Hi folks,

Just come back from a disastrous walk. Have recently decided that Hugo cannot be trusted off the lead, due to his chasing habits, poor recall and the fact he'll end up squished on a road somewhere. So, we've had a last ditched attempt to re-train him on walks with a long lead before we re-assess whether we have to resort to this electric collar. He was being particularly naughty and cocky today, wouldn't heel, wouldn't stay behind me, wouldn't focus on me, just busy looking for stuff to chase the whole time.

We'd been out for five minutes and as we walked into a field, three deer were just 20 metres away grazing. I was actually looking around for the beagle and didn't notice them until Hugo wrenched the lead out of my hand and tore across the field with me right behind him screaming "Hugo! No!" repeatedly. I could actually see one of his ears cocked in my direction each time I shouted so I KNEW he could hear me. He just chose to ignore me. One deer did a circuit of the small field with Hugo right behind her then came straight at me, I had to jump out of the way! I was absolutely terrified (but also hugely angry that it was happening YET AGAIN) - Hugo had the extendable lead with the big handle on the end and I knew he'd get caught on a fence and end up dangling by his Halti with a broken muzzle or something. So as he came past I rugby dived on him. He dragged me a few metres then collapsed under me and I'm sorry to say this, brace yourselves, but smacked him really hard on the ass several times shouting "No! Bad dog" :( I have omitted the expletives for you. I think my wrist is sprained from the handle being ripped from my grasp, I have grazed hands, holes in my clothes and nettle stings all over as we ended up in a patch of them.

We immediately turned back, Hugo on his Halti with 2mm of lead between my hand and his head. He didn't even care - he was still too busy looking for the deer.

I've ignored them both since we've got back. They can stay in the cold kitchen all night for all I care. Walking Hugo has become the most miserable daily routine ever. Sometimes when he runs off, I always imagine the worst that could happen to him, i.e. being shot or run over and sometimes actually feel relieved. I've even thought to myself "Fine. At least we don't have to worry about him anymore then" I know that's an awful thing to say, I don't need you lot to tell me that.

Hugo has so much exercise when he's out that I wonder if he's now too fit and simply has to run to burn all his energy off. He has plenty of chews and toys, but has no special interest in any of them. I usually dish out one toy each but they don't even bother playing with them unless they're furry then they'll simply rip off all the fur and destroy them. Therefore I cannot use a special toy to train him with. He's never interested in food/treats on walks and neither is the beagle. When offered they ignore it and run off. So I cannot use this trick to train either. That's why we were using the long lead training technique, trying to build up the mental umbilical cord in his head.

I have a deep mistrust of 'behaviourists', you never know who you can trust (and I've been ripped off by one before) and I just don't believe they can help without food or a toy as a training aid.

I'm at my wits end. I know you all detest this e-collar thing - I'm not even sure myself whether it would deliver enough of a shock to deter Hugo when he's in full chase mode anyway. But there must be circumstances when the last resort method must be tried?

Sorry to moan. Feel free to deliver an e-mailed slap across the face with wet fish.

Miserable Lady G

I cannot offer any practical advice ..but I will give you a huge

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hug))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Because you sound SO fraught :( I do hope someone can come up with something to help

Love
Melody

I do sympathise with you, when I was going through aggression problems with my GSD I many times came home and sat down & cried in sheer frustration after being dragged across a field by him in an attempt to get to another dog, all I can say is keep at it, we seemed to be going one step forward and 3 back for ages, then I suddenly realised he was getting there, Hugs from me as well Ingrid

Please contact John who is an ex police dog handler with a wealth of experience and amazing results to back him up.
john@blackbanks.fsnet.co.uk 01325 355146
I've seen first hand the results of his methods and I think he works miracles, if the dog doesn't respond you'll get a full refund, if the dog reverts to type he'll retrain at no extra cost. I really think it's worth contacting him for advice.
Julie :)
www.blackbankskennels.co.uk .....you could also check out the website,Melody'll have to teach me how to do links!:D

Julie ...in help it shows you how ...for your link you would do:

{link http://www.blackbankskennels.co.uk }Write what you want here{/link}...but instead of the curly brackets ..do square brackets :) and it would look like this : Write what you want here

(Hope that shows you how ...)

Melody :D

Hi
Poor you:(
All I can say is that my friends weimaraner (excuse spelling!) also chased deer! Her two dogs used to dissapear of hours on end!
What worked for her is a dog whistle, don't know if it would deter Hugo though!
Good luck
Vickie & Marley (who is too fat and lazy to run) :D

Poor you! Hugo sounds like my mental Springer. I know exactly how you feel about wishing he would get lost, etc. I used to feel like that too. He also could not be distracted by toys or food when excited, although he loves his food and is a human dustbin indoors. I discovered at xmas that he could be distracted by a toy that makes a "giggling" type noise. I also wonder if a hunters duck-call thingy (don't know the real name) would distract him?

I used the giggle ball to distract him when he was chasing after two dogs who live next door and it worked!! The first time ever. (He has destroyed the toy unfortunately but the giggle thing inside still works.)

Sorry I can't give any proper advice but I wanted to know you're not the only one with this problem. :)

I wish you the best of luck with Hugo :)
Lel

Oh Lordy !! you are not alone :D
I've mailed you
Liz:)

No indeed you are not alone. :( :(
Sending huge hugs from the b*****d Dobermann gang !!
Some days I feel exactly the same but I think you just have to hope that tomorrow is indeed another day.

Have a nice sleep and ignore the little gits tonite and just try to destress and hope you're feeling better tommorrow

Beth

ahhhhh I'm sorry to hear you are having such a hard time with Hugo, especially after his last escapade when he hurt his paw. Dobes can be very strong willed, stuborn and a downright pain in the a*se, but never the less we love em (even though I'm doberless at the moment :) ) Have you thought about a remote collar that sprays citronella instead of an electric shock, not too sure how well they work but it might be worth looking into. I'll be speaking to my friend who owns 5 dobes either today or tomorrow I will ask him for some advice. I don't like those flappy extendable leads, they are more effort than they are worth. Maybe you should try a length of knotted rope at least its a bit easier to hang on to if he starts to leg it.

Hope you are not too depressed about the situation, after all you are trying to do your best. I'm sure Christine will give you some good advice or why don't you speak to Nancy or Clive Evans at Amazon, they may be able to help.

Just a thought if you wanted a strong long line, try your local saddle shop, they have for sale lunge lines which i think are about 15 metres long this might be better than the extending lead, and a lot stronger as they hold horses! good luck!!

This probablt isn't much help :( but if its any consolation....breaking a hound or a cur to deer is the most difficult thing of all and very few people can achieve it. If you have deer around then I think you will have to accept that he cannot be loose in their vicinity.

I personally think smacking his arse (sic) was minor compared to what he deserved & what i would have given him!

Thanks folks. I've ignored them all night except for dumping their food unceremoniously down on the kitchen floor. They haven't twigged at all. Still bounding upto me with wagging tails expecting to be allowed into the lounge as per usual.

Fuuny that some of you should mention lunge lines - I have one lying around somewhere, will dig it out. I have had many toys that make silly sounds & sing rhymes etc - neither are bothered by it and will simply tear it to pieces if they get the chance.

Sam - he did get more than a few slaps, I was in total red mist, but I won't go into any more details for fear of being reported to the RSPCA! Unfortunately, there are deer everywhere here. It is not possible to define what's a deer area and what's not - therefore the only choice is to have him on a lead permanently which is what we've been doing. He won't be getting anywhere near enough exercise but tough sh*t really. Better than yet another vet bill or a dead dog. Although, to Hugo, being on a lead doesn't matter - he'll just escape anyway as I've highlighted today. If I had held onto that lead it would have a) snapped or b) dislocated my shoulder.

I totally appreciate it is my own lack of training that has resulted in this mess. I will e-mail that ex dog handler chap and see what he's got to say. Also, the citronella collar sounds like a mild alternative to the e-collar. I'll see where I can get hold of one.

All hugs/advice very much appreciated. Thanks for not shouting at me for being a dog beater!

Lady G

Just a thought,(if you have one) try your local dog warden, they sometimes have them that you can hire. Ingrid

Oh dear and I thought I was having some problems with my berner puppy. poor you!! wish I could help.. I was warned by my pups breeder that snowdrops could kill him and to watch he didn't eat plants..I spend a huge amount of time with my hands in his mouth draggin out every scrap of a leaf or dead flower just in case it's bad for him.. sometimes I say to him well ok if you get poisoned and die its your own fault,we all feel so angry when we've done all we can for what seems like nothing.. I'm so jumpy because the breeder also said he may get dioreagh (never know how to spell that!) and then if he does don't feed him for 24 hrs..Horrors of horrors he would be eating me if i had to do that , he's just an eating machine..You'll get the best help here on this site anyway I'm sure of that.. Good Luck xx:)

Regards Sandyxx

No help, but I know a family who had a wonderful, soppy, obedient Dobe, which died suddenly and they replaced it with another wonderful, soppy and even when I last spoke to them, unmanageable Dobe! He would take off for hours if he got off the lead and no amount of "discipline" did any good. His "bits" were numbered and then his remaining with the family was numbered - he was to go back to the breeder. Anyway, I think he has calmed down now, but I will enquire about this tomorrow for you - I think this one isn't two until June time either.

I wouldn't know what to do in your shoes I'm afraid - I'm so lucky that my Vizsla is more worried as to where I am on a walk than where he is! He will run ahead for a hundred yards or so and then double back at high speed. Spends more time "pointing" at deer, birds and doesn't want to chase at all. Closest he got to a deer was a man thinking my dog was one, with the colouring and him leaping through the undergrowth!!!

Anyway, good luck and I hope he "suddenly" grows up!

Hmm, I have wondered whether it's just adolescence with him. But then, I have friends who've owned dobes who were mad all their life! I wish I could just sit by and & wait for him to grow up but it's too dangerous and expensive for that now.

I long for a dog who trots obediently by my side gazing adoringly up at me. It's got to be better than watching Hugo's rear end disappear into woodland 2 miles away & wondering whether I'll see him again...:rolleyes:

Hi,

Poor you, no fun when what's meant to be enjoyable becomes such a trial.

Don't know where you live, but how are you served for cycle-paths in your area? Maybe it would be an idea to avoid the open areas, and do some bicycle work with him - obviously starting off slowly to ensure he doesn't attempt to cart you on a bike too.

Maybe some people who have bought Springers (Springers Bike Leads) could update you on whether they are as efficient at managing strong dogs as they claim. (I have been threatening to buy one for ages, but haven't got round to it yet.) At least then you could wear him out with exercise in a more controlled environment?

M.

PS - sorry, will stop b*ggering about with link now, but was determined to succeed ..........

Hi Lady G
Im no dog trainer or expert for that matter but I'd like to say my peice and hopefully that may help you. I've got a GSD 15 m/o bitch. The way I trained the "Come" command was the obvious, >give the down and stay command, walk a few paces back, offer a treat and say "come". This went on and on until I advanced her training. There are 3 steps to training. The first is the LEARNING phase, where you teach him/her with treats. The second is the CORRECTION phase, where the dog must do what you command, when you command otherwise it get a small correction (corrections increase in intensity if dog persists not doing what its told) and finnally, DISTRACTION phase, where the dog does as you command whist there are many distraction around you (distraction intensity increases as the training progresses. A small distraction maybe a car going past. I think your largest distraction will be the deer)
The way I trained Sophie the COME in the distraction phase, was I let her roam the fields (hoping her to get intrigued by a smell) BUT I KEPT HER ON A 30 METRE ROPE ATTACHED TO A CHECK CHAIN. As soon as I saw her sniffing around (ie her taking more notice in a smaell then me) I gave her the COME command. I gave her a quick yank even if I saw that she had reacted immediately, and she was running straight back to me (the yank is important because eventually the dog tries to "beat" the yank, and the result is that the dogs speed in the recall improves). I learn't these tecniques from video by a police dog handler/expert Schutzhund trainer/ breeder of GSD's in USA.
From the very first day I got her, the cats in our neibourhood (one in particular) always used to harrass her when I let her play in the garden. Ever since then, obviously, she now hates cats, with a vengence may I add. To cut a long story short, eventhough I know that she will come back when called, I'd rather be safe then sorry, so I attach the long rope to her collar, just in case!!! I have also found that because the rope gives resistance (especially in the wet grass) when we play fetch, her legs are now extremely strong.
I think one thing that a lot of people these days tend to forget is that dogs were "created" to serve man. And if experts are telling us that their once wolf ancestry will not die ie leader of the pack theory, I must also believe that the willingness to please humans will also never die.
I'm sure that once you and your dog get an understanding going, and he realises that the chasing behaviour is undesirable, he will stop. I think dogs not only need to know what not to do, but also should be taught what to do, and in most cases this will be "do WHAT I say, WHEN I say it, regardless of WHAT is happening around you, and I will GIVE you what you want, as much as you want, whenever you want it"
Good luck
Josh_
P.s. please let me know what the police handler has to say. It would be nice to know what an expert would do in these circumstances

Hi Josh

You wrote:
<<BUT I KEPT HER ON A 30 METRE ROPE ATTACHED TO A CHECK CHAIN. As soon as I saw her sniffing around (ie her taking more notice in a smaell then me) I gave her the COME command. I gave her a quick yank even if I saw that she had reacted immediately, and she was running straight back to me >>

Somewhat dangerous I would think as if she had run in the other direction - 60 metres - and you had actually managed to hold on then with a check chain collar the damage caused as it tightened - ouch!!

The way to teach young dogs come is by a quick tug simultaneous with "Come" but on a short lead and then extend this to a trailing lead in one room, two rooms, house, house and garden etc so that the come command becomes almost brainwashed (other than when instinct takes over :(( )

Christine

Hiya Christine

>The way to teach young dogs come is by a quick tug simultaneous with "Come" but on a short lead and then extend this to a trailing lead in one room, two rooms, house, house and garden etc so that the come command becomes almost brainwashed (other than when instinct takes over)< Actually, when your in the house there is no need for any type of lead, because if your dog sees you with a treat, he will probably follow you around anyway!!!!but I do agree that you start in the house and teach him the down/stay or sit/stay first so you can give the command, go to another part of the house, and give the "Come" command.

What I should have mentioned though was that after the training which I did in the house, we went into the garden, which is obviously fenced off, so she couldn't run away. Secondly, she is still a pup, but even so, even with an older dog, you never want to "yank" too hard because (a) the neck is fragile and (b) if you do yank too hard, the dog freezes cos of the pain. The yank should be an encouragement not a punishment. Dogs learn the most when they are enjoying themselves, and I wouldn't enjoy someone yanking on my neck!!! Saying that, I wouldn't like to be walked around with a lead around my neck either, but 99% of dog owners are comfortable with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like I say, you cant train a dog in a park with loads of distractions.
First do the LEARNING phase in your own home around smells and sounds that the pup/ dog is accostomed to with treats and toys. Secondly comes the CORRECTION phase, which is also done in and around the house/garden(this stage is important because there are a lot of dogs who when you say something will ignore you, but show a treat, they do it straight away. This stage tells the dog to do as you're asked, cos your gonna have to do it anyway!!!).
Its also worth to note that in the first stage, you don't give any encouragement along with the treat. You show the treat, say "COME", the dog comes to collect treat, and you walk away. You should only need about 5 treats until the pup gets the message. In the second phase you REPLACE the treat with loads of praise. If in the first phase you give TREAT + PRAISE, when you eventually get rid of the treat giving, the dog no longer is bothered that your happy, but only "where the bloody hell is my treat? What have I done wrong?! If yor relace the treat with enough enthusiam and encouragement, the dog will probably start jumping up and wagging his tail. This is the first time he will think "it fells good to please her"!!! Once he starts thinking like this, you can don ANYTHING with your dog, as long as you keep up the encouragement and love!!!!
As soon as you train the pup/dog outside where there are always new smells/sights etc you will be automatically introducing the most advanced stage which is DISTRACTION. If there is a chance that the dog may >RUN OFF< then you have not gone through the first two stages correctly. The dog should be so good by the time you start phase three that the rope is purely for your own peace of mind rather than "THE DOG MAY RUN AWAY"!!!! and the speed should be so good that you will no longer need the yank!!!If you do though still want to improve speed of the come, continue the "yank" but use it as an encouragement. The rope is only to introduce a bit of distance between you and your dog. Dogs realise that their owners are only able to give punishment when at arms reach (sometimes, unfortunately, literally!!!and I've never seen an owner "tell" the dog off from 100 yards away!!!funny thought though :)). The rope just re-inforces the idea that you are boss whether you're at 1 yard or 200.
Your Dog will learn the following:- What is the "come"; How to "come"; always "come" when told, even if your doing something really intresting; "come" quickly. If these same principles are used for other training such as the heel, sit, stay and down the dog will also learn WHEN THE OWNER IS HAPPY, S/HE WILL ALSO BE HAPPY, SO ALWAYS DO AS YOUR TOLD!!!!*KISS* This attitude will always brings out the breeds natural instincts ie guarding you and your property for GSD's, Rotty's, Dobes etc This type of training encourages for a very loyal, and sometimes cocky and arrogant dog(not with you though), with a strut to match!!! As the dog gets older other, more advanced training can begin.
This is way Police Dogs/Army Dogs around the world are trained, and I know for a fact that they don't have problems with dogs chasing after deer!!!!
If you want to do a competetive "COME" then you need to do it in another way but thats another story!!!!:)
I hope I have cleared up any misunderstanding. I realise that I should have been clearer in the first place, but to be honest, ITS A LOT TO READ!!!
All the best
Josh_

There are a lot of people that go on walks for miles and miles, and let their dog loose. Sure your dog might be getting enough exercise, but I bet they get bored, so they find their own fun....in your dogs' case, chasing deer, but most common are smelling foriegn scents. Your dog must think that you, the owner, are the "bestest, most wonderful thing in the world", so much so, that if they take their eyes off you, or even dis-obey you, they are going to miss the next best thing to happen. This is hard as an owner to live up to, but this is the optimum in obedience. If they like chasing things, maybe you can play fetch (whilst still on the rope, give them a "check" if they dont return the object to you). If not fetch then some other game. Just dont let them do whatever they like. If you have two dogs, get one of them to "down-stay" next to you, whilst the other fetches, and while the other has gone to get the ball, give the other loads of love and attention. The other will soon get jealous and probabbly not want to get the ball cos the other, which is closer to you, is getting loads of love. One major thing that dog owners do wrong, is that they give love and attention to their dogs willy-nilly. Only give your dogs love, attention, favourite toys etc AFTER they have done what they have been told.
I'm sorry to go on like this but I really feel for you, and know that with a few changes, you'll have great managable, loving dogs. Please read books which not only teach positive re-inforcement but also negative re-inforcement and find a happy medium. Also I recommend books by Jan Fennell. The picture on the cover of the books just some up the relationship between dog and owner, where her dogs are looking up at her for guidance. JUST AMAZING

Josh,

Do you have to book title?

Pam :-)

"The Dog Listener", I assume - very cheap on Amazon at the moment!

M.

Jan Fennell, the dog listener.

Do you all think this is a good book, or at least those who have read it..

Think one of mine could do with a bit more training.

Pam

I found the book pretty basic,easy to understand and put into practice. There are some really insightful explanations for certain behaviour. I didn't stick to the books instruction, but did adopt some of the techniques. It's not to technical/academic. Doesn't take much time to read and as good a place to start as any :)

taffypacker,

Not quite 100% if you are recomending this to me or not. :-)

If you prefer an alternative I would be interested also.

Thanks Pam :-)

Yes, "The dog listener" and "the practical dog listener".
I read quite a lot of books, and on various areas of dogs training. There is another book "think dog" by John Fisher. To be honest I'm not always for the "touchy feely" approach. I prefer to give loads of love if Sophie does as she's told, and intense punishment if she doesn't. I like the way Jan Fennell punishes her dogs, and I like the way that she "controls" her pack. And I have found that some of the techniques that John Fisher recommends has stopped Sophie from jumping up at visitors.
There is a book on Schutzhund training, can't remember the name, but in it, shows different methods for teaching the same command. They say that dogs are all different and you must find the method which suits your dog the best....I think I agree with that.
Maybe you can also read training books specific to Hugo (is he a dobe? how old?). If so, this is good news, because you know that he has the ability to do anything you ask of him.
It really is now all up to you!!

Hi Jaime

I think fast moving objects are an irresistible attraction for most dogs - it is where instinct overcomes training

If there are a lot of deer in your area do you have any friendly deer farmers close by who may let you go and train Hugo amongst them so he becomes more familiar with them. Possibly keeping him on a double lead and collar (one tied to an immoval object and the other in your hand) for their reassurance just in case he does get away from you.

Cheer up - you do have the best breed in the world in spite of what others may say :D - remember that Dobes are just like the girl with the curl

There was a little girl
Who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her forehead
When she was good
She was very, very good
And when she was bad
She was HORRID!

Christine

Oh how true :D :D
Liz :)

Thanks Josh/Christine,

I have one of Jan Fennell's books - very good indeed and have trained using a lot of her techniques.

There are plenty of deer parks around here as we have a lot of private estates with them roaming free. Not certain what land owners would have to say about me training my deer-eating dog in there though!!!

Dogs were initially better today. For the first three quarters of our walk, the best most obedient hounds you could wish for. I had pockets full of treats and squeaky toys as per usual which were ignored, but Hugo only strayed 50 feet then kept returning to make sure I was ok. We did some pretend agility training over a nice high tree trunk together - that dog jumps like a stag! (No pun intended) We had lots of games of hide and seek, Hugo thinks it's terrifically funny to find me crouching behind a tree, knocking me over in his enthusiasm, then pees on the tree narrowly missing my head as I struggle to get up. We even met a retriever and a westie out for their walks and had a pleasant chat whilst the dogs played! My God! Hugo must be ill! :D It was as though they were apologising for yesterday.

Then, right at the end, the usual disappearing act. I refused to get angry, didn't even bother calling them, just walked back to the Range Rover and waited 15 minutes for their return. Even had a little snooze listening to Radio 2 and the sounds of Bertie in full beagle cry in the distance...quite romantic really. Cue up the Hamlet Cigar music - I think it's called Air in my G String or something like that. ;)
(Mental note, must put reading material in truck before setting off, just for these occasions)

Haven't heard back from dog handler guy yet - he's probably busy. Out walking his 300 perfectly behaved dogs! ;)

Lady G

Hi LadyG

Sounds like walks aren't much fun for you these days! The trouble with a grown dog like Hugo who's got away with b*****ing off at high speed for so long the thrill of the chase is worth any punishment that you can throw at him afterwards. This behaviour has now become learned. It's the norm!
You are going to have a hell of a hard job trying to break this habit while you have another scent orientated dog running free around him having all the fun and leading him astray. Leave him at home and take Hugo out on his own while you work with him to gain his attention. Toys don't work so leave them at home - no point flogging a dead horse, all you get is lumpy pockets from carrying them around for him. Treats aren't having much effect either - do you feed in the morning or give biscuits and snacks in the day? If you do stop and feed him last thing at night so he may be hungry when you take him for his exercise and more likely to respond to a food reward. If not then there's no point pursuing that line either so give the food a miss. Reward him for good behaviour with bags of praise and lots of hands on petting.
Keep him on the lead for now and don't let him off unless you are somewhere preferably enclosed where you KNOW he will not be able to chase anything. Go back to basics of lots of obedience commands. MAKE him do what you ask him to as soon as you tell him and praise him when he does. You can progress to trying recalls much later as you have to take a considerable backwards step now to try and correct his behaviour. Keep your other dog out of the way while you work with Hugo. It may be that he has a stronger bond with his canine companion than you. That is why I suggest that you separate them at times. Aim for his respect!
Lara x

Oh my god it sounds like Hugo is another Max Even now at 2, Max the deliquent GSD has been knows to pull me over (and I'm 15 stone) even when fitted with a halti device (he's learned how to pull you with the halti on) whenever another dog is near, god knows what he's be like if it was prey like a rabbit or something.

We have a training collar and it seems to stop Max in his tracks, but we daren't let him off his lead just in case he gets so into chase mode that he ignores the collar. We never walk Max near a road just in case because when he goes, he goes. If you find a solution to the chasing problem let us know. Good luck :d

What kind of dog is Hugo ?

dobe :D

Hi Lady G....
I couldn't see if anyone had said this already, since there are some really long posts on this thread.....

But it is VERY dangerous to the dog to have a halti and a flexi-leash on at the same time. It is not much better to have a training collar (choke chain) also with the flexi-lead on either-- it's still very risky. (I noticed someone on this thread mentioning the two together)

The only time a flexi should be used at full length, imo, is if the dog is wearing a body harness. Otherwise there is a BIG risk of a broken neck, esp. if the dog suddenly hits the rope end and you manage to hang on.

The further away the dog is, the less control you have, but the more 'leverage' on that (relatively) thin neck :( A buckle collar is basically useless since a strong dog can easily ignore it.

Training a dog needs to first be accomplished up close. Then use a longer 'lunge' line. But if you're in an area that you know the dog will take off, you need something more secure than to try to hold on to the head in a distance. There's just not enough body area and a dog can easily whip itself around and injure himself out of sheer stubborn eagerness. :(
good luck with your big 'puppy' :)
toodles

I agree with Sara's comments about the risk of a broken neck - it's better to be careful than have a dead dog.

I live near the New Forest and am part of a Working Trials group. We train in the forest, all over, and we are surrounded by loose, wandering, ponies, pigs, cattle, and yes - lots of deer . My dog also has a very very high chase instinct.

The worst any dog gets from me is a raised voice, which is rare. I will also put a dog back in the car if I feel there is any real silliness which is undermining learning ;) I am a great believer in laying the basic foundations of training, over and over, and then gradually "upping the criteria" over the months and if there is any sign of a problem, go back and keep training until the dog is reliable at that particular exercise.

A while ago my bitch put up a deer just feet from us, and she responded immediately to my "Leave it". Bloody brilliant feeling - but only achieved through hours of patience and very hard work.

I did train my dog with toys and food rewards initially - but you have to learn how to use these effectively, as there is a bit of a "knack" to getting them hooked. Also some toys are apparently much more exciting than others to a dog. I have a chase orientated dog so got her hooked on something she could chase - Kong on a rope in her case, but i worked hard at creating the "Want" .

I guess what I am saying is that it is the basic foundations which count, and that sadly doesn't help you in your situation :(. I agree with others saying that the dog has found the very best and most rewarding excitement and it will take a lot to remedy this, if indeed it can be remedied.

I know of dogs that have been stopped from sheep chasing bu the use of the MasterPlus, but the dogs need to be conditioned to it first.

It is possible that, I hate to say it, but this will never be fully resolved.It depends how bad it is and how much he is hooked. At 18 months he is probably at his worst behavoiur wise, and if he was walked in a park he would maybe chase joggers

It's a shame you have been ripped off as you say, by a B., and therefore put off them, because there are some wno are very experienced and have a very big success rate with chasing, although there are never guarantees sadly for those involved :( Too many X factors.

(If you have a genuine grievance that is fair, consider reporting the B. to their association, assuming you did get one from a reputable organisation? Hope so :))

I do wish you luck and really hope something turns up for the best. I hate to say it but it may be sensible and less stress for all concerned to consider rehoming....only as a very last resort:( John Fisher once said that when the pleasures of dog owning are overcome by the problems, then it's time to do a sort of re-evaluation (or words to that effect!!!).

I do hope things work out well for you all :)

Best wishes

Lindsay

Hello LadyG,

You said “we have to resort to this electric collar”

NO! NO! NO!

You also said you have a deep mistrust of behaviourists.

YES! YES! YES!

When I said no about an E collar I mean no to the way you have written it, no one who knows anything about E collars would use the word ‘resort’, I have used one and been trained to use one this past 12 months. The way you have written tells me that you, as many others, and as I did until a year ago have fallen victim to the commercial propaganda they put out against about E collars by all those wishing to convince us that obedience training lessons should last years, and with consequent fees, I have re-educated myself on that commercially originated myth..

You do NOT give the dog huge electric shocks as they would have you believe, you do NOT force the dog into a behaviour with them, they are NOT electric shock collars.

Electric shock collars have been obsolete for many years, they were for specialist use and had a low, medium high setting on them, that was in the late eighties, before that they only had one setting.

The electric shock worked the same as cattle fences, it went through the body and earthed on the ground, they were only ever used as far as I have been taught by professional trainers for specific training purposes and were never designed or intended for pet owner use. THOSE COLLARS ARE OBSOLETE and have been for about 5 years.

The collar I have has 18 settings and you do NOT use high levels, you do NOT use levels at all which takes the dogs concentration away from you and you do NOT, in your case, just let them off at high levels when your dog is about to chase something or whatever behaviour you want to stop. The modern E collar is a static electric stimulation which does NOT travel through the body it stimulates ONLY the area between two contact points on the surface of the skin. Static stimulation is the only peice of dog training equipment used extensivly on humans, before I ever thouight of an E collar for my dog, the poor relationship with him after endless reward only classes, I had a static acupuncture pen, I hardly felt it after I got used to it.

Misconceptions such as that have been deliberately put out by behaviourists and others with commercial interests because E collars are the biggest threat to their questionable methods of getting people to go to training classes, almost always unsuccessful, for months and years with the occasional referral to “My colleague who is a ‘dog therapist’ behaviourist’” etc.

Training a dog WITHOUT stress, without pain (as always claimed by behaviourists is the case if you do not use one of them) should not take more than 8 weeks maximum IF the person has the knowledge to train you in obedience and that INCLUDES a complete educational course on the dogs drives, its character and consequently its psychology AND that is for pet owners NOT competition dogs as some would claim.

BUT the way you write it seems you think that all you do is let them off at high levels as the behaviour occurs NO, that is MISUSE of the collar! If you want to use dangerous equipment then carry on using the Haltie, they really are dangerous not to speak of long lines and jerks on the neck etc. The E collars are designed by professional trainers, not simply a whim of electronic companies.

That is all I have to say about E collars and I am not very interested in writing here but when I see equipment I use and fully understand misrepresented I feel I must give a factual account and part of that factual account includes telling you that Chris Lawperson, head vet of the RSPCA uses the static correction invisible fence system on his two cats and one dog, many other vets are increasingly using them and maybe the most important recommendation is the fact that the worlds largest Humane Society, The Humane Society of the United States recommends them after carrying out studies with the Delta society as long ago as 1998 ( the Delta society train therapy dogs).

BUT there are many different kinds of collars for different purposes and you need a specialist (if you were in Europe or USA everyone understands them but here, as usual, we are behind) to advise you what you need.

I can recommend the guy who trained me, he will only use E correction collars, since they became modern and he has used all methods over many years, I do not know what dogs you have but he trained and owned the highest civilian recognition achieved Dobe the UK has ever had and has had Dobes for about 30 years.

He also works on contract, his assessments are petrol costs only, you have a trial lesson and one week later you decide if you want a course, you then gat a contract and you do have a money back guarantee, I might add he does not take on everyone who approaches him . It is not just training you train your dog , part of the contract is that he teaches you the dogs psychology which, I might add is VERY easy to understand, another behaviourist myth is to pretend dogs are difficult to understand and beyond ‘you and me’ don’t believe it.

If you want to make contact and have a chat with him just email me privately and I will pass his email. But please get the idea out of your head that E collars are some kind of last resort thing, no one who has used a reputable static collar system would ever use anything other kind of correction method and they make the relationship soooo much closer. I was at the edge of giving mine to a rescue until I turned to educate myself properly.

Finally I would say, if you have thought about just buying an E collar and letting it off as the dogs starts its chase etc, then do NOT buy or use an E collar because that concept is only misuse.

They are only recommended to be used as a correction technique in a reward based system, they are NOT made to be let off as high level negative stimulation technique. They work 100% because they are 100% consistent and 100% in the timing at any distance and they are associated ONLY with a command from you, any other descriptions of them, ignore them.

Lets face it the head vet of the RSPCA is hardly likely to use them on his two cats and one dog ‘as a last resort’.

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