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Hi Alex, I have a friend whose dog has a very high hip score, somehwere in the 80s, this obviously has caused her major problems with the hips, she also has elbow displasia. This has been controlled by painkillers because a specialist says that the elbows are so bad an operation may not help and if they do the hips it will increase the pressure on the elbows and make them worse. The dog is now 5 years old and does have a quality of life, at times you wouldn't think she had a problem at all, she has very caring owners who have spent a small fortune on vet bills for her as insurance companies won't touch her. Ingrid

Alex have you had it confirmed by an x-ray and a visit to a specilist, that you dog has Osteochondrosis or something similar. Because intermitant lameness can be caused by Panosteitis which although it causes pain in the growing dog, and the dog would be best not used for breeding, the problem disappears by the time the dog is in it's mid teens.

IMO you should get a firm diagnoses (sp) from a specialist who will make their mind up with the help of good x- rays and may be blood tests.

Wishing you and yours all the best. Jackie

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Hi Alex

Have you seen this page on Pano?

I know some of us go on a bit about raw feeding on this site but I would strongly suggest that you read Ian Billinghurst's book "Grow Your Pup With Bones". How much of what he says is correct I can't say but it does seem to make a lot of sense.

Christine

Hi jackie,

I think solo may have this at the moment - is it the same thing as "growing pains"? He is lame intermittantly on his front right leg - though it seems to be in the shoulder... he has been to the vet, and is currently being treated by a canine chiropractor/homeopathist who says that it is a lack of minerals being dispersed to the joints...?

Does this sound familiar at all?

Think we should have called him hypo as in hypocondriac!!!

Alex (with the sbts!)

edit: he is 9 months, and has had this limping thing for about 3 weeks - where he has been on restricted ex (3 lead walks of 10 mins a day to do his stuff) and it actually got worse! probably cos he had time to realise that it hrt! doesn't seem to be any pain at all now though - still on lead walking but have increased the amount of time... any other ideas? [sorry to highjack too]

hi,
i am so sorry to hear of your pups problems, did your pups breeder have there stock hip scored before they bred from the bitch and have they helped, i feel so sad and sorry for people that purchase what they think are lovely bundles of fluff, with very little thought gone in to the breeding and the heart ache and expense to the new owners, i have seen at least four adds at the local pet store all german shepherds no papers, no sign of any health checks, but someone will still buy these pups and think they have had a good deal , "why should i pay £400 + for a g.s.d when i can get one for £200 or less". Only this week i had a call to microchip three dogs, one a g.s.d bitch, 18months old, she has just had a litter of pups, he knows nothing of the pedigrees, the old wives tale of letting the bitch have a litter before she is spayed rubbish,i did my best to stay calm, but i lost it and gave him a lecture on how irrasponsible he was and was nothing more than a back street breeder, he took it well,and will still chip his dogs as he said he would never breed again as he did not realise the money involved in vet fees, the worry of finding homes as he has not the facilities to keep any pups or to take the resposability of taking them back should things go wrong for the new owners. sorry rant over for now, all the best and hope he has a decent quality of life. regards tina

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hi alex,
have any of the other pups had the same problem and are the breeders aware of your pups problems, regards tina.

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At 9 months it is too soon to say what the dogs hips/elbows will score when he is say 18 months old. It could well be that it is the Pano. that is causing the trouble and when that has gone the dog will be fine. I have had 2 dogs with the condision, 1 it was mild but the second was in a lot of pain and I had to chose between strong pills or cage rest, I chose cage rest and he was ok by the time he was 13 months. His hip score at that stage was I think 9. As the 2 problems are not connected, it is too early to think that the lameness is caused by the dogs hips or elbows. It is also unfair to blame the breeder, the best they can do is to score the dam & sire and use only those who appear to be healthy, your breeder did this and until you have a clear picture on your dogs lameness you will not know if you have anything to blame anyone with anyway. There are a lot of far worse things that your dog could be suffering from and is not, may be because of carefull breeding. Do not rush into any surgery, relax and wait until your boy is at least 18 months before deciding that either he needs an op, or that you have been sold a cripple. Even specilasts are unable to score a dogs hips and unless the dog has one of the elbow condisions that means pieces of bone are detached, it would seem to early to say an op will be needed.
Jackie

Alex I can understand that your disappointed that your pup has problems, but it is unfair to think badly of the breeder. She has done her best in breeding from low scoring dogs (the elbow scheme is very new and tends to be most used by the breeds with a lot of problems in that area, like some Giant breeds Golden retrievers etc). The breeder is not God, we are dealing with a complex living organism which is changing by the day while it is a puppy, and many factors, nutrition, excersise and heredity will influence it's development. The breeder can only do their best with the tools available, and the rest is luck and good judgement.

I am assuming that the pup is under an Orthopaedic speicalist, but at 9 months he is still to young to be sure about the HD.

The Pano, or wandering lameness is an inflamatory condition of fast growing young dogs, and is sometimes called growing pains.

I was contacted recently by someone with a pup (not of my breeding) whose vet insisted the pup of 5 months had OCD and Arthritis. I advised a second Opinion (he was insured), and a diagnosis of Pano was reached. Now this particular puppy owner was taking his pup for far too much excersise, and allowing it to do inappropriate things like jumping off the Garden wall, running up stairs, and at his first show letting the pup run helter skelter across a slippery concrete floor to his wife at the other end of the hall (to show how good it's recall was).

The whole situation of blaming his breeding was most upsetting for his breeder (whose second litter this was), and was needless undermining of the owner breeder relationship.

I wouldn't necessarily blame the breeder, either. Though she does need to be aware of a possible problem.
My GSD did have hip and elbow dysplasia (confirmed by x-rays)...but I greatly believe that it wasn't helped by so called 'premium' foods, despite thinking you're providing the best and also too much excersize...another 'you think' you're doing the best! Had he lived, he would have needed op's on both elbows and 'maybe' one hip. He died of a M/I under anaesthetic at 22 months old :(

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I should rephrase myself, Alex...I wouldn't necessarily blame the breeder when I don't know all the facts!! There's no mistaking when you're talking to somebody, their rude and uncaring attitude, huh? :( It amazes me how 'some' breeders think that everything will be fine if they offer you another pup...at the expense of the other, no less!! You're right, if I was in your shoes, I'd most probably feel the same as you!

Sabre sounds as though he'll need a lot of love and care in the coming months to get him fit again, he also sounds as though he's with the right person :)...I'd give anything to be able to go back and do that for my boy, that chance and my boy were taken from me by someone 'higher up'!
I wish you both well.

Alex,

Tell me what would you have expected a responsible breeder to do when mating her dogs? They have done the health screening (I would imagine studied various breed lines) and mated the pair with the hope of producing sound pups.

I am sorry but in nature there is no guarantee, and if they refunded you the purchase price to make up for your puppy not being 'of merchantable quality' then they have discharged their obligation to you as a buyer. This is not an admission of guilt, as no breeder (not even the bad ones) set out to produce a puppy with problems. If it is a good breeder then they will be upset that they have produced a pup with a painful problem, if a bad breeder they have lost profit!

What would you have done if you had bred him, or been the owner of his sire???

They sold you a pup for which you paid money, whiuch they have given you back, and offered to take him back. It is now your choice whether you keep him, and hardly the breeders fault. Their obligation as a vendor have been satisfied.

Of course I have no idea whether they are a nice person,or how much or little they care for the individual dogs, but they have done right by you, many would not have given you the time of day after you had paid.

Totally agree with you B/less. All breeders can do is their best & people have to understand there can be no guarantee as to how pups will develop healthwise.
Christine, Spain.

Hi Alex

I have had two young GSD's with this condition - the first was a 10 month pup who was diagnosed with Panosteitis and OCD as he was limping from one front leg to the other constantly. On the advice of my vet I had him euthanised as he was very uncomfortable. At the time I had never heard of OCD although I was aware of Panosteitis. I did some subsequent research into OCD and was absolutely HORRIFIED to find out that it was controllable and that my pup was unlikely to become the total cripple that my vet had led me to believe. I learnt a very harsh lesson the day I had him put to sleep!
Some time later I aquired another 18 month old GSD who started to limp on his front leg. X rays showed OCD and a fragmented elbow joint. Incidentally, at the same veterinary practice who told me that this dog was the worst case they had ever seen :rolleyes: Putting him to sleep was not an option I was prepared to discuss with them and I rehomed him with a lovely family who are careful with his exercise. He leads a perfectly normal happy life and is not currently on any medication. They tell me he does not limp!
My friend has a dog with elbow displasia (not a GSD) and she has noticed a dramatic difference with a product called Synoquin (sp?)
Your xrays showing up arthritis at such a tender age is a worrying factor but the Panosteitis will be grown out of eventually so stick with it. Quality of life should improve with replacement joints but consider them at an age when he has stopped growing!
The skin problem sounds from what you describe like a summer allergy possibly pollens and grasses if it is getting better in the winter months. As your dog is insured ask your vet for testing from a dermatologist. They can ascertain exactly what your dog is reacting to and make up a vaccine to desensitise him. It takes a good few months to be effective. I had had it done to one of mine with total success!
I wish you luck
Lara x

Jiont problems need not be the end of the world. Onyx (Gordon Setter) could hardly walk 6 mnths ago. She developed OCD at 9mnth and HD at 12 mnths. Now at 18 mnths she only occassionally needs medication and has just started agility training. You can still tell she has problems and we have to be careful. To think we nearly had her put to sleep 6mnth ago!