Hi all

We have a puppy border terrier called Henry (3.5 months) and lately he just crys for a very long time in his crate. He didn't use to do this (we've had him for a month and have crated him regularly to sleep since we got him). We stuff a kong with frozen salmon moose etc and he goes in voluntarily but once he's been in there for a couple of minutes he just starts crying. It usually lasts for about 20 mins or longer.

This is a huge problem for us as we own a cycling tour company and we need to have sorted this before the summer season as our guests won't be happy!

We read in Ian Dunbar's book that going and sitting with him for 4-5 mins and soothing him might help but it actually makes it far worse!

Any comments welcome!

Hi,
Its awful to hear your puppy crying ..it can be frustrating and upsetting..

My dogs all love the crates... Firstly make sure the crate is in a good position not in a draught or secluded position , cover crate with a blanket or similar so that it covers all sides leaving the front open adult dogs are not as bothered but puppies tend to like it to be den like, put in some nice vet bedding and a water bowl , you could also add a unwashed piece of clothing that belongs to yourself when you are off out or to bed as a comforter .
I have always encouraged them into the crate scattering a few small pieces of dog food around for them to hunt out playing with them around the crate.. leaving the door open so they can go in and out while you are present also a kong or nylabone to chew .
I would play with pup and toilet... then during the day I would pop pup in the crate while I am in the vicinity washing dished and tidying up so pup can see I am still around  then occasionally open the front so they can come and go ..make it a good fun place to be. Then popping him back while I nip to the bathroom etc:
If you tend to pick up pup and put him in the crate then walk off he is going to cry for your attention.

tiny steps is the way to go.

What? Mr Dunbar says sitting and soothing? Really? Are you sure? Yikes, that's a surprise. With my breed they'd think, wowee, got human trained!! So definitely no soothing, just waiting for quiet before letting out crate.

Personally, I'd go right back to basics. Into crate for every meal, reinforcing crate as a good place to be, plus treats, which you say you're doing.

Out of interest, how long are you expecting pup to be in the crate? Is there anyone around the crate, ie is pup in one place, humans in another? Can you honestly say that, bearing in mind you run a business, that you are not expecting a tad too much from your pup, that you say you've only had for 1 month? He will probably be teething around now, that might be upsetting him, all sorts of possibilities.

Have you tried a crate/puppy pen combination? Something that Mr Dunbar recommends. I've found that works - so long as puppy pen high enough for pup not to climb out of - my breed climb out of at 7 weeks :-D

If you pardon the pun I expect his 'borders' have moved as he's got a bit older and a bit more trustworthy around the house.  He's probably now more aware of what he might be missing when he's put in his crate.  Do you only put him in there at night?

The trick with crate training, I've found, is to give them time in there little and often and only ever ask them to go in the crate when their needs have been met and they are ready for a sleep.  If you put a wide awake pup in there then you are asking for trouble.  Ironically, I know the popular advice is to give them an activity like a filled kong etc but I've never really found that to completely reliable.  In some ways it's merely a distraction and teaches them that time in the crate will be fun.  I have a gun dog that would fall asleep mid chew but my terrier type mongrel is stimulated by chewing - it activates his terrier genes and wakes him up!!

Mine aren't ever contained in a crate but they sleep in one.  It's a small distinction but an important one as I want the crate to mean bedtime and sleeping rather than exclusion and barriers.  As pups I put them to bed for a short time morning and afternoon as well as at night.  Always after a schedule that includes eating peeing, playing and training.  I'm also home every day so I wanted mine to learn that 'own time' is normal.  If any of mine were fighting sleep or struggling to settle it was sometimes because I'd let them get a bit over tired, what I'd do then is to move into ever decreasing sized rooms til i was in the utility room with them and being boring, loading the dishwasher, looking out of the window, tidying cupboards etc.  As soon as they twigged this was all that was going even my most stubborn puppy would give up and wander into his crate with a loud sigh and a heavy flump!!

I think our goal is that, given we're going to be in France during the summer, we want him to feel that his crate is "his place" and somewhere that, when things get too loud or a bit too much for him he can go and sit in his crate and chill out. We also want him to feel comfortable in there so that, though I doubt there will be any, if there are any guests that are scared of dogs he can go in there while they're eating around the table etc.

We always always make sure that he's been to the toilet before he goes in there and has eaten etc. I think, maybe wrongly, we assume that after say two hours of training and playing that as a puppy he should be very tired but that's probably not so much the case as he's older and that's something that probably we rather than he need to adapt. When we first got him, he'd sleep every hour as he was so young!

Well I think I agree with the kong idea, we thought that it would tire him out and that he would chew himself to sleep but I'm not sure that it does. I hadn't really thought about the terrier aspect and that it might actually wake him up.

I've tried things like when he's asleep on me, putting him in his crate so that when he wakes up (with the crate door open) he'll feel like he can just pop in there for a nap and not trapped or enclosed in there. We've limited him to the downstairs part of the house and he's not allowed upstairs which doesn't really bother him but the puppy pen (which I know Dunbar recommends) was never something I'd be able to do. I love him being around too much to leave him in a pen in another room though I know this technique works well!

He comes and sits with me in the kitchen while I'm cooking and just sits behind me watching and he gets very tired just doing that! It's our first time being a dog owner so we're probably making mistakes along the way but I like to think we're being as dilligent as we can! I'd never shout at him, I'm of the opinion that if he does something wrong, it's our fault and not his!

Just a little thing, and you may already be doing this: Do you put a bed (ie a plastic bed) inside the crate to give him an extra secure feeling? It also helps keep the bedding in one place in a large crate.

We bought a "ruff and tuff" bed that's in there with him http://www.petsathome.com/shop/square-dog-bed-by-ruff-and-tuff-38621

Are you taking Henry to training classes?  A good trainer is often a handy resource for issues outside of the class too and may be able to help you teach Henry additional commands.  A really useful one, particularly whilst you are cooking etc, is to teach Henry to go on his bed/crate.  This stops him from being under your feet, and a danger, whilst you are rushing about or carrying hot food but it also gives him an idea of when he isn't needed!

Mine have learnt to stay very quiet and still if they intend to be in the kitchen during cooking, otherwise they get ushered to the doorway and have to watch from there.  It's a useful lesson for them to learn; they are welcome to watch but this isn't 'their' time and they need to learn to settle quietly.  For a persistent dog then a baby gate is a great idea.  It's also something you'll probably be able to use in France to give your guests some space.

This is also the time when you need to be firm in your resolve, if you want him to use his crate then you must make sure it's a regular part of his routine and keep popping him in for short sessions.  You're right to pop him in his crate whilst he's sleeping.  I used to put my pup in his crate every time I loaded or unloaded the dishwasher, it saved me tripping over him but it was also a quick simple time to give a short training session there.  He liked to watch so it never seemed like a chore, or a worry and he was in and out again pretty quickly.  Even now (he's 18 months old) he still flops in his crate to watch me do chores in the utility room!! 

When they're little it really does seem as if they are going in and out of the crate a lot but don't worry, it doesn't last forever but now is the time for Henry to learn what you want, and there are times when he is just safer being contained.

>he just starts crying. It usually lasts for about 20 mins or longer.

Why would you leave a pup crying for that long?  I don't understand why anyone would ignore a dog for that long.  If I'm honest, I do think that your expectations are unrealistic for a dog so young. 

All the advice that we've read says to ignore the dog when crying (confirmed by Henry's vet) as if we go to him every time he crys he learns to cry to make us come to him. We always make sure that he's been fed, gone to the toilet and had water before crating. As I stated initially, he has been completely fine in his crate since we got him but it's only been the last few days that he's been yelping when going in there.

Having put into practice dogs a babe's helpful post and not using his kong he settled down fine last night and this morning and hasn't cried once.

All the puppy books that we've read say never to go to the puppy when he's crying and that's certainly the advice I've had from many of my friends that are dog owners. I don't think that our expectations are unrealistic, we've been training him for 4 weeks and perceived wisdom suggested that him learning to settle down within this time period is entirely normal.

> All the advice that we've read says to ignore the dog when crying (confirmed by Henry's vet) as if we go to him every time he crys he learns to cry to make us come to him.

With all due respect this a very young puppy who is getting upset at being crated for 2hrs+. It's too much for the little mite at the moment. I would be horrified if a puppy I had bred was being treated like this.

You wouldn't leave a baby crying for 20 minutes non stop.  I'm sorry to say that we all have different perceptions on what is too long, and I perceive 20 minutes to be far too long to leave a puppy in distress.

I don't think that having a dog for 4 weeks means he should be perfectly trained and settled.  As the forum is an exchange of information you are bound to find people with differing views.  Mine differs greatly to yours.  I am not a first time dog owner, having owned dozens of dogs from Border Collies to Toy Poodles. 

I have never left a puppy to cry for 20 minutes, and I never would.  So, we agree to differ, yes?  :-)

> All the advice that we've read says to ignore the dog when crying (confirmed by Henry's vet) as if we go to him every time he crys he learns to cry to make us come to him.

This has a yes and no answer! Ideally you don't want to let him out immediately if he starts yelling as soon as he goes in his crate BUT he does need to be able to tell you (if you're not in the room) that he has woken up and "uh oh I need a pee please"!

If he's previously been pretty settled then he might just be checking the boundaries a bit.  I'd suggest the following:  Do not leave him until he is asleep, even if it means hanging around for a bit.  If you are in the house open his crate door when he is asleep so that he can come and find you when he wakes, this means he doesn't have to shout to get your attention.  If you are busy elsewhere or need to keep his crate shut return immediately you hear him shout but ask for a sit before opening his crate door and taking him straight outside.  This one has the benefit of shushing him as well so that he is quiet and controlled when you let him out and you really only need a second or two of silence before releasing him.  You'll probably find if you talk to him as soon as you get in the room, and open the back door etc before turning to him, he's probably stopped yelling anyway :)

The reason that advice about 'not returning when crying' is contradictory is that you shouldn't ignore him when he needs to tell you something (and it can ramp up to real distress very quickly) BUT you don't want to respond immediately if you think it's just a token protest before sleeping.  If you're not sure which is which, let him out for a pee then put him back in his crate.  Once again, stay in the room til he settles. Once he realises that you are not going anywhere, and he isn't missing anything, then he'll probably give in and sleep quite easily if you've got your timings right.  If he's just too awake take him out for a play or a training a session and try again later.  Patience and perseverance will win the day

It's worth mentioning that your expectations might not be unrealistic but terriers are a bit different to other dogs and he certainly won't have read the text books AND what's more - even if he had - he'd probably be contrary just because.  Ah the joy of the Border Terrorist :)

PS I'm glad the tip about the Kong was useful

useful post dogs a babe for next pup I will take some of your tips:) I wish I had done so with Brooke she has been a real devil wit her crate. Fine now but no crate and a year old

Thanks for the useful advice dogs a babe. We've not put his kong in his crate for 3 nights now and he goes straight to sleep!! Re expectations, we never expected him to be fully trained at this stage obviously, we were just concerned as he had previously been fine and all of a sudden started crying in his cate.

Not sure where 2hs+ came from though roscoe? I didn't say we left him in there for that long in the day (unless it's through the night which he sleeps through!). Also not sure what you're horrified about? I posted on here for advice as I'm a new dog owner so it's entirely unhelpful for comments like that. We work from home and are with him 24/7. When he's in his crate he can always see us and has always been fed, watered and been to the toilet. Our breeder, trainer and vet have all said not to go to him if he's crying. Obviously if he were crying for a extreme amount of time I'd understand your comment but it's not? At most I imagine it's been 15 minutes and then he goes to sleep. We are doing the absolute best we can for our little puppy. We read puppy books, consult with our vet and have joined this forum all so that we can do the best job that we can for him so I am entirely happy that no one should be "horrified" in the way that we are with him. For example, he was asleep on my lap one night last week and I thought I could hear him wheezing so I took him straight to the emergency vet where they told me he was snoring and there was nothing wrong with him!

Have not re read through all the thread but seem to remember you saying something about puppy having to spend time being crated when you have guests staying? Apologies if I am incorrect.

As to my being horrified if it were a puppy of my breeding I stand by that statement. I had a puppy owner who was leaving puppy to not only cry but scream for hrs and it made puppy very poorly,it was only when I threatened to go get her that  the owners realised how wrong they were. It was your comment about not going to him when he cried that prompted my response

> once he's been in there for a couple of minutes he just starts crying. It usually lasts for about 20 mins or longer.
>
>

Just started to re read this thread and this was what you said in your opening post. In your reply to me the time has changed to 15 mins or less so which is it?

> This is a huge problem for us as we own a cycling tour company and we need to have sorted this before the summer season as our guests won't be happy!
>
>

That implies you will expect puppy to spend some considerable time crated

All the advice that we've read says to ignore the dog when crying (confirmed by Henry's vet)

One important tip for the future: Never trust a vet for training advice. It's absolutely pointless as they have no training in behaviour and usually very little understanding.

I must say I've never timed it exactly but it's felt like that long. I totally understand where you're coming from re the crying and making puppy ill from stress which is why I've posted on here to find out what to do. It's advice I need! I only want to do the best by little Henry so if I'm doing something drastically wrong (and indeed have taken wrong advice from vet etc) then I'll take some advice. 

Next question, how do you get them to like their crate? I thought about leaving treats in there for him but will that work? I've made it "den" like so that he sees it as a warm little place to snuggle up into but he seems to much prefer our laps (which I'm not complaining about as I love cuddles with him!)

> how do you get them to like their crate?
> he seems to much prefer our laps

Don't make it an either/or...   When it's time for him to be in his crate it should be when your lap isn't available i.e. you'll be busy doing stuff and if he wants some peaceful time then the crate is the best place for him to be.

If you want to spend some time in the evening watching TV with him on your lap then make sure there is some elapsed time between turfing him off, and putting him to bed.  They soon twig that TV off, lights off etc means you're getting up and moving anyway...

I must admit that I limit cuddle type time (on the furniture) when my pups are very young.  It's too easy to relax your boundaries and teach them bad habits and I need my dogs to be very comfortable on the floor, hands off, and self reliant sometimes as we have children with whom they'd take all sorts of liberties if I let them !!

Ok - I'll limit cuddling time/have some cuddling time on the floor and not on the furniture! He's currently looking at me whilst standing on his back legs with a sad face so it might be a struggle..... :-)