i bought my 1st puppy from a reputable breeder with a small kennel who showed her dogs and only bred the occasional litter for herself, her dogs were health tested and puppies had breeding endorsements on their kc registration, i became good friends with the breeder and began showing my bitch once she was old enough and she did reasonably well in the ring. I then decided i would like to breed my bitch once she was had matured so i had her hips scored and eyes tested, her eyes were clear but her hips were 5 points above the breed mean score so i was surprised when her breeder said that was okay and she lifted the endorsements...because i was still concerned about this i contacted several other breeders i respected in the breed and they confirmed that they would allow the use of their studs to bitches whos hips had scored 8 points( they all had the same figure for the cut off) over the breed average providing she was a good example of the breed, i kept both the puppies and have no plans to breed again....was i wrong to breed her?

edited to add i found, with help and advice from others in the breed, a gorgeous stud dog with below average hip scores, the puppies are grown now and have been successful in the ring.

To me you have to look at the whole dog, not just the hips, eye etc.  Health testing is of course important but just part of the big picture. 
If she has proved herself in the ring and is typical of her breed, then I wouldn't consider it unethical to breed on from her. :)

No one should throw the baby out with the bath water, hips are only one item and if you know the bitch is a little higher than you would wish you make sure the the stud is not only low scoring but that his predecessors are as well. You did that, so no you are not IMO unethical. You will continue to monitor the pups and hopefully some will be scored so you will know what you have achieved.

I was going to say almost word for word what WestCoast just said. :) My last litter was from a bitch bang on the breed average to a dog 5 points above it.

In this article, Malcolm Willis says "you must not breed only by the numbers. A good breeder goes about the job with a set aim of trying to produce functional dogs that approximate to the ideal. I see breeders who cannot see beyond a head or a light eye or a good set of hips. Such breeders are doomed to failure because they do not look at the whole dog."

If the dog is a good example of the breed and ticks all the other boxes the hip score okay above average but many vets dont send in scores they believe are way over average so its only a rough guide. If that made as much sense on here as it did in my head. I would breed a bitch who was 5 points above breed average as long as she ticked all other boxes.

Malcolm Willis that's the man who said to me when I was disappointed (no distraught!) about some eye results that should have been good, "Val there is more to a dog than a pair of eyes.  Yours have got exceptional temperaments, good conformation and great breed type.  Just keep trying to sort out the eyes" :)

ive just had a litter of 9 pups with my girl and she is 3 over breed with the most amazing temp dad to pups is 00 hips with a very long line of low scores...he dont like the show ring at all but has been shown and did good, mum to pups has done great,....so many other factors to look at i know of a few bitches in my breed that have been mated all A1 health tests but so agressive!! :( :( 
xxxx

I echo what everyone else has said, it can so easily go the other way.  Both parents having REALLY low hip scores and the pups coming back with high ones.   

I have seen people who 'breed for hips' and the conformation of some of their dogs leaves a lot to be desired, they certainly wouldn't be good enough specimens to be bred from in my book but suddenly a low hip score is the green light to breed!

Without knowing what the breed is and what is meant by

>she did reasonably well in the ring

it is difficult to say.

I think the most important thing is the quality of the dog - either its abilities or appearance (or both) - if either of those are above average or would lend something to the breed then for sure, breeding a dog with a slightly above average hip score may be no bad thing for the breed.  But if your dog has unremarkable abilities and many other dogs have achieved similarly in the breed, either in ability or appearance, then it isn't really contributing much to breed that dog.

With dog breeding you cant just live in the here and now. Thinking about previous generations and future ones are just as important.

I mated my ZERO heart bitch (Boxer) to a zero dog and got three grade 3 pups. On Bruce Cattanachs advice I mated the one I kept to a zero and all tested progeny were zeros, as have all in that line.

Breeding ONLY by numbers is blinkered and fails to factor OUT anomalies and IN other the excellent qualities within a gene pool.

thank you for taking the time to reply everyone, my decisions to breed were very much led by those who were far more knowledgable than myself and it seems their views were shared by the majority of people who have replied on this thread. In response to Rabid my bitch was only lightly campaigned because she wasnt particularly keen on the show scene, that said she often got placed highly in her classes at ch sh level, plus i sought many opinions on her quality from people within the breed, her offspring have done even better in the ring than she has under both all rounders and breed specialists, im very pleased with them they are just the type i love but i wont be breeding them even if hips scores are 0/0, breedings just not for me im afraid lol

thanks again for your opinions.

My only addition to the views expressed it that the score should fall within functional normality.

This would apply more to breeds where the breed mean is already quite high.

I find it useful to use the OFA comparison chart http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html of various hip schemes for perspective.  This shows the normal grades (Excellent, Good and Fair) as being up to a score in UK of 18, and 'Borderline' as being up to 25. 

So I would only go that far with hips, in my breed the mean vacillates between 13 and 14.

Over this dogs are in the dysplastic ranges of mild (26 - 35), moderate (36 - 50) or severe (51 - 106).

The thing is, how many dogs in the breed are scored? and how many are x-rayed and then not submitted because they are so bad the vet doesn't believe a good score will come back? It happens in all breeds, so the breed average is only an average on the dogs that have gone through the health scheme. A few points above the breed average is ok, but a lot of points above the breed average isn't.

i agree 100% with you lindylou!
xxxx

Depends on the breed, in my breed all breeding stock is scored, which is about 25% of all KC registered puppies born, so the statistics are very reliable for our breed.

In breeds where the number scored is a lcw percetnage of total registraions less so.

Vets who advise not submitting plates are acting very unethically, and also are often way out, unless an othopaedic specialist.

I have had several long conversations with Jeff Sampson on this subject. There are many aspects to take into account. They now say that the inherited part of hips make up around 30% of the score. The rest is environment and feeding. It also depends on how numerous your breed is and the number of dogs that have been scored and how bad the hips were.

If like labs there are thousands of them, with a lot scored that are below the breed average then you may want to seriously think about not breeding. However if it is a smaller numerical breed then you may want to consider it. You also need to look at the total quality of your bitch and work out what she has that will benefit the breed. If this is a top winning bitch in the breed then you this would be worth taking the gamble. You are talking about only 5 points and unless the breed average is high then you should be fine.

Jeff Sampson says that the best rule of thumb is that totalling score of the dam and sire should not be higher than twice the breed average, so if your dog is 5 points above it, then you can look for a dog that is 5 or more points below the breed average. What you dont want to be doing is mating an above breed average dog to an unscored or another above average dog. Sadly this happens a lot in many breeds.

I think you have to consider hip scoring itself and the breed average which is of course only a measure of those actually submitted to the BVA for scoring. I have been around labrador breeders for long time and can say from experience that when advised by a vet that the dog may not be below the breed average, most do not send the results of the X-rays to the BVA for consideration. Hence in my own opinion the recorded average for the breed cannot be relied upon to represent the whole breed. So take from that what you may. One final note, I know of puppies that have had extremely high hip scores even when bred from parents with very low hip scores and vice versa. I also know of dogs with hi hips that have lived completely normal lives and long lives, so in the end it is up to you to make an informed decision whilst weighing up the evidence available.