>> The Uk standard calls for 1/3 muzzle and any shortening of this can cause problems.
> That is clearly very helpful to have a specific proportion laid out like that.

Perhaps all Brachy breeds should have this added to their breed standards. 

Boxers here in the UK have a decent muzzle length by and large compared to some other countries.

With this kidney issue some advise importing from abroad, but as the gene responsible and mode of inheritance isn't confirmed, you would have no idea if you might not not only be bring in dogs clear of that issue,b ut might actually also bring in some more extreme traits prevalent in other countries.

The problem with PDE all along has been there is a view that problems can be solved simply, by out-crossing and crossbreeding.  All that will do is hide an issue for a time, and may actually bring in problems from the other gene pools not evident currently in the one your working with.

Also that anything could have changed in the physical make up of breeds in just 3 years, (policies and aims maybe) only a generation on, for some dogs (dogs in the ring will range from 6 months to 12 years or more).

Worst of all portraying pedigree breeders as deliberately causing problems, when in fact often it's a closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, issue. 

You only know there is an issue after the event when significant numbers arise with issues, and then you are stuck with trying to fix things which is never easy, throwing baby out with the bathwater may lead to further gene-pool bottlenecks.  Also using an out cross to solve a problem will mean possible overuse of that animal, so more issues of inbreeding on an individual for it;'s good traits and having to deal with it's negative ones.

Also re inbreeding levels.  Until computer programs most people would only have a vague idea of inbreeding levels, by counting the number of times a name appeared in a five generation or more pedigree (many won't have full pedigrees further back than that, especially with imports), working on a percentage of blood basis (the way I looked at pedigrees).

I am pretty sure that quite soon the KC will mandate that no new litters with COI' of above 25% (what you get with first degree matings of parent to offspring and full siblings) which are already banned.

The current mate select tools will need to be developed so that matings further ahead than just existing dogs can be calculated, in other words what if I put the potential puppies of X and Y to the potential puppies of C and D together.

I already work at least another generation ahead with outline breeding plans.  when planning a mating I look at potentially what will there be to mate the offspring to to best effect.

The pedigree dog is an easy target just because there are records for them so when something crops up the root can sometimes be found and some people like to witch hunt and cast blame.

The unregistered  farm collie pup may be very inbred for all anyone knows, no records so who knows, it may be purebred, or have a bit of something else Lab, JRT, Springer), and it is likely that any health issues encountered are put done to one of those things, when in fact the local romeo may have been passing on negative genes to many offspring.

Crossbreeds, accidental, deliberately bred unregistered  litters are likely to occur in a small area, the owners do not travel to mate their dogs, so the populations may be as inbred as any small breed.

My husbands family had working Russels, without any pedigree, when they had a litter from them they had no idea if the chosen dog from someone with a good worker was not in fact related closely to their bitch as no-one new more than who bred Mum or the dog in question.

LIKE!

Brainless,

As usual you have the experience and information which seems to be lacking in the veterinary and RSPCA population.   It's FAR more complicated than just adding in new blood.  At best this would only delay problems for one generation and add hidden problems to the mix.   In some ways we are fortunate that we have the different breeds and are able to pinpoint where a problem lies.  Without inbreeding and line breeding this would be impossible as there would be too many possibilities and variants - this is evident in humans, where great strides have been made in some diseases simply because the disease is confined to a small isolated population.

Regarding COIs, in Bedlingtons these are going to be higher than desired in many lines because Bedlington Breeders have for the last 30/40 years been trying to breed out the CT gene with the help of geneticists and the AHT, assisted by Biopsies and the development of various genetic tests.  Unfortunately in Bedlingtons the problem is not due to a single gene so the research and development goes on.  But what is apparent is that adding in new blood would not have helped, it would only have confused matters and delayed the discovery of which lines had the worst problems and what was causing the problem, although some cross breeding was done at first to discover exactly what was happening.  Now we have a situation where a very few dogs appear in almost all pedigrees at some point, owing to the fact that they were the only guaranteed CLEAR dogs and therefore were instrumental in reducing the incidence of CT in the breed as a whole, and their offspring were used extensively for the same reason after test matings.  If you just looked at the pedigrees without knowing why these dogs appear so often you'd just think it was bad breeding - in fact it was very enlightened breeding and was instrumental in reducing the incidence of deaths from CT drastically.  This continues today as pedigrees are studied and the dogs' health evaluated and gene tested/biopsied CLEAR/Unaffected dogs are used more often than carriers in an attempt to ensure that the incidence of CT is reduced even further.

Bedlingtons aren't the only breed to suffer from CT, but Bedlington Show Breeders are the only ones funding research and working towards eliminating this sneaky disease. 

People campaigning vociferously in the press on breeding matters should perhaps take the time to study genetics and breeding and study the facts behind the breeds and pedigrees before pronouncing on something that they are ignorant about.

But as they say   "Empty vessels make the most sound"

Brainless & Dill, great posts, thank you for well expressed, sensible views.

Anyone else wishing we could get Brainless or someone like her on these advisory councils? :-)

Oh God no, you must all know by now that I am a terrible waffler, and nothing would ever get done :)

its just all squashed into the face and airways etc,its the squashed flat face that causes the elongated soft palate.

I have a foxy faced breed and one of mine has a long epiglotis.

Bedlingtons aren't the only breed to suffer from CT, but Bedlington Show Breeders are the only ones funding research and working towards eliminating this sneaky disease.

We have the same with MD in jap spitz, it's a lethal disease that kills them before they reach 6 months and the only people interested in trying to find a test are the show breeders, nearly 10 years they've been funding research and are at last making progress, without these dedicated people no one would still be any the wiser.

Oh found this on Youtube by accident, shows Pugs running around the woods. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=HAsiHkSBpZ0&NR=1

Are you serious?????

Do you have sound on your computer?

Sounds like an asthma convention.

I have to agree, they look active and healthy but they certainly don't sound it to me.  I've taken my 8 large ones to the woods many times together, and did a walk with 12 large dogs summer before last; and at the park the other day, with my 4 there were around 15 dogs of all sizes, and it's never sounded like that.

I'm open-minded to what the breeders are doing to improve the breed but I cannot agree that those dogs are totally healthy, sorry.  I also feel for them on a personal level - if my sinuses close up (cold air, cold wind or when I'm laying down) people generally can't tell but it's an awful feeling as I feel like I'm suffocating.  Difference is mine is transient.

Are you serious?????

Do you have sound on your computer?

Sounds like an asthma convention.

:-D :-D Oh, that is so funny, whether meant to be or not, just made me laugh so much.

I'm no expert on pugs so will keep out of the debate, pugs love agility as well as the next dog and can run and have fun just like other breeds, but they do breathe heavily though no mistaking that. Whether it is a strain and uncomfortable I don't know........ not a vet, but yes I agree it does sound like an asthma convention very funny Olive1. (No disrespect to anyone with asthma)

Got to agree,not exactly the best example of healthy nice easy breathing pugs,its not just the noise and the breathing,its how you can actually hear the sound straining in the throat,and they were breathing like that after doing not alot

Well as I have a breed that like to make all sorts of vocalisations when playing madly I didn't take much notice, and I generally don't have sound up on my computer, as I find browsing better without.

It was the activity levels, and fun the dogs were having that I focused on, and that they didn't all seem to be fat.

Most of the Staffies I know make noises like that playing too.

The dogs in that video aren't vocalisating or doing staffy gruntings - they are simply breathing, and it should not be that noisy.

Also,the dogs in the video are not playing madly,the weather is cool,and yet they still make that sound when breathing,

Oh dear, lets have a go at the Pugs thread.   

Next week it'll be the  GSD after Crufts and some banana backed, weak pasterned exhibit is chosen.

>Oh dear, lets have a go at the Pugs thread. >Next week it'll be the  GSD after Crufts and some banana backed, weak pasterned exhibit is chosen.

Seems to come with the territory these days. Divide and rule I'm afraid.

Just making observations based on the video posted.

Short faced breeds are not my cup of tea (nor are short legged ones, heavy floppy eared etc), but thsoe dogs seem to be happy and enjoying their life, not prostrate and unable to.

Ditto Barbara, but Betsy my sister's Pug is such a character, she thinks she is as big as my friends Hovawart and shows as much determination!