couple of years ago at a normal champshow where I made my note about his handling?!!

However, the Great Dane breed standard says of temperament :"Kindly without nervousness, friendly and outgoing." I didn't see that in the big ring, unfortunately.

Im often surprised to see judges hands shaking when they start to go over my dogs, some big names too.

The occasion, stage fright or whatever may have been the cause.
Ive never found him to be rough.....brisk and a little distracted perhaps, but never rough.

I must admit I like Jeffs confident no nonsense way of going over the dogs - my breed hates the kind of judges that wave the back of their hands at the dog and walk around them for ages before touching them as if they are going over an unexploded bomb !  - mind you he IS late with his critiques - come on Jeff - send in those Groenendael critiques for LKA !!

Yvonne

> Maybe he was just nervous, come on, wouldn't you be?!
>
> In that case, why was he also nervous a couple of years ago at a normal champshow where I made my note about his handling?!!

Suppose it comes down to each dog & person on how they take each judges handling of a dog.

You may think one judge heavy handed and I think them ok, or I may think one is faffy and you think they're great.

I didn't see that in the big ring, unfortunately.

It's not so strange for a dog that is hurt to get wary, and I certainly watched a judge that  squashed the noses up in his hand and bent them backwards to see the front teeth. I've seen a ringcraft judge do the exact same and ruin many a dog that way.

> that  squashed the noses up in his hand and bent them backwards to see the front teeth.

I would no more put up with this from a judge than I would from my own vet when he checks their teeth.  I don't have namby pamby toys - they all believe they're collies, but my dogs are not used to having me stuff their noses backwards, and I won't let someone else do it.

I too did not like what I saw. I would hate a judge to be ruff with my girl, it would upset me and her. my dog  always shows well for happy judges that are nice to her.  No need for ruff handling by a judge or handler IMO