My homebred 4 month old pup is driving me mad with her toileting habits!

Day to day when she is around the house with the other dogs things are fine, she asks to go out and doesnt have any accidents.
My problem is overnight (crated) and when she is put in her crate for time out for periods throughout the day (she is very active and will NOT stop unless I put her in her crate for a rest/sleep.
At night she is pooing like there is no tomorrow, I have tried her in different sized crates, a smaller one so she wont mess in her sleeping area but she still does and a larger one so she can mess avoiding her sleeping area....neither work, she does around 4 poos in a night, this is despite me getting up 2/3 times per night and making sure she toilets in the garden.

Also, in the day time she will toilet in the garden and then a short while later when she is in her crate she will mess again.

I have tried leaving her in the utility instead of a crate but she messes just as much but manages to spread it all over the other dog beds and they get upset, so I scrapped trying that.

I really dont know what to do next, I am at my wits end with her!

Could you try moving her meal times back an hour or two so everything has a chance to come out before bed? Then at bed time she can just have a bedtime biscuit to line her tummy.  At that age, when you gotta go , you gotta go :)

Wow that is a lot of poo! Perhaps this is a case of too much to come out! She sounds too busy to get it all out in the day and perhaps there is also too much food going in? I would try reducing her food, dropping a meal, or even changing to a higher quality food which produces less waste. When you toilet her, you know that she is not empty, so don't crate her until she has done a second poo. I would ensure she has a chance to potter around the garden without the other dogs to distract her, it may take 20 mins for her to relax and produce the goods but really avoid putting her in her crate unless you have seen the right amount come out or she is just being set up to fail. You'll get there in the end! We all do! Good luck

Thanks for the replies, she is fed on a very high quality food already and she is slimmer than I would like for a pup her age so can't drop a meal or reduce the amount, I will try feeding her an hour earlier and see if that helps. I do stay outside with her on her own until she has toileted and then she just sits in front of me! Puppies eh!

sounds like she may have a problem which may need sorting by a vet as this is clearly not right.  I'd look at her food, what you're feeding, when and whether or not she's got an infection of some sort. 4 poos a night isn't 'normal' - it may be you're giving her too much food, too late or the wrong sort of food for her.  Your next problem is that she seems to connect crates with pooing which isn't ideal, you'll have to go back to the beginning with this -  looking at when and how long you leave her crated during the day - is she thinking that's where she should mess?  I think a trip to the vets and/or a good look at her feeding regime is the first step.

I really am certain that this is behavioural rather than a medical reason. Her poos are all well formed, she is fed on fish4dogs, I think you are right in the fact she is seeing her crate as a place to toilet. When she is crated in the day it's usually for an hour around lunch time and 1 1/2 hours at around 5pm so certainly not excessive.

fish4dogs has always suited my dogs, but not that of a friend.. so it may be worth changing to see if she does better on a different diet.  Noting how long she eats then poos may help, but it does seem you'll have to go back to basics - ensuring that she has poo'd before crating and trying to pre-empt her even though a lot of work may pay dividends... does she eat anything else.. perhaps that you don't feed her?  some pups have horrible habits!

If she is, as you say, slimmer than she should be, yet is passing lots of waste then perhaps it is the food. If she eats a lot but passes a lot then not much is being absorbed. That happened when my dog was recovering from serious illness, it seemed that he was passing way more than he was eating which was bizarre. The vet said it was because his enzymes weren't back to normal and he was taking very little goodness from the food. Now although your dog isn't ill, it could be that the food just isn't suitable for a pup. Just an idea. Hope it's all sorted soon.

I would tend to agree with you it's behavioural. It doesn't take much for them to get into bad habits but getting them out of it is something else, a few years back I kept a couple of pups who were like this.  Did you use puppy pads with your litter? Thats what I used early on with those pups, NEVER again.

It does sound like a lot of poo overnight for what goes in though. With my last pup (because of the previous 2) I was determined to be vigilant so I kept a pee/poo diary.  This pup was clean overnight (thank goodness) from a very early age (from 10 weeks  no paper down at night) but from getting her out of the crate until she was put in it to bed she did 12 wees and 5 poos most days, two of each usually before 9am! She was also on F4D and the output was reasonable. She never peed & poo'd in the same outing, and was taken out pretty much every hour, every meal and any time she got hyper, that was a good sign she wanted out.

Thanks again for the replies.

I never used puppy pads, the litter were clean (poo's) from 5 weeks as I was letting them out so often and they never went overnight.
Thinking about it, she and her brother (who only went to his new home last thursday as he went abroad) had a gastro bug when they were 9/10 weeks old, and from then on is when this started, the brother had the same problem but i nipped his in the bud within a week and he was clean day and night from 11 weeks.

With regards to food- does anyone know of a good complete that generally has lower output (I know it varies dog to dog).

Oh and with regards to eating things she should...she finds disgusting things rather tasty! But I'm on the ball and she doesnt have access to such things!

We had the same problem, whenever we crated Henry he would see that as his chance to poo. So we tried to trick him. We'd put him in his crate at night, wait a few minutes and then take him out into the garden and just keep doing that until he went to the toilet. He now never poos in his crate. He's also 4 months and just whines at the back door for us to take him out!

We feed Henry fish4dogs and he's fine on it but it might not be for every puppy I guess!

An update.

I have done away with the crate, she has a comfy clean bed and huge utility at night, she has now taken to messing in her bed, she could do it anywhere else but no, she chooses to do it in her bed and also chooses to then sleep in the bed. Our morning routine now consists of a bath, every.single.day.

I really am at a loss as to how to break this habit.

Did you bring her last meal forward to try and empty her before bed ?
Do you still get up in the night ?
Are you washing the bedding with biological cleaner ?

unfortunately when it becomes a habit to mess in their beds it's tricky to resolve... is it down to just one overnight now?  would taking her out several times during the night help?  whilst dogs are normally clean in their beds if this is prevented by something (like your pups stomach problem) then it may need to be learned - which makes it harder.  I would say you need to find a way to start teaching her to go outside and you'll only do this if you take her out frequently during the night, annoying (and means lack of sleep for you) in the short term, but the only way to ensure she becomes 'house' trained.

take her bed away? she may stop if shes only doing it in that ,1 of our girls wee's in a bed if i give it her so now she dont have 1 and she dont wee... im having problems with my daughters pup too she is 4months now and loves to run upstairs do a quick wee on the landing she is doing this at least once aday grrrr....but luckly she dont poo or wee at night she sleeps on my daughter bed with her and has done from the day she got her but she did set her alarm to take her out 2 times anight till she started to hold it ,she is a toy breed...good luck with our pup its such hard work isnt it x

I'm going to take a different tack here - I don't think shes really happy about being shut away/crated. The toiletting then is a result of anxiety caused by being shut away/crated/alone and has become a habit in part, (repeatedly putting her scent somewhere makes her feel more secure).

THat does also sound like a LOT of poo to be producing, and behavioural or not, it suggests that the food does NOT agree with her as much as you think.

Stick her on a raw diet for six weeks (just stick to a couple of meats and some vet, say chicken, lamb and a couple of veg/fruit, like celery and apple). The switch over from something like fish4dogs shouldn't be too bad. SHe really shouldn't produce huge volumes of poo on a raw diet so it would help iron out that aspect of things.

Next, I would take her up to your room to sleep, or sleep downstairs with her and let her out frequently during the night. If that stops the issue, then it is an anxiety problem. You can then work on b uilding up her confidence and work towards her sleeping where you would prefer once that is sorted out.

Thanks for the replies. I should have given more detail in my update.

She is no longer crated and is not shut away as such as she shares the room with my other dogs. I am getting up with her twice a night, it is now only one poo a night- regardless of what time I get up during the night there is always one pile there at random times in the night.

Unfortunately feeding her a raw diet is not a route I will go down, I am looking at changing her food though, anyone got any recommendations for a dry complete that generally produces less output( I know this varies dog to dog)?

I think that in this situation I would now suspect a behavioural problem, whatever the original issue. I have before had a dog who pooed to relieve anxiety. The food may be a contributing factor but it does not explain why she consistently chooses to mess her bed. That is not behaviour of a happy dog and I suspect that this is now a self perpetuating cycle because the longer it goes on, what ever the original cause, the more she is going to get anxious just by the whole night time experience. It may even now be the bed and bedding itself that is triggering the anxiety and pooing. I think if I were in your situation, I would move the pup in with me overnight, away from the other dogs, and go back to treating her like a brand new pup. Make your life easier and give her a plastic bed and a piece of vetbed so accidents are of minimal impact.
The only way to take steps forward to solve this is by prevention, and it is going to be a tiring process and one that requires constant supervision. Think newborn baby without a nappy on?!
As for foods that reduce output, as you don't want to try raw, I have found that dry completes with the main source of protein as fish, and the main carb as potatoes, with zero grain, have been the best. I have heard a couple of people with different breeds say the same so it isn"t just something I've noticed on my dogs. Sorry I can't recommend a brand because I feed raw at the moment and haven't tried the current recipes.
I really feel for you with this, and I feel for the pup too. It can really get you down when you can't seem to make progress on something so important. Best wishes x

Politics aside, I have always found Eukanuba excellent for low waste output with my lot.

Can't add anything else really to the advice others have given you, except to wish you good luck. :-)

I had a puppy who didn't digest kibble very well. She pooed an awful lot and always had to go during the night. This really slowed down her toilet training. This happened with 3 different high quality kibbles - the one she was on at her breeders and then the 2 others I introduced v gradually and persevered with for a while.

Finally I switched to raw and that sorted the problem. However I can totally understand why raw isn't an option for everyone. Have you though of Nature Diet as an alternative to kibble? I find it a good alternative to raw feeding as it's v easily digestible and the output in terms of poo is similar to raw feeding.

shivj - this is what drover is feeding (ie fish4dogs)

I agree though about taking her back to basics and having her near by.  It may be an anxiety about being away from you, with one of the other dogs, could be anything... I would want to be handy to try and take her out whenever it is that she feels the need to poo - probably put her back in a crate by the bed.

when my daughters pup is left alone in the day (when i nip out to shops) she hates it and will poo in the kitchen and it goes very soft i know this is a stress thing she does as she hates being alone.

Thanks again for the replies, I am reluctant to take her to bed with me, even if in a crate. She is in the utility underneath my bedroom and I literally hear everything that happens...I can hear them having a drink!

I dont think it is an issue with either being left alone/confined/around other dogs (though obviously I could be wrong) as she seems very happy when either put in her crate or behind a babygate in one room, she really is a very happy pup that seems to bounce back from anything. If she were a person she would have a constant smile on her face!

I'm going to change her food and see if that helps, if it doesnt then I will try her in the bedroom with me, and if that doesnt work...I will be back asking for more help!

Drover,

It is an interesting case. Have you had her vet checked just to make absolutely sure that the gastric bug could not have had some bizarre lingering effect? I totally take on board that she manages during the day and that her movements are solid and 'healthy' looking. I also understand that she is now down from 4 poos a night to one.

She does not seem to be that concerned about sleeping near her poo, having poo on her bedding.

A couple of things occur- she clearly has a very fast system so when she goes it is really quick and probably immediately slips out, perhaps this has not given her much opportunity to develop good impulse control yet. I think your instinct to get her on a food that bungs her up more is worth a go, just so she has to develop a bit more awareness of the feeling of needing to go- again perhaps the vet can advise.

I also wonder if the fact that she is so on the go means that she is utterly exhausted at night and this all adds to the lack of impulse control- the stuff is out before she is properly compos mentis, if that makes sense.

I wonder, would it help to put a litter tray with grass and soil in it right by her bed, with a bit of her poo on top and see if that might help her to move the few inches off her bed to do it? This would be some progress, if it works, that you could build on.

One way that some use to help with elimination is by feeding where they eliminate- the idea being that a dog does not want to poo where it eats (except those with coprophagy, obviously). I'm not sure it would be a good idea to feed her on her bed, but if you reintroduced the crate and fed her in there and then at night leave the crate open with the litter tray at the entrance?

These are just ideas and could be wildly wrong. If you thought they might be worth a go it'd probably be a good idea to chat it through with a knowledgeable person first, as well as your vet.

Thanks for the reply.

I did nip her down to my vet who agrees that it is behavioural rather than medical.

I'm not sure if the litter tray thing would be a good idea to be honest, she is a real digger and loves nothing more than spreading soil/plants across the garden and into the house....she thinks its fab! :)

> I dont think it is an issue with either being left alone/confined/around other dogs (though obviously I could be wrong) as she seems very happy when either put in her crate or behind a babygate in one room

Buster will be 5 years old this year, he still pees in the house :(
He was peeing on the sofa (he used to sleep on it at night) untill I had a great tip on here to stop him getting on it at night - put dining chairs on it.
So now he pees in his bed!
I had always been 100% convinced it was down to how I house trianed him, I left puppy pads down during the night, so figured he'd simply learnt to pee on aborbent things during the night in our absence.
I had never considered it being related to him being alone as he never seems bothered to be alone BUT the funny thing is he does not pee if somebody is asleep on the sofa during the night (which has been happening a lot lately as we're realy busy with our business and one of us usually ends up falling asleep on the sofa).
He can hold his wee for ages - eg. hubby falls asleep on sofa during the night, dog also climbs on sofa to sleep, dog stays asleep untill hubby wakes up, which could be noon if he's crashed out at 4am. Dog hasn't been out for a wee since I went to bed at midnight so thats 12 hours of pee-holding.

If we were to both go to bed, 9 out of 10 times we'd come down to a dog bed full of litres of mastiff pee.

After 2 weeks of hubby sleeping on the sofa at night, the first night he slept in bed, the dog was sat at the bottom of the stairs growling & grumbling for attention before we had even switched our bedroom light off. I went downstairs, told him 'bed' and gave him a biccy for going to bed, he stayed there untill I was back in my bedroom, then I heard him get up and start pacing around the house. He wasn't 'anxious' but that is definately a sign he wanted us to be with him!

I now think his peeing at night is due partly to habbit and partly to being alone. It's a difficult issue to tackle and just to show how complicated such an apparently simple thing is - he spent the night downstairs on his own last night and DIDN't pee!

If we slept on the sofa every night there would be no problem, but the sofa isn't big enough for me hubby & the dog and the dog just LOVES to cuddle with us on the sofa (it's a corner sofa and when I've fallen asleep downstairs too, hubby & dog have the 2 longest parts and I get to squish in the corner and can only put my legs out if I have them draped over the dog - he doesn't mind, but it's not very comfy!)

There is no way the dog can come upstairs, for several reasons:
He has never been allowed upstairs so is not happy about climbing steps.
His elbows are nearly completely fused so actually getting back down them would be very hard. (he walks from his shoulders ratehr then bending elbows - imagine coming downstairs on 'all 4s' without being able to bend your elbows)
If we were able to get him upstairs there is no space large enough for him to sleep apart from on my bed - as much as I love my dog, I am not sharing my bed with my hubby AND a 14stone dog, I know what would happen, the dog would lay onto of me and that's not very healthy (he is heavier than me so it carries a suffocation risk!!!!!)

We are planning on winning the lottery and buying a large bungalow so the dog can sleep in our bedroom! That would be the perfect solution :)
Since hubby has had a 2 week stint of spending the night on the sofa, with random sofa-sleeping since, it appears to be helping a LITTLE with Busters bed-wetting (Buster will pee his bed then go back to sleep in it).

Anyway, after all my waffling, don't dismiss your absence as a factor just because your dog seems happy. Your absence may be a cue through habbit or it may even be a concern for your dog, even if it doesn't concern your dog enough for it to show 'anxiety'.
Definately try sleeping downstairs and see what happens then.

ML,

Oh poor you, I had not realised this was still happening. I think you may be right about the puppy pads- yet one has to consider why he can hold in your presence but not out of it? But more than that what makes him empty all over his bed, when marking would be more effective- as an anti anxiety thing? It sounds more like a protest, and does he watch you clean the pee up? I wonder if he has made some kind of association that the peeing gets you back full time in his space....eventually?

I just wonder, if you got a blow up bed to sleep on and slowly moved it further and further away from the sofa over successive nights until you are out of the room but on same level and see what happens? The next big stage would be you going up the stairs. I'm thinking perhaps one of those baby monitors, so he can hear you breathing etc..Forgive me if you've already done/thought of all this and it may also sound a little mad but it's one hell of  a pain for you to live with.

Drover,

Yes, I did wonder about the efficacy of the litter tray especially with the other dogs around. Could you slip it outside her sleeping area when she is asleep and just get a roll of turf and put that in?

My other thought is that if she is down to one poo a night perhaps you are slowly getting there- it is hard to believe she is totally happy to sleep in her own doo. You almost want to rig up a camera and just film one night through, to see exactly what she is doing and whether she is properly awake or doing it partly asleep.

I can understand why mastifflover can't let her dog come upstairs, but in other cases it always amazes me the lengths people will go to have their dogs get used to sleeping in another room. All the interior doors are open in my house overnight and all my dogs over the years have chosen to sleep in my bedroom. There are dog beds in the bedroom, but they also have accesss to their beds in the livingroom, not to mention the sofas and chairs!!, but they prefer to be with me. I have never had any problems house training any of them, whether they arrive as puppies or adult, untrained rescues, and once they are trained I never hear a cheap out of them all night, nor do I have a problem with them trying to come on my bed--they know that's not allowed.Peaceful nights for all of us. Dogs like to be in the same space as their human, and I like to be in the same space as my dogs--wouldn't occur to me to shut them away.
No matter how happy this puppy seems to be through the day, I feel sure this is an anxiety problem.

Brill Freeelancer, you've given me a light-bulb moment. :)
I'll start a new thread as I have a rather long post to explain and don't want to completely high-jack this one.

Edited to correct typos - I was so excited I typed in a blurr!

> Dogs like to be in the same space as their human, and I like to be in the same space as my dogs--wouldn't occur to me to shut them away

That's entirely your opinion and preference :) I do not like my dogs sleeping in my bedroom. They sleep perfectly happily downstairs. We did have them sleeping in our bedroom for 18 months when we were doing major renovations to the house and were living in the bedroom, but as soon as we could they went back downstairs again :) I can forsee a time when my older dog may not be able to manage stairs or might have accidents - if he was used to sleeping in the bedroom it would cause him additional stress to make him sleep downstairs.

> Peaceful nights for all of us

Exactly - my dogs make no noise during the night at all and do not wake me up with their snoring :)

>but in other cases it always amazes me the lengths people will go to have their dogs get used to sleeping in another room

What you do is your choice, but it is not mine and never will be. None of my dogs are allowed upstairs at any point of the day or night, I do not want disturbing from them wandering around, nor do I want the hair.
My dogs (and I do believe the pup does too) cope fine downstairs alone, it is certainly not detrimental to their health or happiness.

>it always amazes me the lengths people will go to have their dogs get used to sleeping in another room.

Why? My child and his friends didn't sleep in my room either!

Seriously, I have to share with the dogs when we're camping, and when my old girl wasn't well she slept with us for a while (till she became unable to go downstairs by herself) and it was awful. She snored and twitched and fidgeted all night, and we barely got any sleep for weeks.

No, upstairs is a dog-free zone. :-)

Any luck with finding a new food ?. Maybe she's got so used to needing to go that sleeping around her mess has become normal ?. Earlier you said that you felt she's slimmer than you'd like but that she's producing a lot of waste, which I felt pointed towards the food not suiting her and not being absorbed - what did the vet think ?.

My vet gave her a clean bill of health and agreed that maybe I should change her food.

After thinking and researching quite a bit I have decided to move her onto raw (its so daunting!), though so far she has been clean day and night for 2 nights. I made the decision to not disturb her in the night by going down to let her out, I have also played a vigorous game/training about an hour before she goes to bed, I think this stimulates her bowls so she is emptying everything before she goes to sleep. I have also put her back in a crate (a different one to before but in the same place) as I think it was too tempting for her to play with the others/stimulate herself during the night.

I'm not going to count my chickens and will still move her onto raw as she still isnt as solid as I would like, but its definitely a step in the right direction with her, it was SO nice getting up to no poo!!

I was thinkin about your issue today (I am currently on a four day John Rogerson course) - he says (and he has references to back this up but i forget them and my  notes are in the car) that 3 poos per 24 hour period is the maximum a dog should be producing.

If a dog is doing more than that then something is wrong - if there is nothing wrong with the dog physically, then its a behavioural issue, or, the food is creatin too much waste.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on with raw feeding - i would certainly never go back to complete tinned or dry food now.

Hi Drover,

If you're daunted by the switch to raw, an easy way to do it is to use a a company that works it out for you. I use Natural Instinct (but there is another one I've seen called Honeys) They deliver frozen pre prepared mixes of raw meat, offal, bone and veg. As you shouldn't mix kibble and raw in the same meal, I just replaced one meal at a time with the raw and the switchover was complete in under a week with no upset tums. They do a mix for puppies.

Then you can add the chicken wings, lamb necks, ribs etc over time as you and your pup adjust.

I still keep meaning to read the Tom Londsdale book and see about working out the meals for myself, which would be cheaper, but using NI has been so easy and I'm v happy with the quality.