We have a 10 1/2 month old choc lab. He is still mouthing and jumping up when he wants to play or just wants attention. We have had labs before but always black or golden and female, and never had this issue with them. Our new guy however is quite a different experience. When he was a young puppy he was very aggressive and definitely wanted to be boss. He would actually draw blood and I was always covered in bruises from his teeth and my clothes got torn and he would jump up, actually lunge at me and even as a little pup he could jump very high. Anyway.....he has improved a ton, it took me having to physically dominate him, wrestle him down and pin him until he submitted, which was very hard on me, and left me in tears many times because i had never had to be this way with an animal before.

He is now 95 lbs quite tall, still growing and very strong and energetic. He is not what some people call "thick" he is just stubborn and wants to win. He is actually very bright and learns other things very quickly. He will listen but does so grudgingly. For instance if I point to the floor and say down, he will lay down but with a lot of whining and moaning and will snap and snarl at my finger. lol but he will do it. And he learned that in a few minutes.

He usually doesnt jump up on me when I'm standing up anymore, he will jump up but makes a real effort not to actually touch me with his paws. He has in the past actually jumped up in the air and touched noses with me. That was an uncomfortable feeling. He doesnt seem to get that its not ok for him to climb on me or mouth my hands and arms. He nips my belly, thighs and bum or pushes me around with his nose when he wants my attention. Sometimes if I'm standing talking to someone and he wants attention or when I'm standing talking on the phone or stop for a minute to look at something on TV.  So now I have little bruises on those parts of my body as well. If he wants to play when I'm sitting on the sofa he will jump up on the sofa and get behind me and jump up onto my head with his front paws and body and start mouthing my head. Probably looks quite hillarious and makes me want to giggle because it just seems so odd, but its not funny because he's big and it does hurt my head even if he's just playing.  He jumps up on my husband when he's sitting in his recliner as well. We usually push him away and tell him very sternly "NO" "GET DOWN" "STAY DOWN" "BE NICE" "DONT BITE"  etc but he just seems to think we are playing. Eventually he will get it but it takes a lot. It will usually end with him sitting down looking puzzled at us or licking our hands as if to say sorry or he will lay down and moan and groan. But even though he does eventually listen its very hard to deal with because he's so big and rough and he keeps repeating the behaviour.

He's also very possessive about his toys. He will hoard them and protect them from us. If he doesnt want us to get the ball or stick or or chew toy or even all 3 at once, then we arent going to get them. He will hold them down with his chest, and wrap his paws and forearms around them and hold them with his teeth as well.

I take him for a walk in the woods every morning for an hour or better and my husband takes him for a 2 hour hike every afternoon after work, but he still has tons of energy and wants to be doing something all the time. We have acreage and he wanders around outside with us and chases a ball and fetches sticks and rolls around with a very large ball he has. We have never played tug of war or anything like that with him because it was apparent very early that he wanted to be the alpha. He's really a beautiful brilliant dog who just wants to have fun and doesnt realize he's hurting us. He lives to play and loves the sound of laughter, if he hears us laughing he comes running, tail wagging and starts the rough housing stuff right away so now its gotten so bad that we try not to laugh loudly if hes sleeping or resting, so we can enjoy the break. We love him dearly and want to do right by him so will appreciate any suggestions or advice.

We also live on an Island and commute by ferry so getting him to training classes is difficult as he wont get in a vehicle either since I accidently shut his tail in the car door.:(  Any help for us????   Also he is certified with the Canadian Kennel Club as a pure breed chocolate lab and we have the papers.....but he has brindleing on his chest, face, legs and belly. The breeder said this was a throw back from one of his grand parents who was a golden lab, but that he was still pure breed. I was worried that his aggression may suggest that he wasnt pure but have noticed and read other posts about aggression in chocolate labs. Has anyone heard of brindling in labs?

I've never done posting on forums before so dont know how long it takes to get a response but hopefully someone will respond. Please and thanks
Patti

just to ask, could you edit your post and put the text into paragraph please as i know some, me included find block text like this difficult to read :)

just to add,

Read  your post and have to say a 3 hour walk a day is far too long for a 10.5 month old dog especially a breed where hip dysplacia is a health issue

the general rule of thumb is 5 mins for every month of age

thanks for changing your post, much easier :)

I think you're misreading a lot of your dog's behaviour.

The way of thinking which approaches dog behaviour in terms of 'dominance' has largely been discredited now.  Your dog is not trying to dominate you or to 'be boss', as you put it, and it was not a good idea to wrestle and pin him to the ground.  At best this would have been ineffective (as you're seeing now) and at worst, it would have been traumatic for your dog (as it sounds like it was for you too).

When you point to the floor and he whines and snaps at your finger, my guess (from what you describe) is that he is trying to get you to play with him.  When he jumps up, again he is trying to play - and again when he nips you, too.

When you say that 'it takes a lot' and eventually he will stop but he is 'looking puzzled or licking our hands as if to say sorry', my heart goes out to this dog.  He doesn't understand that you don't like this behaviour, he just experiences being punished and is aware that you are feeling angry with him.  He is then trying to appease your anger - by licking you - to turn it off.  And when he does that, you think that he 'does understand' what he did wrong - well, he doesn't.

I feel very sorry that you have never played tug of war with him, since dogs don't try to be 'alpha' with humans - dog and humans are different species and dogs do not relate to us as other dogs.  (Many studies and much research has proved this.)  Tug of war is a way of bonding with your dog, and of stimulating him - something which your dog needs much of, and you don't do him any favours by denying him this one outlet.

He is trying to play, albeit too roughly and completely inappropriately.  He is not being angry with you, and this is not 'aggression'.

Please do have a read of the following link:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm#dominance    (Especially the first link 'Debunking Dominance' on that list.)

I would strongly recommend that you buy some decent books on dog training if attending a class is difficult.  I'd especially recommend 'Click for Joy' by Melissa C Alexander and 'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson. 

You don't mention whether he gets to interact with other dogs much, either?  Some of this frustrated play behaviour might be burnt off through interacting with other dogs, who would also give him feedback on his mouth and when he is hurting in play. 

Having loads of land and a long walk just isn't enough for many dogs:  WHat they crave is the right sort of interactions with people, not just physical exercise and interacting with the environment.

In short, I think he is very frustrated and under-stimulated and perhaps has some working blood in him and needs more of an outlet - more training, more working of him.  He is desperate to interact with you - as you can see with his continued efforts to get your attention - and if you could only channel this in the right way, you could have a fantastic dog.  But at the moment, there is a lot of misunderstanding between you and you need to radically re-think what you believe he is doing.  The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson would help you to understand him better.

I don't know a lot about labs in particular, and therefore can't say anything useful about the colour etc, but I am used to large, rough, dogs. So here are a couple of things: show-off, rowdy dogs love to be laughed at, so DON'T laugh at anything naughty he does however funny. Try to ignore him as far as is possible at certain times of the day, and "notice" him again when he is doing something you want him to.
Keep a length of cord with no loop on the end on his collar all the time - it should be quite thick and just long enough to touch the ground when he is standing. Use this when you want him to do anything i e get off something, rather than your hands.
There are loads of things I could say, but a face to face dog behaviourist would be able to help you better. I would also think about having him castrated. By the way, if you "mix" it with him physically to try to dominate him now, you might win at the present but another year or so it could be different. By doing this you are, in my opinion, presenting yourself as a rival rather than as pack leader.
Good Luck! 

Apart from the guarding he sounds a lot like most puppies I have had, in a breed that mentally does not mature until at least two years and not fully until 3 or 4 years old.

Poor lad just can't contain himself, will obey command but is instantly distracted and can't see the point in a lot of what he is asked to do.

I would hazard a guess that he needs much more positive feedback for when he gets it right, otherwise he really doesn't see any point in doing the things you want when what he wants to do is rewarding.

Its very easy with a boisterous full on character like this (dog or child) to nag at them for doing wrong, but hardly ever being generous with praise for the times it is due.

A very good resource for training and behaviour on-line is: http://www.dogstardaily.com/

Oh I would disagree with castrating him right in mid adolescence.  Yes hormones will be running rampant at up to 5 times the adult levels, but they will settle down after the process has finished.  Training and channelling his energies into positive behaviours is the cure.

Oh all my really naughty pups have been girls, so testosterone is not responsible for bad behaviour only male sexually motivated behaviour.

we dont walk him for 3 hours at a time, its an hour in the early morning and 2 in the late afternoon. If we dont walk him he's dancing around our feet

constantly because he wants to go. And even with the walks he's constantly going,  running around the yard etc. plus he swims in the ponds on the walk

and sometimes in the ocean. His behaviour is far worse if we dont walk him. Now I dont know what to do......:D

Physical excersise just maeks him fitter (though puts a strain on those young bones). 

He needs mental stimulation.

20 minutes mental work out is worth tons of physical excersise.

I cannot believe that there are still people believing in the dominance myth.  The perfectly normal puppy behaviour is being treated incorrectly.  You are doing everything that you can to turn this animal nasty.

He needs far less physical exercise and far more exercising of the grey matter.  But, before you make any more really bad mistakes, read up on positive reinforcement, and try Ian Dnbar's training methods.  After you have done so many things wrong, make sure that you take things very, very slowly.

I do feel your frustrations in dealing with your young dog, and must say I agree with pretty much everything which has been advised so far. I too had a really "full on" male Golden Retriever puppy a few years ago (he's 6 now). He was very much as you have described your young boy. I like to think it's just a personality thing with him, like people, some dogs are just like bulls in a china shop, full of the joys of life, a little like a child who is too excitable! What's so important is how you deal with these things, as to how the adult dog will turn out.

However difficult it may seem, too much exercise can cause untold long term damage to those developing limbs. He shouldn't really be chasing after balls or leaping off things until he's at least a year old either. Do you spend short periods of every day with training sessions? 3 x 10 minutes are far better than 1 x 30 mins initially, especially as his attention span is so poor (typical adolescent behaviour). Find some extra tasty treats and make him work for each piece.

One thing which my boy understood and acted on was if I folded my arms and looked away from him when he was trying to jump on me (whilst I was sitting down for instance). It started out as quite an eggagerated movement, one which became more subtle over time, and he eventually realised this was my way of saying "not now!". It really worked (just one little thing) but was quite an achievement!

We now have an 18 month old GR bitch here, who was a livewire (still is!), she would jump up at everyone, mouth, nip bottoms in excitement, grab my hand when I came home etc, who is sooo much calmer now.

I've never had to pin my dogs onto the floor, I don't really feel it achieves very much, what is so much more rewarding for both dog and owner, is when the owner is consistent, gives clear language to the dog which he/she can understand, and when the owner trains the dog using positive methods, this will make a tight bond between the two of you. Attention should be on your terms, but the dog still deserves some 1:1 attention and training, and most definitely, every dog needs to have some cuddle time when they're quiet and calm.

I should say, my lunatic Golden Retriever puppy grew into the most fantastic dog ever. He's so loyal to me, will do whatever I ask of him and loves every dog and person! He is still a funny thing, and loves young dogs and puppies, because I don't think he'll ever really grow up :). I can see him at age 10 (or as long as he can manage it) bouncing about inviting another dog to play! He is a perfect house dog... and CALM!

There is hope, and great that you've come on here to ask advice, your boy will benefit from some of the suggestions on here I'm sure.

Re the colour of your boy, I have seen pedigree Labs with the markings as you've mentioned. I've seen a black lab with point marking like a Doberman, and some mottled spots. the owner assured me she was of fantastic breeding. The only thing which makes me think maybe not in your case is the sheer size and weight of your boy. Did you meet his parents/mother? I'm wondering if Labs are bigger where you live, here in the UK the breed standard calls for a smaller dog.

Good luck with him, I feel sure you can get a handle on things & make life better for both of you.

I agree with rabid.

>Ayway.....he has improved a ton, it took me having to physically dominate him, wrestle him down and pin him until he submitted,

You didn't teach him who was boss, you taught him that the only way you know how to get him to do what you want is you having to resort to being physical.

If you want him to not jump up, then reward him for not jumping up if that means setting him up for it then do that. Eg. tell him to sit and reward the sit, ignore the jumping up (you can also slowly turn your back on him).

> he is just stubborn and wants to win

Nope, he's the sort of dog that will need a reason to do as you tell him, ie if you make obeying you REWARDING, he'll want to do it.

> We usually push him away and tell him very sternly "NO" "GET DOWN" "STAY DOWN" "BE NICE" "DONT BITE"  etc but he just seems to think we are playing.

Does he actually know what any of these commands mean? If not, then you may as well be shouting out "banana, fish tank, squid particles" (or anything really, as unlles you teach a dog what a word means, the words coming out of your mouth mean nothing).
If he DOES know these commands, then telling him in an overly harsh tone/using ovely harsh body-luanguage can cause him to get play-full - in an attempt to turn your 'aggression' (as he sees it) into play. Playfull behaviour can be used like a 'calming' signal'.
The same goes when you are telling him to lay down - he may be getting playfull because you are being to harsh.

Your boy can be turned into a well-behaved dog, he just needs some understanding and the right approach with training. My dog took ages to get out of play-biting, especially with my OH as he'd either just run and hide or get to bossy with the dog which made him even more playfull. He really is a brill dog now and despite being nearly 200lb, even my children can handle him a dream.

As somebody else said, mental stimulation will tire him so much better than physical stuff. Several short training sessions per day will help a lot. Keep sessions short to avoid the dog getting bored/frustrated. Always end on a positive note when he is still eager and make it rewarding.

Dont despair there is hope :)

Brindle can carry as a mismark in choc and black labs so his pedigree may not be in question. :-) So you can put that worry aside.

You're no novice to labs as you have had others and it does throw you sometimes when you have a completely different character, but as already said when you use the wrong training tools and actions it can do more harm than good.

You know what you really need to do is get your boy back in the car make it a good place with treats and nice things in there with a lot of praise, you need to get to those training classes to help you to start again (as long as they offer praise and reward training) it's hard when you are used to doing things one way to be told it needs to be done differently and far more effective if you can do it in a group so that you both can start from scratch, from the training classes you can build a good relationship and understand each others body language, it is the first thing you need to do. :-)

He is extremely boisterous and a rough player, as already suggested Ian Dunbar's The Bite Stops Here needs to be digested and adhered to immediately, he is still playing with you as he would with other dogs, he needs to be taught that humans do not play like this, he is not doing anything wrong in his eyes. :-)

I also agree with regards to his over walking, you really should not be walking him as an adult dog at this age, I'm sure he loves long walks but his bones may well suffer years from now, things have to be taken slowly until he is fully matured. I would not think of neutering him until he is over 3yrs old either.

Time outs with a No! or Stop! would make him understand his behaviour is unacceptable to you, dominating him is an aggressive training method which can backfire terribly.

Dogs are never, ever trying to be an Alpha over a human they know we are not dogs ask yourself what an alpha dog does? It leads a pack, how can a dog ever lead a human pack, an alpha is first and foremost after breeding rights (well it's not after that :-D) it secures territory, food (we supply both) so it is not after leadership for that, an alpha is either the brawn or intelligence behind a pack, well we beat a dog on both of those too, so how is it interested in becoming the Alpha leader over a human? Quite simply it isn't........... a dog is a simple instinctual animal, it does not wish to dominate you. :-)

It may not wish to do as you ask, but that is a different matter, it may get upset and in it's loudest body language say No! But that is why we teach commands and reward to get a dog to do as we ask it. Certainly invest in a whistle or clicker, I am never without a whistle, best tool you can ever have especially with a dog which can be stubborn, you don't have to worry that your voice is not coming across strong enough a whistle and clicker is understood, once commands are taught. :-)

Get his training right in the first few years and he will be a pleasure for the rest of his life, I really, really would invest in a few training classes just to get you going again and put right the wrong methods used so far.

Best of luck. :-)

Thank you for the links, I will check them out for sure.

I'd like to point out that I do realize he is just trying to get my attention and that he is frustrated and doesnt understand what we want him to do, that's what I meant when I said that he just doesnt seem to get it. I feel bad for him because we do seem to be saying "No" or " Down" etc a lot but we do make an effort to praise him and reward him when he is doing what we want and when he listens even if its short lived. We really praise him well when he's a good boy even if it's just a small improvement. 

Almost everyone I talked to in the beginning, including the Breeder, advised me to dominate him by pinning him. They said he was trying to dominate me and wanted to be the Alpha and I needed to show him he wasnt. I wish I hadnt listened because I think it was a frightening experience for both him and I. Like I said I had never experienced this with a dog before and didnt know how to react to him.

I dont understand if he doesn't relate to me like he would another dog, then why does he want to play with me like I'm another dog. One thing I keep saying to my husband is that the dog just doesnt seem to realize that we are people not dogs. And he doesnt seem to understand that he's biting hard. My old Black Lab was so gentle, she would never put her mouth around my arm or hands and if she did by accident she felt bad.

I was also instructed NOT to play tug-of-war or wrestle with him because this would encourage his rough play. We do however play fetch, and spend hours playing soccer with him. He's really quite good at it. We  dry him off after he goes swimming and that is another way we can play with him because he loves it and will actually go and get the flannel blanket we use to dry him with. Even this becomes too rough sometimes, and when it does we immediately stop the play and tell him "dont bite" and then we try again and if he gets rough again we quit.

Unfortunately he gets very little interaction with othe dogs. The one dog he was able to play with when he was younger, was an elderly dog and he sadly passed away a few months back. We did take him with us for a visit to my sons place (a two day drive from us) and he played very well with their 4 year old German Shepard. They hit it off right away and played and wrestled for hours. Other than that he hasnt had the opportunity.

He does have working blood in him, he comes from a line of hunting and show dogs. We just wanted a gentle loving family dog. We should have research it more and the Breeder should have been more upfront with us about what to expect from him, because we were very clear with her what we were looking for. I've since learned that Chocolate Labs especially from working lines are much more high energy etc than other labs.

Anyway, thank you again, I will look into the books you mentioned. And please know we love Farley and treat our dogs well and will continue to work with him. He has come a long way already and has lots of growing up to do yet. He is a beauty and a treasure to us.

I agree that he is having too much exercise. Exercising young dogs is like training a Marathon runner: the more they have, the more they can take & his joints are not ready for this amount until his growth plates have closed at about 18 months. Now, I know I am about to be shot down in flames here (but do it politely) I have run dog training classes for well over 30 years and I find many of the modern day chocolate Labs to be virtually untrainable ( and they can't all be owned by inexperienced idiots!) They are a very different mentality, in this area at least, to the blacks & yellows.  All young Labs are potentially exocet missiles, but the chocolates seem to be unguided!  Calm this fellow down by reducing his exercise and stimulating him mentally with calm tasks such as "find it" exercises in a very limited area.

I dont understand if he doesn't relate to me like he would another dog, then why does he want to play with me like I'm another dog.

He can only play the way that his species plays, he does not differentiate between a human, a toy, a plank of wood a horse or a cat, he will play in the same way with anything, he does not play like this because he thinks you are also a dog. :-) Even different breeds with different breed traits will play in slightly different ways, he learns that it hurts you and he will learn to stop, he learns what a command means and he will learn to leave or you simply distract him.

A cat will automatically scratch and dig it's claws in in play, first thing you do with that is distract it's claws and teeth elsewhere usually to one of the toys you have bought it, it will also jump, meow and hiss to get it's point across you very rarely hear people say that a cat is trying to dominate you and be the Alpha, somehow some people say it about dogs though. **rolleyes** You won't catch most humans trying to be cats, dogs, horses, rabbits or any other animal in trying to get it to do what we want, we are humans and animals have always done our bidding through training, scaring them can work but often backfires, far better to give a reward and a dog will be more than happy to do as we wish, with a wagging of the tail t'boot. :-)

> I dont understand if he doesn't relate to me like he would another dog, then why does he want to play with me like I'm another dog.

Dogs will behave instincively untill we teach them an alternative behaviour. So unless he knows how he should play with people/cats/other animals the only thing he can do is play instinctively = like a dog would play with another dog.

3 hours is still alot for a growing puppy,

My male was the same always on the go, if i let him he would be on 4 hours a day walk, he is currently on 2x 20 mins a day.
all his extra energy is exercised through mental stimulation and he has short 5 mins of training (sit, stay, stand, down) a couple of times a day. you could try a kong or other metal stim games.

Our breed is dogues, a guarding breed and our male when we first got him sounded like your dog first started, trying to guard us at all times also bite inhibitation took awhile with him but positive training method and mental stimulation helped him no end and now at 19 months hes virtually overcome all this and his 2x 20 mins walk is enough with traning sessions:)

They are a very different mentality, in this area at least, to the blacks & yellows.  All young Labs are potentially exocet missiles, but the chocolates seem to be unguided!  Calm this fellow down by reducing his exercise and stimulating him mentally with calm tasks such as "find it" exercises in a very limited area.

Well, I won't shoot you down G.Rets your right, I guess we can't make a sweeping statement as there will be many that are just like the blacks and yellows, but in my experience also I have noticed many chocolates are this way from pet homes at least, I've wondered which lines they are coming from as they are often built like bulldozers too and have much sharper characters.

But, even so they seem to settle once mature they just need good handling, I can understand why our OP has been knocked off guard with this chocolate one after the blacks and yellows some do seem to be of a different character, I guess it almost does feel as though she has a completely different breed, something to be aware of I guess. :-)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And no I'm not an inexperienced idiot. Chocolates a very different from the other color labs. I hear it from everyone I've talked to who has one. He's not hard to train because he's stupid or lacking brains, he's very bright, I just need to get him to want to listen. 

I regret resorting to pinning and trying to dominate my dog, I was very uncomfortable with it, it felt wrong, and it was just an all over bad experience for him and me. I always believed and also taught my children that you dont have to use physical force to teach a dog, but what I was used to and what normally worked for me just wasnt working and he was actually hurting me and ruining my clothes. He had actually jumped up and grabbed at my face, I dont think he meant to bite me but his tooth caught my chin and left quite a nasty gash and bruise. he had also left nasty gashes on my wrists and forearms because he always jumped up and grabbed what ever he could grab and as he went back down his teeth would rake across my skin ripping it. Farley as a puppy wasnt fun at all. ( this was before I try the pinning etc) I went looking for advice and was actually considering giving the dog back to the breeder because I was afraid of him. She adviced me to dominate him and also her trainer adviced me to do the same, even gave me directions on how to do it, as did a couple of other dog owners who had been taught this by their dog trainers. So against my better judgement I listened. I havent done it or even needed to in months now. But it makes me sad to think what it was probably like for him.

We are going to cut way back on the exercise, we have noticed that it just seemed to create more energy anyway. He's like the energizer bunny. I will work with him to make sure he is getting more mental stimulation and see how that goes.

Thanks

> But it makes me sad to think what it was probably like for him

Let go of the past, you did what you thought was right. You now know it wasn't the best idea but you can't keep beating yourself up about it. We've all made mistakes in the past and all done things we perhaps wish we never had done but we can't change the past - only the future :)

With all the exercise, it's possible that over tiredness is playing a part in his OTT playfulness too.

You're correct, it does seem like an entirely different breed. But like I said he has improved a great deal already. Still has a long way to go but he's young yet. Part of what makes it so hard is that our dogs have always been house pets and treated like a member of the family and he's soooo big and so when he's jumping up and roughing around its difficult because it hurts. He comes from a long line of Champion hunting and Show dogs. The hunting dogs are bred to be higher energy which makes it even more difficult. He is extremely bright, you can see it, so cutting back the exercise and working more on the mental stimulation sounds like a good idea.

You are also correct when you stated that they are built like bulldozers. He's huge compared to our other dogs. I am still amazed sometimes when I see him standing by my husbands chair or the coffee table of something and he's towering over it. My husband is 6' tall and Farley can easily jump as high as his head, no problem. (and no we dont encourage it he just does it). And he's 95 lbs and lean, has feet as big as a small horse and very sharp facial features.

He's huge but still likes to cuddle and so we do get to enjoy that side of him as well. Actually he sleeps at the foot of our bed but in the morning he comes up and curls up by my pillow and cuddles me like you would see puppies cuddle each other. He drapes his head across my neck and under my chin. Very sweet.

Y ou seem to have been dragged into the trap of focussing heavily on the things you DON'T want.

The key is to manage him in such a way as he is limited or prevented from doing the things you don't want (so that is possible to ignore them), and then focus very very heavily on what you do want.

The more you think this way the easier it gets, it means instead of thinking 'I don't want him to jump at me', you think 'I would like him to sit'.

Then you teach him those behaviours, because as already mentioned, shout out commands he hasn't actually learned will be useless, it will confuse him (and confusion is going to be partly driving his behaviour) and frustrate you both.

Since he is a smart dog and hes likely very food orientated, I would highly recommend clicker training to teach the new behaviours you want. Think about every situation where he is currently doing something you do  not like, and then think up a replacement behaviour that you WOULD like.

Then teach him those behaviours using the clicker, in as many locations as you can : this bit is crucial. Dogs are very context specific about learning, something they learned in the training hall, if only practiced in the training hall, is NOT 'learned' and therefore known and understood, in the yard, in the field, out on the street. So you need to train in as many places as possible, starting out with easy locations, high level of reward, low level of distraction, until your dog can generalise that these cues mean the same thing no matter where, no matter what is on offer, no matter what is going on.

Actually yes he does know what it means when I say Sit, Stay, Down, and No. He also knows Good Boy, Come, What did you do? ( usually means he ate a shoe or something) and he responds to that one by putting his head down on the floor looking shamed. He always responds to "Come" even when he doesnt want to. Which is awesome. He "Sit"s when he wants to ie when he wants peanuts, but not when he's got something he's not supposed to have and I'm tryng to get it from him. For instance he's horrible for getting into things and eating or chewing things he's not supposed to and one of his favorites is my husbands socks from the laundry basket. My husband just has to say "Drop It" in a stern voice and he does so instantly. If I say it, he runs around flipping the sock in the air playing with it, or brings it and drops it at my feet and when I bend to pick it up he grabs it and runs out of reach flipping it in the air etc. He listens to my husband far better than me and he seems to think everything is a game with me. He also loves to make me laugh so I have to be very careful not to laugh or even smile when he's being a clown because he is like one other reader said "a Show Off"or a naughty toddler.

Your comment about the overly harsh tone or body language is interesting because sometimes my husband will get quite loud or stern with him when he's trying to make him listen and Farley will act confused and try harder to get him to play, just like you said. Or will suddenly run around like a bullet doing laps around the house or yard, like a lunatic, then just as suddenly come and sit at my husbands feet like he didnt know what was expected of him but hoping he got it right. Poor guy.

I think the fact that he is no longer making me bleed is a huge improvement and from what most of the other posts have said, I need to excercise him less, give him more mental stimulation, give him love, praise him when he gets it right and give him time to mature.

> Think about every situation where he is currently doing something you do not like, and then think up a replacement behaviour that you WOULD like.

This is such good advice from theemx (all of it :).  With regard to the above point though it's worth making a quick diary and thinking through what usually happens every day and when - starting with your first interaction.  Try and plan in some time for a few mental exercises at every stage and think in advance about what you want to teach him, and how you are going to do that.  Pre thinking these exercises will make it much easier for you and therefore much clearer to him :).

A really good training book, and not too late for your adolescent is The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell - have a look at her website too.  This book is full of common sense advice with simple training exercises that are explained very well - some of it you'll read and lightbulbs will go off in your head.  I promise :)

Finally, are you already familiar with clicker training?  Karen Pryor is perhaps the best author/exponent to start with on this subject.  Good luck with your boy.  I suspect that if you can change your mindset, you'll change his behaviour.

Your dogs sound like what I'm used to. I miss my old girl very much. She was also everybody and every dogs friend. She actually had a best friend dog (a Rotty / Mastif cross ) they were best buddies and would get so excited and happy when they could see each other, even after we moved to another city and they could only visit once or twice a year they still were like little pups when they would meet again and would always lick each others faces and mouths for a good few minutes each time. The vet said it was a sign of affection like humans hugging and kissing hello. So cute. She had never been in a dog fight, actually I could walk her anywhere without a leash and no other dog ever became even a tiny bit agressive towards her or her them. She was such a calm gentle soul and always was. She played when she was young of course, I think labs are like pups forever, but she wasnt rough though. And our golden girl was pretty much the same, a little more agressive towards other dogs maybe but a gentle girl too. And my sons black lab is the same, only she is more the Alpha and when the dogs were all together it was obvious she was the leader, even with the Rotty/Mastif and Shepard. It was quite humorous actually, there would be 4 large dogs all in the yard playing and out would walk my sons dog and she would give a little snarl and they would stop playing and let her take what ever toys she wanted etc. And she was the smallest of them all too. It was really something to see.

I am glad I came here looking for help. I'm obviously going to cut back his exercise and my husband agrees as well. Also more mental exercise. He does get lots of cuddles, when I'm sitting on the sofa in the evening he will bring his chew toys and drape his large body across my lap and quietly chew his toy for a bit, then curl up with his head on my lap and cuddle till he falls asleep then he slowly stretches and sprawls out along the sofa (and I mean the whole sofa :D ) . He's a big lumox.

I did see his parents they were big but not as big as he is . Chocolates are bigger than the other labs though and I know there are some breeds of Golden and Blacks that are smaller breeds. But that said I think he is quite a large Lab. Extremely webbed feet as well and much sharper facial features than the other labs. Also dont shed as much which is nice. He's a gorgeous dog, really beautiful and intelligent so I am sure he will be amazing once we get this other stuff under control. My vet said there is a DNA test we could have done that would tell us exactly what breed or breeds he is made up of.

Thank you for your reply, it reminded me of my old girl and how rewarding mans best friend can be.

Very useful is to swap for things he shouldn't have, or distract him with a toy, so that he forgets the object and, prefers the toy. 

This way you don't get him training you into chasing him, which is fun, for him ;)

Yes, it is fun for him and he's very good at training me unfortunately. I made the mistake of giving him a treat to get something away from him that he shouldnt have and he very quickly learned that he could get treats that way and it became a new game. So have to always be one step ahead of him and its not always easy.

Another thing we need to take into consideration I think is that when our other dogs were puppies being trained etc, we had 4 young children or teenage boys at home to help with them. So those dogs had 6 people all on the same page, working with them. And 4 boys to play and wrestle with them so we may not have really noticed how much energy the dogs had, because it wasnt just us dealing with them.

Thank you

I will look into The Puppy Primer book and also the Clicker. I have never heard of this before today and several of the replies have mentioned it. I will check into it.  Also a diary sounds like a good idea. I have a couple of months to work with him before I return to work so will be able to give him lots of attention.

> Yes, it is fun for him and he's very good at training me unfortunately. I made the mistake of giving him a treat to get something away from him that he shouldnt have and he very quickly learned that he could get treats that way and it became a new game. So have to always be one step ahead of him and its not always easy.

Use it!  Labs are retrieving dogs - picking up and carrying things are in-built behaviours for them.  You already have the basis of a retrieve there - fine tune it, get him doing it on cue and make use of it.  Believe me, it's a lot easier than trying to stop it!

Two of mine - River and Raine - are big on carrying things, they've both got that from the lab side and Raine has it the strongest by far.  She was the same as yours - forever picking things up and stealing things, and when I gave her a treat for it once, only once, she immediately twigged and started doing it a whole lot more to get more treats!

So, I used it.  I started rewarding her for only bringing me certain things - she would pluck underwear from the radiators, and rubbish from the floor, so I would only reward her for bringing the underwear.  When she was doing that reliably, I put it on a general cue ('where is it?' meaning 'bring me something that isn't rubbish', generally speaking).  She's now being rewarded for only doing it on cue.

I'm also now working on specific cues - 'sock', 'knickers', 'towel' and so on, and she's recently started bringing me bigger items of clothing from the radiator too :-D  She will also now dash out the dog flap to fetch a specific toy from the garden on 'go find your cuz' (cuz being the toy).  Long-term the goal is service dog type stuff - putting clothes in the laundry basket and so on.  Sometimes I make it a bit more challenging - layer clothes on the radiator with socks (her favourite) at the bottom, then kncikers/towels/flannels, then bigger items.  On cue, she will go under the bigger stuff and carefully pick out the socks and work her way through everything!

Now, this is a dog who could walk daily for as much as your guy was getting and the same again - and not be tired at all (it's the malinois in her case, working lines malis have a LOT of drive/energy).  But by using her natural behaviour of fetching and carrying, I am able to tire her out nicely without knackering myself in the process :-P it keeps her calmer, and better behaved.

Clicker training generally also works for Linc, being a combo of two VERY high energy breeds he takes a lot of tiring out but hasn't got the hang of retrieving yet so we do general tricks.  I find heelwork to music tricks a very useful thing - just for fun but it gives you a range of tricks to choose from and aim towards.  And of course if it goes well, you could do it properly later on :-)

> Another thing we need to take into consideration I think is that when our other dogs were puppies being trained etc, we had 4 young children or teenage boys at home to help with them. So those dogs had 6 people all on the same page, working with them. And 4 boys to play and wrestle with them so we may not have really noticed how much energy the dogs had, because it wasnt just us dealing with them.

That is very relevant, I had the kids with the first dogs,a nd now I have the older dogs to keep pups in line and play with, so it's not so full on for me.

Don't know what I would do with the energiser bunny puppy if she didn't have the four others to play with, though she mainly plagues the life out of her mother and great grandmother.

>What did you do? ( usually means he ate a shoe or something) and he responds to that one by putting his head down on the floor looking shamed.

It's really important that you understand that he *does not know the meaning of 'what did you do?'* 

Your understanding of the situation (that he knows he has done something wrong and is feeling shame) is attributing human emotions and thought capacities to a dog.

For Farley:  He hears you say 'what did you do?' and he knows from experience that this signals your anger or a punishment - or something he doesn't like - because it usually precedes something he doesn't like.  Anticipating this, he then looks at the floor in appeasement, to turn off your anger.  None of this means that he knows what he did wrong, in the first place.

The reason why this is so important is:  If you believe that he knows when he is doing wrong, it is likely to make you feel even angrier with him (because he willfully went against what he knew was 'right').  This then further damages the bond between you and can lead to increased punishments being meted out by owners, because they believe their dog 'knows' when he's doing wrong (and so more punishment is justified than if he 'accidentally' made a mistake). 

Don't attribute human thought processes to dogs. 

Yes I am sure the look on Safi's face when she was caught red handed yesterday with the tea-towel she (and probably one or more of the others) had shredded into a lace was in no way 'shame', tyke!!!

Can never understand why we, the British, think not only do the rest of the World speaks English but that dogs do too and if it seems they do not understand the answer is to talk louder.

1/ Dogs don't speak English
2/ Dogs can't do as requested if they don't understand the request.
3/ Dogs are not disobedient from choice, they are not to blame for their misdemeanours,
4/ We are - if you want a well trained dog you have to train yourself to do the job properly.

Spot on Nova. :-)

I disagree with Brainless, my dog (dogs) DO understand when they are doing something or have done something they are not supposed to do. How do they learn if they dont understand the difference? And yes I understand that he doesnt literally understand the words "what did you do?" but he does understand that it means he shouldnt have eaten the shoe. The same way my husband can say to him "its in your supper dish" and he immediately goes to check his dish. He didnt understand any of what was said except "supper" and he associates that with being fed and he knows that happens in his dish and so since he was looking for a treat he went and checked his dish. Makes sense to me......it doesnt matter that he didnt understand each word we said, he got the message and it feels better to talk in sentences to him when we are'nt actually working on "training" he understood what we were meaning just as well as he does when we say "sit, stay, come, lay down" ect. 

And yes Nova, I do speak English, maybe not the same way you the British do, but I still speak English.

Many of the replies to my post have been helpful and showed caring and understanding without blaming and I appreciate those replies and have started working on changing MY behaviour and thinking regarding Farley's training. That doesnt mean I don't know anything about dogs and have been very successful with all my pets in the past as have my children with their pets.

I believe that you are underestimating your dogs and not giving them credit for what they are capable of understanding.

Also I have a very large British family in fact more British family than I do Canadian and they are not rude people so I wont blame your rudeness on being British. But I do find you insulting and rude and will therefore look for a Canadian site if I should need assistance in the future.

Thank you Barbara.

Sorry Barbara, I replied to a post a few minutes ago that I thought was from you and it was actually from Rabid. The post was regarding whether or not Farley understands what I'm saying to him. The thank you was for you though. :)

Thank you, this proves my point that they do understand what we are asking or saying, for instance when you say "where is it" it's understood what you are wanting. The same way when I say to Farley "where's your ball" or "go find your ball" he knows to go find his ball. I could just say "Ball" and he'd do the same thing, I just prefer to talk properly to him. I can say "where's Ron" and he will go find Ron or if he brings in one of his large toys I can say "take it outside" and he takes it outside. So he understands very well what I'm saying to him.

With my old girl I could give her something and say "take it to Ron" and unless it was edible :) she would take it to Ron. "river" was another one of her words. When we said "River" she would get excited because she thought she was going to the river. So we started spelling it out "R.I.V.E.R " and she figured that out and then we started calling it "the place" and she figured that out.

When I think about what he has actually picked up on his own without me really trying to teach it I can see that if I take the time I spent walking him and used it to work with him he would be quiet an amazing dog.  He already is, just more dog than we're used to that's all. But we will get through it and have a great bond in the end. He truly is wonderfully intelligent.

When I shared the posts with my husband he was concerned that if we stop his walks and give him treats all the time that he will get fat.
But I am going to use the treat method as you have and I think it's going to work beautifully.

Thank you

> Thank you, this proves my point that they do understand what we are asking or saying, for instance when you say "where is it" it's understood what you are wanting.

No, it doesn't - it proves that I have trained my dog to perform a specific response to a specific cue which in her case, is 'where is it?'  It's the same as training a dog to do a formal retrieve on the cue 'Hold it', or spinning on the spot to 'Twirly'.

That is NOT the same as saying 'what have you done?' and believing the dog knows he shouldn't have eaten the shoe because he looks guilty - dogs don't have a concept of guilt.  All he understands is that you are annoyed about *something* and that looking that way will calm you down - that is not the same as understanding that you are annoyed because he has eaten the shoe.  Dogs cannot think backwards and connect the present to the past in this way - unless you catch him in the act of eating the shoe, he will not twig that you are mad because of that, only that you are mad.

> When I shared the posts with my husband he was concerned that if we stop his walks and give him treats all the time that he will get fat.

This is easily avoidable.  For one thing, you aren't going to stop his walks completely - at 10 months old he can still have up to 50 minutes twice a day safely, which is plenty to keep him trim and fit.  But being a lab, yes, you need to be careful - you could probably use his food to train him (my lab will do anything for anything, no matter how boring it is so long as it's edible!), or failing that, reduce his meals to account for the treats.  You can also use low fat treats such as chicken.  All my dogs are reward trained - mostly with food, Remy in particular only with food because he couldn't give a toss about toys :-P - and none have gotten fat because of it.

Patti,

Nikita is right...

Yes, of course dogs can associate words with things - otherwise how would any of us train our dogs to respond to verbal commands?  And of course you can say 'Shoe' or 'Where's the shoe?' to get the dog to bring you the shoe.  (You could also say 'Pink elephants fly' and associate that with finding a shoe, if you like - it makes no difference to the dog what the words are, only what they are associated with.)

However, as Nikita points out, this is completely different to saying 'What have you done?' and believing the dog understands this.  In order for a dog to understand 'What have you done?', the dog would have to go through the following process:

1.  My owner is displeased with me.
2.  Therefore I have done something wrong.
3.  What might it be which (in my owner's mind) I have done wrong?  (NB This would not be wrong in my mind, since there is no such thing as right and wrong, only what I like to do and don't like to do.)
4.  Ah yes, it must have been the TV remote I chewed up.

This is simply far too complex a thought process for a dog.  The bit which the dog would struggle with most is 3) - what might it be, in my owner's mind, which I have done wrong?  For a dog to consider this would mean that the dog is capable of putting himself into the shoes of another person and thinking 'what is that person thinking?'  This is called 'theory of mind' and human toddlers don't even develop it until the age of 3.  Like Nikita says, dogs don't experience guilt - because it involves being aware of what someone else believes they should/shouldn't do.

Instead the dog is only aware that you are angry or displeased with him, and he instinctively responds to that with appeasement and apology - he is trying to turn off your anger or displeasure.  That doesn't mean he knows WHY you are angry/displeased in the first place.  You are mistaking his appeasement for a sign of guilt. 

Please do buy and read the Culture Clash so you can learn how to conceive of your dog's mind and how different it is to human minds.

Oh dear,I also have eight month old lab she is yellow and  hard work,I have always had blacks,however I personaly dont think colour makes any difference,its the type of lab,my other girls are from show lines and yes they have been like most pups on the go ect,the yellow lab is from working lines and she is so very different,she is nipping alot and not only mouthing my other lab but really digging her teeth into my other girls neck,I put her behind the baby gate when she does this,why do breeders sell this type of lab to a pet home,when they need to be worked,I love my labs but I also have been at my wits end with this young working type girl whom as most of you know are much more finer boned and yes they are hyper.{Bella is a recue girl previous ownerscoulnt cope with the poor girl}

Sheila

> why do breeders sell this type of lab to a pet home,when they need to be worked

Oh don't.  I worked briefly at a boarding kennels nearby, which has a permanent sign outside advertising lab pups.

These are from champion working dogs - adults which are basically insane most of the time, whenever they aren't being worked hard.  Yet the breeders just sell the pups to whoever turns up asking.  It's one of the reasons I couldn't stay - the owner/breeder was obsessed with breeding champions with no thought to the rest of the pups.  The boarding kennels were pretty dire too :-(

I am so glad that sombody realizes that these working labs, drakeshead lines ect are definatly a different ball game and are bloody hard work in a pet home,Bella is up at 3am in the morning and on the go all day long,she has me at home all day,nice walks,swimming ect,free running,games.but still hyper.Never again will i get this type of lab they are not for novices,thats why there are so many in rescue.

Sheila

I have two working girls at the moment and Puds is from Drakeshead lines and she is the sweetest biddable lump of a girl you could ever wish for. Betty however he rescue girl however is a different kettle of fish . She is a highly driven girl and it has taken alot of hard work and focusing her drive to become an excellent well behaved girl with excellent recall and relaxed around people and other dogs.

It is all about identifying what those drives are and focusing them on positive training methods to excercise both the body and the brain !

Moose the girl I lost before Christmas was very easy to train but she had a mad streak in her that I was never able to stop but minimised the impact of running up to people at full pelt and 'moosing' the as her way of saying hello ! Apart from that she was 100 % bomb proof and always showed impeccable manners when meeting other dogs and people.

I took a adolescent male chocolate boy in for a weekend as the owners were just not able to control him.

After a couple of days of intensive training I managed to turn him round to give some basic commands to control him then gave them a plan on the rest of the training they should follow. Once he knew what the boundaries were and what he was being asked to do his behaviour improved significantly and the owners were so much more relaxed.

Working labs are not necessarily a bad idea for pet homes - as long as the pet homes want a dog with that much energy and know what they're getting into.  As with most things, the responsibility is with both the breeders/sellers AND the purchasers to research and understand the dog and strain of dog they're planning on getting.

I agree and also all labs have their challenges in varying degrees whether working or show lines which is often mis understood by many new pet owners hence why we see so many labs during the Kevin the teenager stage come into rescue.

>Chocolates a very different from the other color labs

I have to say, I think that is a complete load of rubbish and an excuse!

I have 3 chocolate labs, all equally trainable

How can you blame the colour? Chocolate labs come from different colour labs too ;-)

I have seen and known blacks and yellows behave far worse than any of my chocolate labs

Maybe it's user error?

There are badly bred labs in all colours but the chocolates have taken a hit with the trend for the colour with people breeding for the colour rather than the temperament and health so I can see why they are seen as a challenge but people do like to make sweeping statements !! I have just been talking to a lady who took ownership of a black boy and in he words he wash untrainable but again she is a novice owner.

I don't think any dog is untrainable at heart - some of the really damaged ones may be too scarred to be helped but I would say those are very few, but the vast majority are trainable with the right approach.

Even my Saffi - who is without doubt the thickest dog I have ever had the pleasure to know :-P - has been able to learn an 'away' cue if I need some distance from her, for example for yesterday when I was felling my hedge (which is made of 20ft mini-trunks) I needed her to get away and stay away so it didn't fall on her, and she did on cue.  My view is that if a dog as dense as her can learn that, any dog can learn anything lol!

Don't forget that the OP is from Canada, and labs in North America as a whole tend to be very different to UK labs; they breed them to be much faster and 'harder' than we like them, even the UK working strains.

Remember the photos of Bill Clinton's chocolate lab Buddy? It was very different to the sort of labs, either working or show, that we're used to.