Hi everyone,

I sold one of my puppies yesterday and she is being returned today, through no fault of her own! The buyer signed my contract and I explained that if he couldn't keep the pup at any point she must be returned to me immediately and he would not get a refund, although in most cases I would still have given one. However I have given a large sum of the money to my ex partner as he helped pay for one of my dogs when we were together, so if I refund the buyer in full I am seriously going to struggle until my next pay day. What would you do? Give it back anyway? Give half?

Thank you in advance.

I would fully reimburse for two reasons.  Firstly after just one day I would have to feel I was partly responsible in some failing of my vetting or in the case of an uexpected allergic reaction, say, I would not see it as the fault of the purchaser and secondly because I would not like to think there was any question that the purchaser might look to recoup their loses by selling the puppy on which, presuming the puppy is still only weeks old, would be all too easy to do.
If you feel unable to do this another alternative would be to sign an agreement to pay the purchasers when the puppy was resold by you.  I do not think it would ethical to make a second profit anyway.  The purchasers of course would have to trust you though and it would be reasonable to take a little expenses, ten pounds a week for keep and any advertising costs for example.

Surely, by stating on your contract that pups should be returned to you if new owner cannot keep them but that no refund would be given actually encourages people in that situation to go and try and sell them themselves on the internet ? That would be my worst nightmare :-(

You are very lucky they are returning the puppy to be honest and I am sorry you are in a difficult financial situation but regardless of how ridiculous it seems to be returning a pup the day after they got it, I think you should really offer a refund. Did you vet these people before allowing them to have one of your precious puppies ?

Give a full refund without question. There's no ethical or moral alternative.

Okay I am going to give them the refund. Yes they were vetted and it was a fantastic home, it is no fault of theirs either that they are returning her and I like them very much. As for my contract, it was written by a mentor who has been in the breed years. Do you think I should change it?

> Do you think I should change it?

Yes, I would.  Why are they returning it?

Yes if pups is still at the normal selling age then full refund, less nominal deposit (if taken).

On the other hand if this is an older puppy in a breed where there is little resale value past a certain age (thinking 6 months plus pup, in my breed would really almost be given away, and I have never charged for one re-homed), then you would offer the resale price less any reasonable expense incurred by you, once pup is re-sold.

If it is still a baby puppy in a breed where homes come along none too quickly then it may be fair to deduct a little for pups keep until it can be found a new home.

I found it wise after a time and experience to make it clear in the puppy sale contract that no refund is usually offered for an older puppy or adult dog, as adopters do not usually expect to pay for such, as it would be considered a 'rescue'.  It really can be quite breed specific.

Well, personally I can't see any benefit from stating in your contract that buyers must return their puppy to you if they can't keep it but they won't get a penny back ! It would certainly be a deterrent to return to the breeder for most people.

I agree with brainless though, it is age specific regarding the amount of refund given.

>As for my contract, it was written by a mentor who has been in the breed years. Do you think I should change it?

Yes. What encouragement is there to return a puppy without a refund when you could get a good price selling it? Return within two weeks should be a full refund.

> I found it wise after a time and experience to make it clear in the puppy sale contract that no refund is usually offered for an older puppy or adult dog

My contract states that any money received on a resale will be given, less reasonable expenses, so that covers that really. 
If you do happen to sell on an older age I don't believe it would be right to keep any money no matter how little it is.

That's great advice, thank you I will amend my contract to state no refund for older puppy or adult as this is one of those breeds. This pup was my last besides my own girl that I am keeping, the others were all booked well in advance and are happily settled in their new homes now but this little lady hasn't had any good homes offered besides this one, she is lovely and has great potential but people don't like her colour as much as the more common colours in the breed. She is already 4 months old. However I am going to give them the full refund and just keep her myself I think. It broke my heart to say goodbye to her after 4 months, I can't do it again.

> If you do happen to sell on an older age I don't believe it would be right to keep any money no matter how little it is.

I'd agree, it's just that in my breed I have never re-sold a dog I have had back, being glad that someone was willing to consider an older one and sort out any issues (lack of training, overweight etc). 

I have put relinquishing owner and new owner in touch with each other and they have made their own financial arrangements. This works well if there is no urgent hurry for the dog to go to a new home, and I am able to look out for someone suitable and vetted to pass on to the original owner.  Breeders often get requests for older dogs, usually from people already in the breed who feel age or circumstances would make an adult a better fit.

I don't feel I can charge when they are not getting a 'clean slate' as they are when buying a puppy (I only sell a pup once).  I feel when selling a puppy I know what has gone into that puppy and what experiences it has had, once it has left me for anything more than a few weeks, then I no longer can know, so a new potential owner is taking more of a gamble.

> I'd agree, it's just that in my breed I have never re-sold a dog

That's fine :), in which case no money would ever be given to the relinqueshing owner but I do think if you put in the contract no money will be given full stop, you increase the risk that the owner may just make their own arrangements and perhaps they will give it away rather than take the trouble of a journey back to you.

>That's fine , in which case no money would ever be given to the relinquishing owner

This is why I put:
"......this would normally not entail any refund, as the adopters would not usually expect to pay for an older 'rescue' pup or adult dog."

As I said I am happy to put a potential owner in the owners way and they are free to make their own financial arrangements, but if I have the dog back I do not 'resell'.

I am sure we have all 'paid' for a dog just to get it back, if we thought it might end up being resold without care.

Ah!  I think the OP has taken this bit quite literally then

>I found it wise after a time and experience to make it clear in the puppy sale contract that no refund is usually offered for an older puppy or adult dog

and decided to state no refund.:)

I think that is what she was advised by her mentor but aims to change it to something mroe flexible.

I can't believe they are returning it because of colour, it must be the same colour today as it was yesterday, poor pup, sound to me like someone else has influenced their decision.

In my breed some pups born cream can turn red/orange as they mature and breeders may or may not have realised this when advertising said puppy therefore not warned of the possibility prior to sale so I could understand a return and refund in those cases especially if it was to be shown/bred from as opposed to a pet.

> I think that is what she was advised by her mentor but aims to change it to something mroe flexible.

No, she has said

>thank you I will amend my contract to state no refund for older puppy or adult as this is one of those breeds.

I think you would agree it is best to not put it quite like that :)

> I can't believe they are returning it because of colour

I took her comments to mean "people" in general not these particular people.  I am not clear why the puppy has come back.

Ah I was commenting on the original policy of no refund.

>I can't believe they are returning it because of colour,

I read  it as the OP has kept the pup until 4 months unsold mainly due to its colour, not that that is the reason the buyers are returning it.

>In my breed some pups born cream can turn red/orange as they mature and breeders may or may not have realised this when advertising said puppy therefore not warned of the possibility prior to sale so I could understand a return and refund in those cases especially if it was to be shown/bred from as opposed to a pet.

This happens in my breed.  People advertise "blue pup, will remain blue" what a load of old codswallop.

I had a litter of LC Chihuahuas several years ago.  A white, a cream, and a very striking gunmetal grey.  People who wanted a pet raved over the dark puppy.  It obviously stood out from the rest.  I had to be totally honest and advise them that it was no use buying on colour, however attractive they found it, as long coats always end up a different colour as an adult.

This pup, as an adult, is fawn with a smokey blue mask. 

I read, people as in general don't like her colour. I am not clear either why they returned the pup. But I would give a full refund after all they only had her for 24 hours.

Sorry I read it as these people were returning it because of colour as someone had asked the reason for the return beating me to the same question.

"Yes they were vetted and it was a fantastic home, it is no fault of theirs either that they are returning her and I like them very much".

Fair enough, but what changed in less than 24 hours, that meant the pup was no longer wanted ?

Def Yes, no question. how would you feel if they found another home for it themselfs. returning to the breeder is the correct thing to do. you will, no doubt sell the pup and get the money back that is refunded to you?

I agree with brainless though, it is age specific regarding the amount of refund given.

Very much breed specific, too. One of my breeds would be worth very little by say 5 months of age (if anything at all) the other would not change in value at all even if adult.

It really varies in my breed, from adults free to a good home to a 6 year old currently advertised and they want £200 for her (which would buy you a puppy in this breed). Have also seen adults for sale at £350. So a lot of variation. I didn't state in my puppy contract that owners returning their dog/pup to me would not get their money back as, to me, it is far more important that they come back safely and not get passed on to someone who will pay what is asked but may not be the right home for them.

Yes they were vetted and it was a fantastic home, it is no fault of theirs either that they are returning her and I like them very much.

If those are the facts and that is still your feeling about them then I agree to a full refund too. :-)

For me the reasons for return would make a huge difference to my reaction, sometimes there is illness and death or even an unknown allergic reaction, there are sometimes unforeseen circumstances, which we all have to accept and are just grateful to have the pup returned to us.

But, if someone had wasted my time and worse my pups time as it takes so much to get through that vetting process to start with, turning others away and moving a pup around and unsettling it, I would not be happy, I would be so upset I wouldn't be able to hide it, they would definitely lose at least £50 for the inconvenience of finding a new home and having to settle the pup again. Hopefully there would still be others vetted on a backup list but I would not let anyone treat my pups like a handbag to return for no real reason.

But, if I feared losing the pup I would have to give a full refund, I wouldn't risk a pup being moved on.

In your circumstances you seem to accept the reasoning and not be upset about it so in that case of course a full refund. :-)

Carrington, you seem able to put my thoughts into a lot fewer and better words, LOL :)

:-)

This is what's in my general contract for pups that go around the 8 week mark.  I have the 'scale' somewhat varied for older pups depending on the age they leave

<<5.  The Breeder takes responsibility for all dogs produced by them for the life of those dogs.  If, at any time during the dog's lifetime, the New Owner(s) is unable or unwilling to care for the dog, the New Owner(s) agrees not to sell, trade or dispose of this dog without contacting the Breeder to allow the Breeder to either take the dog back or to be involved in the rehoming of the dog.  The Breeder MUST be contacted!  The registration documents, vaccination certificates and any other relevant documentation will need to accompany the dog on its return to the Breeder or to its agreed new home.

6.  If the dog is returned to the Breeder before 12 months there is a sliding scale of refund less any expenses incurred in re-homing the dog:
*  100% refund if the dog is returned before 12 weeks of age (less expenses).
*  50% refund if the dog is returned before 6 months of age (less expenses).
*  25% refund if the dog is returned before 12 months of age (less expenses).
After this time, the Breeder will accept the dog back, but there will be no refund due to the cost of keeping an older dog and the time and effort involved in attempting to re-home an older dog. >>

Having said that, if there was a legitimate reason within 24 hours I'd give 100% and hold nothing back.  I'd just want the pup.  And depending on circumstances, I'd potentially give 100% at any point if it guaranteed I got the pup out of a potentially bad situation...

Sounds quite reasonable to me.

It may sound reasonable but I think would deter a lot of people from returning a dog which is more than 12 months old as they may just sell the dog on themselves to recoup some of their money. I would just want the dog back and would pay to ensure that.

> It may sound reasonable but I think would deter a lot of people from returning a dog which is more than 12 months old

I agree.  I think there may also be the danger of someone having a few problems with a pup approaching 6 months and giving up on it before it's value drops by 25%! :)
Personally, I think the agreement to simply pass on any money received on resale remains the best option all round.

I think the only option is to NOT mention money in contracts. Each case will be individual anyway and you need to take it on its own merits. (Just think of this: You are having a 2 year old dog returned to you. Different case scenarios: a. It is a pet quality spayed bitch. b. It is a show quality entire bitch. c. It is a Champion entire bitch -yes it does happen! d. It is a well trained, obedient spayed bitch, not showable. e. It is a spayed, overweight, untrained bitch with aggression issues towards other dogs. There is no way all case scenarios would be worth the same amount of money.) I am using a contract drawn up by a dog breeding solicitor and it does not mention anything about money, nor does it say the owner MUST return the dog as of course there is no way you can legally demand that. This is what it says:

In the event that the Buyer finds it necessary to seek a new home for the Puppy, the Buyer undertakes to contact the Breeder who will use her best endeavours to assist the rehoming.

In my written info that I give out I go a bit further to explain:
. I will never turn my back on my puppies and if you ever are unable to keep him or her, I will always help in finding a new suitable home or take the dog back.

Verbally I give the speech about I will have any dog back whether it is after 10 days, 10 months or 10 years.

I would worry that no mention of money is not incentive enough, especially when the owner is perhaps faced with a costly journey.  As you say we cannot demand a return.

By promising only to give what the puppy/dog fetches on resale you are covering the issue of the different values.

I would worry that no mention of money is not incentive enough, especially when the owner is perhaps faced with a costly journey.

Again would depend on breed. I'd like to see any non-breeder being able to sell a fully adult show line pet Malinois on -nigh on impossible. A Pap however, that would be different. About journey though, I would always offer to meet halfway at least if far away (and have done), or come and collect, to ensure the dog does come back.