£77K, what the??? I reckon that the stud fee would be a lot higher than £400 for a CH top winning dog, i'd hazzard a guess at the price of a pup, what does a Boxer cost these days? £800 or so?  There are people in all breeds who allow their dog to be overused, now I do wonder whether they declare this 'income' which it is to the IR? Maybe worth keep your eye on some of these people who are doing just this.

I couldn't think of anything worse than having a dog from a sire who is used all over the place, causes issues for tying up the lines, i've been through this with friends of mine over this fact. It goes to show that the owners of the sires have no morals or ethics as all these bitches can't possibly be a good match, but then they clearly aren't seeing beyond those £ signs... Yes limit the number of litters a dog can sire, whether be a limit each year or overall..Then maybe the owners will think a little bit more about the proposed matings.

> You may have a quick and effect cure, Gwen, but surely the dog should not have been in need of anything to help him breathe when sleeping?
> I'm sure there are comfortable healthy, example of the breed but perhaps you are seeing a self determining group by seeing those that sign up for activity pursuits.
> Try as I might, I do struggle to see how this type of anatomy cannot be sailing very close to causing problems in many, if the not the majority of instances.

I think you missed the point, the pups I mentioned had mild kennel cough/cold type illness.  Infections, not genetic problems.  The owner's original vets did not even consider the point the pups had an infection but immediately jumped to the "Obstructed airways" scenario and recomended extensive and expensive tests and operations.  All 3 got over the infections in a matter of days, and the  vick/olbas in a dish is something I would recomend to any dog owner who has a dog with something similar, I see no reason why we can't make them more comfy and help them get over a minor illness. 

the  vick/olbas in a dish is something I would recomend to any dog owner who has a dog with something similar, I see no reason why we can't make them more comfy and help them get over a minor illness. 

This is exactly what I did with our Bedlingtons (Nice long noses) when they caught Kennel Cough, put olbas oil on their collars so the gunk would become looser and easier to shift (same as I do for myself or the children)  It's about making them more comfortable ;)

Gwen,

I just wanted to say, I met the most wonderful Pug last week.  He was every bit as energetic as my Bedlingtons and astounded me by leaping off the sofa and over a 4ft wide coffee table playing chase with one of 'his' children.   The children adore him and he is such a sweetheart.   I was most impressed though with the way he easily keeps up with this energetic family.  I'd always thought of Pugs as very sedentary, fat etc.   Now I realise it's about how the owners treat the dog.   This family just treat him like a normal dog apart from being careful of him in warm/hot weather and ensuring he doesn't get overheated, walks only before sun-up or after sun-down when it is cooler and very careful not to let him do too much - because he would if allowed.  

to answer your question, goldmali, because who can say (in the case of the bloodhounds you were discussing) that the " unverified pedigree bloodhounds" that were accepted by the KC, WERE free of health problems? We are a breed that has no recomended health testing, and no one in the breed (apart from the few who pushed for it) can understand exactly what the advantage, to the breed, these registrations actually were!

Fully understand that point Sam.

Goldmali, glad you have seen pugs with new eyes, they are very active little dogs and can be extremely agile even around the house, most of min can easily jump up onto my knee when sitting on a dining type chair without any effort at all, and easily leap across a 3' gap between sofa and table without thinking.  They do need sensible treatment in hot weather, but so do lots of dogs.  They adore sunbathing even on the hottest day, but I excercise earlier or later in the day if very hot.  OF course, at shows and competitions you don't get the option of timing, but sensibel cool equipment and lots of cold water make sure the dogs stay comfortable.

HAve you looked at the photos on my post of the previous page to show just how active they can be?

Yes I looked at the photos Gwen and loved them. :) I don't think I've ever said anything against Pugs though? It's not my type of dog (funny in a way as in cats, I want them flat faced, but in dogs, I like the very opposite with long faces -whereas it is quite common for other cat breeders with my breeds to also have Pugs!) -but I can certainly appreciate the sort of comments you may be getting from vets etc as I know it from my cats! So many people just ASSUME the flat face makes them unwell but just like you, I have seen problems in LONGER faces -it is not the length of the face that makes an animal healthy or not. It's other factors. So I will always listen to people active IN a breed above anything else, as they are the ones LIVING with the animals. A pet owner with one unwell dog or cat isn't representative of an entire breed.

> A pet owner with one unwell dog or cat isn't representative of an entire breed.

It works the other way though too and it is very hard to understand how an anatomy such as this is not more likely to lead to problem than a more natural one.

It works the other way though too and it is very hard to understand how an anatomy such as this is not more likely to lead to problem than a more natural one.

Well having lived with large numbers of both flat faced cats and longer faced ones for decades (and having bred 66 litters of flat faced breeds) I can say hand on heart that the common ideas about Persians and Exotics are NOT true (take such a simple fact that Royal Canin felt they had to make a special food for them SHAPED in a different way as otherwise they'd not be able to eat!! How did they eat before this then??) so based on that I feel there are bound to be similarities with flat faced dog breeds.

> (take such a simple fact that Royal Canin felt they had to make a special food for them SHAPED in a different way as otherwise they'd not be able to eat!! How did they eat before this then??) so based on that I feel there are bound to be similarities with flat faced dog breeds.

Sorry, can't follow that logic at all.  Clearly the food thing is whacky that does not make the reality of this facial structure and any impact on the respiratory tract whacky.

I have a persian and although im not in to squishy faced dogs i love the persians and i can say hand on heart he has no issues breating what so ever BUT i do have to scoop his biccies up into a peak for him to be able to eat them without having to watch him nose his food around the table.

> I am all for an outcross mating when I can genetically test that the dogs Im mating dont have the late onset condition my breed is plagued with.

Oh absolutely, just outcrossing without checking the outcross is suitable would be pointless.

I have thought for a while that dobes would benefit from an outcross, perhaps not right now but in the near future to tackle the DCM problem as it's now affecting 60% of the breed.  That would be a heck of a dent in the gene pool, especially when many of the remaining 40% will have the other problems such as hypothyroidism, vWd, or wobbler's which might make them unsuitable for breeding.

So a sensible outcross would be of benefit I think - not sure what to, perhaps the german pinscher as I don't think DCM is a problem within that breed (not sure though so don't quote me on that!).  But it would rely on them being free of it, of course and that in itself would rely on DNA tests being available for all the genes, and only the genes for 85% of cases have been pinpointed so far.  But as and when they are identified, I think it would be of use.

But I am just thinking aloud, I dare say there are a lot of hiccups with that idea :-)

Sorry, can't follow that logic at all.  Clearly the food thing is whacky that does not make the reality of this facial structure and any impact on the respiratory tract whacky.

It shows that people who think such things as you do just sit down and imagine things -they don't have any experience for real. You might as well say people must not be able to breathe properly as we have flat faces too.

We do not have flat faces our noses protrude considerable, some of us more than others :)
I do not think people like me are imagining things :P (why can't we do the sticky out tongue anymore? :)) .  I don't think you have to be an engineer or plumber to understand that if you distort a tube you are going to create resistance to flow.  Nor are we imagining that the difficulties created are sufficient for airlines to have learnt, from experience, that this type of dog cannot safely be transported in hot weather.  Brachycephalic airway obstruction syndrome exists.  You might argue that vets are looking for fees but you can't argue that airlines want to turn custom away!
I don't think we need to take it to extremes and ban brachycephalic dogs as some seemed to suggest in that programme but I don't see see why we cannot urge modification.  Infact I cannot see any ethical arguement as to why they cannot be returned to no more exaggeration than we see in early depictions of these breeds.  They look like perfectly charming little dogs, why have we taken it so far?

Thanks for the back up Goldmali, I have an exotice cat too - he came by accident, it's not that I only like flatfaced animals.  He is as active as all of the moggies I have owned before.  12 years old now and prowls around, scales 9ft walls, runs and jumps and I have never seen him breathing hard let alone in difficulties.

Stooge, you have a preconceived idea that flat face must equal breathing problems, I live with a housefull of flatfaced dogs who have no breathing problems at all - I am not ignoring problems nor glossing over issues.  My pugs live normal, happy, healthy lives.  Yes, some of them are more active than others, but this is down to their natures, not lack of breathing capabilities, in American Cockers some were always livelier and others more laidback too.

Rather that just telling people that our pugs are happy and healthy we have chosen to go out and demonstrate it - nothing was ever further from my intentions than taking an interest in agility but it seems the ideal way to show the public what pugs can do, not just one or two very special, talented pugs, but most pugs.  How do you think that a dog with a compromised breathing system could complete an agility course at top speed, not just once but several time in an hour at our training sessions?  Of course there is different ability levels, as there would be in any breed, but we have had no "Pugility" pug have any sort of health difficulty either in training or at demos.

The position that breeding them with longer noses worries me because this is an assumption, not a fact.  AS I said before (and this is only a sample of 1) my only long nosed pug was also my only pug with a breathing problem.

My entire point is Stooge, any kind of issue is NOT for people NOT in a breed to interfere with -that's when you get problems due to misunderstandings and assumptions. And you know what assume does.

I have an exotice cat too

Oh what a coincidence! :) My oldest will be 19 in June!!

> any kind of issue is NOT for people NOT in a breed to interfere with

I don't think you have to own an animal at all to have a concern for their wellfare.

> I don't think you have to own an animal at all to have a concern for their wellfare.

Have you had time to have a look at the photos on my post of the previous page and see if you can find anything about any of these pugs which looks like they have compromised or inefficient breathing systems?  If I thought they had any breathing difficulties at all my concern for their welfare would not lead me to letting them compete at such a fast passed activity.

Gwen I am sure there are plenty of examples of pugs coping well with exercise but I think you have to look at the breed as a whole.

> it is very hard to understand how an anatomy such as this is not more likely to lead to problem than a more natural one.

but this can be said of most dog traits that are not of the wild canine template (prick ears, muzzle and skull of roughly equal length, body longer than tall, legs about half of wither height or more.

Dog with drop/floppy ears will be at higher risk of ear infections,   Dogs with flews/jowls will have more risk of lip fold dermatitis etc etc.  Long coated dogs hair will matt and be a reservoir for skin infection.

Dogs are a manmade (well manipulated), descended from the wolf.

> it is very hard to understand how an anatomy such as this is not more likely to lead to problem than a more natural one.

but this can be said of most dog traits that are not of the wild canine template (prick ears, muzzle and skull of roughly equal length, body longer than tall, legs about half of wither height or more.

Dog with drop/floppy ears will be at higher risk of ear infections,   Dogs with flews/jowls will have more risk of lip fold dermatitis etc etc.  Long coated dogs hair will matt and be a reservoir for skin infection.

Dogs are a manmade (well manipulated), descended from the wolf.

>> it is very hard to understand how an anatomy such as this is not more likely to lead to problem than a more natural one.
>Dog with drop/floppy ears will be at higher risk of ear infections,

Spaniels are notorious for frequent painful ear infections, to the extent where surgery can be needed to relieve the pain.

> Gwen I am sure there are plenty of examples of pugs coping well with exercise but I think you have to look at the breed as a whole.

But this is just what we are doing, Stooge.  IF not quite the breed as a whole then a lot of North East based pugs.  I am not focusing just on show pugs but at the fairly large numbers of pugs who attend the events we organise for them.  As we run things from weekly pugility lessons to Christmas parties and pug walks I don't believe that only the owners of livelier pugs attend.  In any breed, or indeed in any group of dogs including crossbreeds, you are going to find an element of unfit dogs or dogs with problems, but the angle I am coming from is that from personal observation and experience I have not met any pugs with breathing issues.  If the problem was as common as people appear to assume, surely in the very "mixed bag" who turn up at our events   1 or 2 would be puffing, panting and show difficulties?  I do not consider it to be the case that all pugs are healthy because mine are, and I firmly believe that we breeders need to take care to only breed from dogs with wide open nostrils, which in my view is the key to pugs who can breathe without problem.

You appear to be making assumptions based on appearance without personal experience, I am making comments based on observation and close up experience. 

I must say though gwen, i have lived through BAOS with my pug george,and i do feel you are getting the wrong end of the stick,a dog with baos does NOT have to be gasping etc at all times,my george did not ever gasp,first signs were fussy eating,then slobberry aftewr walkies and lying on floor with all 4 legs spread,this went on for ages, inever suspected anything serious was going on,he would run around like a fool,jump off the sofa etc etc,he was not sleepy,or fat,he weighed 19 lb back then,it was only when he lied down at my feet and startded screaming did i thingk,oh my god,my vets xrayed him,found his spine issues ec,then sent us to a specialist,his symptoms fitted BAOS,we opted for the surgery,at the time the breeder did not want me to have him operated on,i was told to keep quiet,create him for 6 months etc,but i trusted the specialist,when he was sedated this is when his larynx collapsed,my puggy was in larynx collapse stage 2 for ages and i didnot know it,then under sedation,down it went and they had to save his life,so what im saying is,not all baos is gasping from day one,baos can cause other issues,such as hernia,and stages of larynx collapse,if i did not listen to the specialist he would have been dead within a couple of months of larynx collpase,you need to be very carefull telling people to give alternative treatment,if i listened my dog would be dead.Like alot of issues in pugs,not all follow the symptom list,my other pug died age 4 from suspected pde,he did not have the build up with little fits,or head pressing etc.Gwen,what new tests are there,you know the x ray tells you if YOUR dog has hv,but it does not gaurentee the pups being free from it,pde is still there,entropion,patella problems etc etc,what new or improved tests are there,baos is a life sentance,george lungs are gettign weaker,he has mucus that needs removing by cupping physio provided by me daily and frequently,he cant have sedation as his larynx may go again,so any issue has to be treated as a potential killer,simple problems such as a tooth abcess will kill him as he cant have them out.
I have to admit i would never have another pug,you amy breed with all good intentions gwen,you may be honest and reliable,but you tell me ,why,why is the woman who i bought george from,told people she asked for him back,why did she tell people he was dead(all lies)why,when joe blogs have emailed her about pugs,their health issues etc etc,and asked her when she has had pups has she ever experianced health issues as a pug owner and she says NO,and this is all from the vice chairman of the pug dog club,you tell me ,if you cant get honesty and trust about the breed from them,who do ou get it from

Joanne, of course I can't answer any of the questions about your dog's breeder or his condition.  My point has been about observation of pugs I know.  I am not in denial that some pugs have health issues, but I know from personal experience that some vets diagnose BOAS simply because it is a pug.  I am very sorry that your pug did actually need the surgery, but again, in any breed or collection of cross breeds there will be dogs who are unwell, suffering fro inherited conditions etc.  The point I have been trying to make is that most show bred pugs are actually fit, healthy and bred responsibly, and can do a lot more than most people give them credit for.

I know xrays for HV is not a guarantee any offspring won't suffer from the problem, but till (and if) the exact mode of inheritance is known and then research into a DNA test is done and succeeds, xrays are the best we can do.   In the case of giving people "alternative treatments" it was perfectly obvious that these 3 dogs had a mild case of kennel cough/cold, this was ignored by the vet who simply focussed on "Pug, coughing, noisy breathing".  All 3 pugs were taken to my vet and my opinion was confirmed.

I have never said that a dog with Obstructed Airways will be gasping etc, all the time, but i can assure you it woudl be impossible for one to traing and run agility course at any speed .

gwen, whats this new test they have for pde, i remember hearing about it,what is it and how does it work.
I wish i could help george with olbas oil,but he is illergic to strong smells :(   i just feel so tired by it,i dont get a nights sleep Gwen,im up helping him cough it up,he aint distressed but i am distressed,he has had 2 abcesses in the last 6 months treated by antibiotics,his skin is terrible and needs twice weekly baths,he cant have steriod treatment for skin as it makes him hyper and risks damage to the spine,he has had 2 fits in 6 months as well,im tired,i feel sorry for him,he seems happy but its never ending,and im down heartened by the pug dog club,you are told to go through the kennel club and the pug dog club for honest and helpfull advice,but you dont get it,ok,maybe she does not want ot admitt it,but it would be better for her to say,yes,i did have a pug born who went on to have this that and the other,i have learnt from this etc etc etc,but to lie lie lie,thats wrong,

I am terribly sorry for you and George, and can only sympathise with the hard and tiring time you are having.  The PDE test is available to see if there is a liklehood of a dog developing it - it is not definitive and won't guarantee that pups from the dog will not get PDE.   I have not idea you your dogs breeder is, but have you asked the Secretary of the Pug Dog Club for help, oor for them to put you in contact with the Health subcommittee?

well at least its a start,pde is terrible,i supose rupert was lucky,he went quick,he did not have any symptoms then the gran mal seizure,and gone,he was only 4,my heart and love for pugs died that day,unlucky with george ? but rupert as well,he had 1 st in his class at crufts the year he died,as for george,i rather keep away fromt he pug dog club,i cant trust them,my faith is broken,and there is nothing anyone can do,he is 9 in may,he is amazing to be here,but at 3 am in the morning and im sitting in a steamed bathroom with him on his side whilst i cup my hands on his chest and he is coughing up mouthfulls of phlem,its hard,some will say let him go,but,he is happy,tail wagging,eating,drinking,walkies,he even still does hte pug run with the newfie,,so how do i coninplate pts

> Spaniels are notorious for frequent painful ear infections, to the extent where surgery can be needed to relieve the pain.

Indeed, and good open ear channels is always something I am looking for not to mention preferring a spaniel that is not too heavily coated.  Looking for the least exaggeration in effect :)

> I have not met any pugs with breathing issues. 

I am struggling with that, Gwen. :)  Pugs are a breed I have been interested in as a possible "retirement" breed, infact I remember asking you a while ago about healthier lines that I might look at.  Consequently I have often perused the Pug benches and cages and, I have to say, panting and gasping is something I have witnessed on more than one occasion.
As the lone Puggie person responding at the mo, I am concious I may be making you feel beleaguered and I appologise :). I have no doubt that you are breeding well balanced, healthy little pugs but I do not feel able to change my opinion that if the "goal posts" for the breed were shifted to less exaggeration those that are currently falling to a unhealthy side of the spread of these things would be, hopefully, shifted across with it.  If you follow my drift :)

Going back about 8 years I think I remember seeing 1 pug at Crufts who was breathing very hard even to get round the ring - it was from a kennel notorious for exagerated nose rolls.  Other than that, I haven't met any.   I do acknowledge that there are some pugs with problems, but I feel that the issue is being magnified out of all proportion.  The pugs we have coming to our walks and events are a very mixed bag as far as breeding goes, but I think taking a random sample of 50 dogs from one area and not one of them can't run, jump and play at top speed for an hour or two is not indicative of a bunch of dogs with trouble breathing.  Likewise our pugility pugs have not been handpicked in anyway, but are a bunch of pugs whose owners wanted to give something new a go new. 

Turning this thread back to the programme rather than the current focus on pugs I have noticed that there has been little if any media comment or notice about this 2nd edition of PDE, and I have not heard or read any comments at all about it from the general public, just from those deeply interested in dog.  Anyone any idea what the viewing figures were and how they compare with the last one?

There was an article about it in the Telegraph and it was "front page" on iPlayer the following day.  That is the only references I have seen.

Well, I am not a 'Pug' person but my sister has one who has climbed the Sidlaws (Hills) 3 times in 8 days recently for over 2 hours at a time.   I walk her every Thursday & Friday too for walks over an hour and today we followed an 'army' of Pugs with their two owners around Crombie country park, all interacting and running with each other.     Photos of Betsy on her Sidlaws hikes are up on my FB page and there are no signs of a lolling tongue or difficulty in keeping up with a Hovawart & Large Munsterlander!

A friend of mine used to work where there was a black rescue Pug who became very enamoured of her, to the extent of jumping out of a first storey window (onto a dung heap), and was the fastest and fittest little dog she knew.  I think a lot of the problem with panting pugs is that so many are overweight, (IMO a lot of them in the ring would benefit from weight loss, ditto bull terriers) ditto pet CKCS, Cockers, Westies etc.

Mind you my dogs will pant in the NEC, most dogs do not do well with excessive heat or recycled air.

back when beeb showed Crufts they had a bit on cani-cross and showed dogs doing a run round nec (I think a CDer took part) but there was someone with a pug you saw in the parade they had in the ring after.

I don't have any problem appreciating that many individuals are perfectly healthy and active, it is the breed as a whole that we should be looking at and whether their general present day conformation is such that those that fall on the less happy side of average are able to enjoy their lives to the full.
Youtube does not appear to have the same number of dogs from the other breeds you mention struggling to sleep upright, overweight or not.

Crikey, kids regularly fall asleep in high chairs, does that mean they have breathing problems?

> Crikey, kids regularly fall asleep in high chairs, does that mean they have breathing problems?

I don't think that is the same.  The child is generally supported in that position but if it wasn't and fell or moved itself into a prone position it would be perfectly happy to stay there without the need to sit upright again as we see these dogs doing in the videos.

you can not compare kids to pugs,as for the breed,i for one have been at a show where a pug has done the whole dropped dead thing,where the owner has to slap the dog on its side to startle it to wake up,as the throat has closed etc with the elongated soft palate,it still went into the ring and was placed,both my pugs have done this,not now george has had surgery,but both have done it,and it is common problem in the breed,the first time it happened to one of my pugs i honestly thought he had dropped dead,they go stiff and stop breathing,but still,flat faces dont cause problems,do they.
jo

A statement from Walkon Boxers (husband is a Vet), showign there are always two sides to any story, printed in Dog World this week:

Walker and Yvonne Miller of the Walkon Boxers:

'A full statement was supplied to Jemima Harrison before Monday's programme. Despite stating that it should be read out and printed in its complete form without any alteration this was not done and we feel that we were unfairly represented and consequently wish to clarify our position.
The health and wellbeing of our dogs is and always has been of paramount importance to us, and for our puppy owners whom we actively encourage to report any problems they may encounter. In addition we check with them on a periodic basis. Consequently the continual positive feedback we receive gives us no reason to believe that we have any ongoing health problems of any kind.
We have been breeding Boxers for more than 30 years and during this time have only had two suspected cases of JKD reported in our breeding and have no reason to believe they are of a hereditary nature.
It has been suggested that we know of more cases that we are not admitting to, which is completely and unequivocally untrue.
A recent check on all litters we have bred from 2006 to 2011 - a period which exceeded that on which Dr Cattanach's research is based - has not brought to light any further cases.
In the BBC4 documentary it was stated that if Gucci carries the faulty gene for JKD it is most likely he inherited it from a champion Walkon dog who appears in all but two of Dr Cattanach's cases. Dr Cattanach indicated to the health committee and ourselves that this dog had to be present on both sides of affected dogs' pedigrees as the gene in question was recessive.
Dr Cattanach was offered the complete and comprehensive breeding records of this dog and was told that blood and semen samples could be made available to the breed, an offer that was dismissed by him as being of no interest.
We were unable to give blood samples from affected dogs as we have had no cases of JKD ourselves and it should be pointed out that other breeders in addition to Walkon and Glenauld were contacted by Dr Cattanach and informed that they too were involved in the spread of JKD. These breeders were not mentioned in the programme and we feel we were unfairly singled out.
We remain concerned that the majority of the JKD cases appear to be based largely on pedigree analysis with little veterinary or pathological evidence having been produced to confirm them. It was stated in the programme that there was 'no definitive proof that Dr Cattanach was right' in his assumptions, and indeed a statement by the health committee on the breed council website would appear to agree with this.
When breeding, we apply a range of factors including genetic diversity, temperament and breed council and KC-approved health schemes to ensure we are breeding happy, health dogs. During 2011 and with the help of the KC's Mate Select tool we have reduced our average inbreeding coefficient of our litters by 39 per cent and are committed to reducing this further on an ongoing basis.
We stand completely behind efforts to understand the cause and prevalence of JKD and welcome the development of any tests for it. Our complete breeding records spanning over 30 years are available for inspection and we are happy to provide blood samples to the Boxer breed council health committee to further any research into JKD'.

Also Glenauld:

Janice Mair of the Glenauld Boxers:

'At the breed council meeting in May 2011 where Dr Bruce Cattanach reported his findings on juvenile kidney disease (JKD) he named several champion dogs purely on pedigree evidence who in his opinion had produced unconfirmed cases of JKD.
So I ask why my dog was singled out and named and blame by Dr Cattanach in the programme? Was it perhaps because over the years I have openly criticised his experiment of introducing Pembroke Welsh Corgi breeding into our breed for purely cosmetic reasons? Short tails (the bobtail gene) have nothing to do with the health of the breed.
The most important part of my written response to the programme was never mentioned, which was that since Dr Cattanach brought it to our attention - although he had no evidence to back this up -  that it was possible JKD was a hereditary condition, we have not used our champion dog, and that is since October 2010. He is 11 years old this week.
Sharon McCurdy who appeared on the programme omitted to mention that her bitch who died from kidney failure had been in whelp and had an anaesthetic for a caesarean section just days before she died.
The health and welfare of our dogs has always been of paramount importance and we take into account a range of factors when selecting dogs to breed from which include temperament, health test results as recommended by the breed council and the Kennel Club and genetic diversity which we now make it our policy to achieve with tools such as Mate Select. We are happy to divulge any breeding records and give bloods to the Boxer breed council health committee to help with any work to find a gene marker to test for JKD.'

> I don't think that is the same.  The child is generally supported in that position but if it wasn't and fell or moved itself into a prone position it would be perfectly happy to stay there without the need to sit upright again as we see these dogs doing in the videos.

Over the years I have owned or lived with dogs of many breeds - they have all, at some time or another, fallen asleep sitting up,  propped up or draped over something.  None have had breathing problems.

> don't have any problem appreciating that many individuals are perfectly healthy and active, it is the breed as a whole that we should be looking at and whether their general present day conformation is such that those that fall on the less happy side of average are able to enjoy their lives to the full.

You don't feel that the 50 or so pugs who join in our activities are a fairly representative sample of a random group of pugs?  These are 50 pugs of assorted ages whose only connection is living in the North East.  If problems were as extensive as some are trying to make it appear would it not be likely that a percentage of this bunch would be affected in some way?

We may have all seen dogs falling asleep in peculiar positions but the difference is when they have to rouse themselves and upright themselves before being able to rest again. 

> You don't feel that the 50 or so pugs who join in our activities are a fairly representative sample of a random group of pugs?

They are a self selecting group.  Someone with a pug of poor health is probably not going to be enrolling in much activity.

Their issues may very well not be as bad as portrayed in that programme but equally I not convinced by the claims that there are no problems particularly as I know what I have seen both in the flesh and Youtube :)
I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between.

> as the throat has closed etc with the elongated soft palate,it still went into the ring and was placed,both my pugs have done this,not now george has had surgery,

If the breathing problems are caused by an elongated soft palate closing up then this would indicate that the problem lies in the structures of the throat not the length of the nose. Breeding for a longer nose will not help if the soft palate is still also too long.

thats where you are wrong lilyowen,the pug still has the nose tissue of a normal dog,its just all squashed into the face and airways etc,its the squashed flat face that causes the elongated soft palate.

> the pug still has the nose tissue of a normal dog

Yes ....nature doesnt ditch anything when selective breeding shortens the face ( save for a few teeth perhaps which physically wont fit), it just shoves it all in a smaller space. Very short faced boxers can suffer from an elongated palate...which of course isnt 'elongated' at all, it just sits further back into the throat.
A perfect example of what Barbara ( Brainless ) said about the standard. The Uk standard calls for 1/3 muzzle and any shortening of this can cause problems.

> The Uk standard calls for 1/3 muzzle and any shortening of this can cause problems.

That is clearly very helpful to have a specific proportion laid out like that. 

also lilyowen,the flat face,pinched nostrals and squashed airways cause the breathing issues as well,all this puts a strain on the larynx,which can go into different stages of collpase,then there is the hernia caused by this as well,not to mention,infections in the skin rolls and dogs which have baos can go on to have copd as their lungs are so damaged,george is showing signs of this as he coughs up tons of mucus daily

> They are a self selecting group.  Someone with a pug of poor health is probably not going to be enrolling in much activity.
>
> Their issues may very well not be as bad as portrayed in that programme but equally I not convinced by the claims that there are no problems particularly as I know what I have seen both in the flesh and Youtube :-)
> I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between.

I have never claimed that there are no health issues in the breed, but that they are being magnified out of all proportion and vets are making unfounded assumptions of BOAS which could distort any figures.  (alos distress owners and force pugs into surgery which is not needed.)

I appreciate that the pug owners coming along to our Pugility class are to some extent self selecting (although we do have a wide variety of ages, shapes, weights in training)  however our get togethers and walks are not necessarily energetic, and certainly not advertised that way.  But when we get 50+ assorted pugs in one place a  lot of activity takes place.