Hi All,

I am currently looking at two breeds a Working Type Cocker (which i had years ago) and either a German or English Pointer (i have had a vizsla in the past and my mother now has one). I would like a WCS over a Pointer i think due to Size, but my husband would prefer a Pointer as has always wanted one and prefers to short hair. We are not going to work our dog but we are a very active family, the dog will get at least one our of off lead walks, and an hour of on lead walk/run in the evening, as well as lots of training at home and out and lots of interaction with my too young children and ourselfs, the dog will go where we go, lots of walks, weekends away and trips to friends.

I just wondered if any of you could give me any comparisons to the two breeds?

KR

Sophie

I'd say chalk and cheese, other than both being gundogs.

Pointers will range ahead, so walking areas need to be well away from roads and large enough to allow for them to enjoy their off lead exercise.  The ones I know are lovely big clumsy goofballs as youngsters, some can be quite sensitive whilst growing up.

I have less experience of working cockers but they are Spaniels so go go go, busy busy busy.

If your looking for less frenetic but still energetic,. and can cope with/accommodate the size, then I'd prefer a pointer, but then I can't cope with Spaniels LOL, so it is really very personal, as for others they are their ideal canine.

As for hair, short coated breeds can in some ways be worse with short hairs being like splinters that can pierce the skin and be harder to remove from carpets and upholstery than longer hair.

Agree Brainless there is no comparison at all. Best to visit a few of both and decide which is for you but you will need loads of activity going on to keep a working cocker happy and liveable with. Pointers are far easier to live with they are far less "frantic"  much easier all round although bigger.

Cockers need more grooming.
Cockers need more entertainment provided both physical and mental.
Pointers can be a bit of a one man dog and as Barbara says can be sensitive, but given a good walk will settle down something a cocker will rarely do.

A German Shorthaired Pointer is a Hunt, Point and Retrieve (HPR) breed and as such will not range quite so far from you as an (English) Pointer.  The GSP is smaller than the Pointer by a couple of inches and similar in size to the smooth coated Hungarian Vizsla, both of whom are classed as medium.  They are lean and fold up quite nicely so don't feel like large dogs :)  The wire haired versions of both these breeds get my vote every time though, still 'medium' dogs but more robust, with very attractive whiskers and superb country coats!  I have two Hungarian Wire Haired Vizsla's and they are quite different to their smooth brethren and very easy dogs to live with.  Incidentally you still get a lot of coat variety in the HWHV so if you like a smoother coat (or rather less length) it's perfectly possible to find them in many litters.

I'd struggle to make room in my life for a working spaniel of any variety.  I can't be doing with a dog that gets up and dashes about every single time I moved (or looked like I was going to).  This isn't my breed preference either BUT if it were I'd aim for the show type and I'd choose a Welsh Springer.  I've never lived with one but I find them the most appealing for type and temperament

Hope this helps :)

I'd also encourage you to look at the HWHV, I don't own one ( yet ) but from the research i've done in the past few months a well bred one seems to be the ideal dog for a walking and jaunting about partner, but with the added attraction of them being quite willing to snuggle on the sofa too.

BUT if it were I'd aim for the show type and I'd choose a Welsh Springer

AAARRGGHHH...there is only one Welsh Springer type and it works and shows--not like its English colleague! Being completely and utterly unbiased, naturally, welshies are soft spaniels, sweet natured, very sensitive, make unbeatable companions, are very intelligent and 'thinking' dogs with a sense of humour. They get even better in a pack--hoping that 2012 lets me add number 4 welsh to our family. Oh, and did I say beautiful?

'type'

Yes I know - sorry shouldn't have used that word!!  You're absolutely right, tis the same in my breed too, we don't have a split either and I must say it's one of the things I find most appealing.  However I'd still go a breeder that shows over one that simply works.  In my breed it means one is more likely to find hip scored dogs...  (at the very least)

> This isn't my breed preference either BUT if it were I'd aim for the show type and I'd choose a Welsh Springer.  I've never lived with one but I find them the most appealing for type and temperament
>
>

I'd agree re Spaniels, I used to look after several Welsh Springers for their owners, and if I had to have a Spaniel I could live with a Welsh, they don't have a work and show split, yet aren't as frantic as the working versions of English and Cocker Spaniels.

pst, :) my absolute favourite HPR's are the Wire haired Viz, followed by Wire Haired German Pointer.

Working Cockers outnumber the show variety near me - they are generally good natured and (after the age of 2) quite calm and sensible. I am tempted to get one as my next dog - I use to love the show type but nowadays they have too much hair for my liking.

I have never met an an English Pointer, but the handful of GSPs I have met were hyperactive and needed loads of exercise

Welsh are such a numerically small breed that we all know whose is whose and where it came from :-), so hip scoring is not a problem. Almost every breeder does it now. I've had my dogs scored and one of them will never be used--it's just to add information to breed health data. We have a very large proportion of owners that show their dogs, far greater than those who work them, although those that work also show within the limitations of the docking legislation. This is generally a very healthy breed. In temperament and health-wise they are sounder than cockers. Now the cocker people will kill me.

My friend breeds Pointers and I have a HUGE soft spot for them, but they are definitely not a breed for everybody. When let off the lead they run and hunt and in a matter of seconds have covered a huge distance. We are lucky as we have thousands of acres of moorland that she exercises hers on, and it is a wonderful sight to see the ease at which they cover the ground but I would imagine anyone living in a town would really struggle to exercise them off lead. That aside they are wonderful characters.

Perhaps your best option would be to go along to a Champ Show on Gundog day and you will have the opportunity to chat to owners/breeders of the different breeds, obviously not the working cocker though.

We have working cockers, and I have had GWP's in my training classes.    Both can be nightmares if they are not trained by someone who really understands the needs of the breed, but can be completely delightful when correctly trained.     It is absolutely essential that the parents have good sound temperament.

There was a GWP mature male who came to training who was big, strong, and stroppy - the owner just loved to see him 'free running'.     On the first lesson we recommended that he needed a basic understanding of groundwork, and not to be off a long line (or even a short one) until he learnt basic commands.       The second lesson he came complete with training line, and on doing a recall, hurtled past owner at at least 40mph and vanished for 15 mins (luckily in a reasonably fenced area).    The third lesson was cancelled as he and his dam were both in the vets on intensive care as they had both been 'let off for a run together' and had caused an RTA.    Never saw them again.

Now working cockers who are incorrectly trained also have a tendency to vanish after rabbits etc, but the size is much more manageable in the first instance.   If the children involved are young, I would choose a cocker myself if this is the only choice, as personally I have found that correctly bred cockers far more biddable.   Generally speaking, working cockers are very sound temperament , and rarely suffer the problems of their show bred cousins.

Jo

> Generally speaking, working cockers are very sound temperament , and rarely suffer the problems of their show bred cousins.

Jo, I have seen you say this before but can you elaborate please on why you're so convinced working bred dog rarely have any problems? On a breed forum frequented by pet owners of both strains, I can assure you that health issues in working bred dogs crop up quite often, as well as temperament problems (of course there are many causes of such problems) Perhaps pet owners are just more open about talking about these things than breeders?

> There was a GWP mature male who came to training who was big, strong, and stroppy - the owner just loved to see him 'free running'. On the first lesson we recommended that he needed a basic understanding of groundwork, and not to be off a long line (or even a short one) until he learnt basic commands.

I think this was a case of a poor owner NOT a specific breed problem.  It sounds more like the owner was the one who needed to learn basic commands!  I've heard gun dog trainers say that German Pointers (GSP's and GWP's) can sometimes be strong minded and a bit stubborn in training but those who work with them are very breed loyal and the wires can really deliver results.  There are some excellent 'kennels'  producing great quality dogs for showing and working that can give more background if this is a possible breed choice for you.

Hungarian WHV's are easier to train than their German pals, both bird dogs, both HPR and I can certainly vouch for the biddability of mine.  My oldest was an amazing candidate for clicker training and will turn on a sixpence if I ask him to.  His nephew is slightly more resistant and can practice selective deafness but generally because he's more 'scent aware' and I simply have to work a bit harder to get his nose up.  That said, I notice it (as the one on the end of the lead/whistle) but an observer would just see them as willing dogs with excellent recall and owner awareness.  My youngest would be fantastic as a working dog and he's doing rather well in the show ring too :)

Neither of my WHV's are tempted to chase game or livestock - it's worth considering this if you intend to walk in the country.  Having got a terrier type mongrel who is terribly keen on the chase this was a big no no with my wires and one of the reasons I chose the breed

>Generally speaking, working cockers are very sound temperament , and rarely suffer the problems of their show bred cousins.

I'm not so sure - we have plenty of working cockers brought in at work with temperament problems (muzzles needed), eye problems (early blindness), ear problems etc. The show type tend to be much steadier and more easily manageable.

I have a delightful WCS bitch. she has been trained well and wil stop & sit & down at distance with the whistle. I also do clicker training with her and she is a nautural comedien. ful of enthusiasim and has a wonderful character. however part of that is breeding (from sound parents with good temprement) and lots of it is enviromental. ie. it didnt just happen a lot of hard work went into help make her the good dog that she is today. I run training classes and have had quite a few WCS in whos owners do not give the correct amount of mental or physical stimulation and what they end up with is a very frustrated dog. I agree with Jo on the health issues, WCS have much tighter eyes and i havent had any experience of WCS with en/intropian, but had a few at class that have had. aslo temprement is very different. say not more!

I live with three pointers, the oldest being 7, the youngest 2 having grown up with English Springers. Pointers are a wonderful breed and I am totally smitten, they are far calmer in the house than any of our spaniels ever were, however they do get two hours of mainly off lead walks a day. They love to gallop and hunt, and, like others have said will range quite a long way, but this is what they are meant to do. People seem to have recall problems with pointers, but, on the whole, as long as you understand them and instill good training early on there's no real reason for this to happen, pointers are generally quite biddable.

They are a bit sensitive, not nervous but they do like a bit of "soft" handling (with the occasional telling off!)

Don't think that the short hair means no hair around the house though! It gets EVERYWHERE!!

They are great to keep clean compared to a longer coated breed and make lovely hot water bottles sitting on your lap on a cold winter night!

> I agree with Jo on the health issues, WCS have much tighter eyes and i havent had any experience of WCS with en/intropian, but had a few at class that have had. aslo temprement is very different. say not more!

Tighter eyes maybe but that doesn't mean they don't have eye problems - I have heard of entropion in working bred dogs and also personally know one (a rescue dog we fostered a while back) with multiocular eye defects (not yet on Schedue A but a Schedule B condition for Cockers). The problem is these issues remain unseen and unmonitored because so few breeders of working strain dogs test for anything. Also gone are the days when this strain was solely in the hands of dedicated working people - pups are now being bred by people with no interest in working and for profit only (with the increased popularity of working strain dogs as pets) and that's where things can go wrong health-wise. Just as in the show strain, where many pups continue to be produced for profit by people who don't care (and certainly don't health screen) but who have nothing to do with the show world.

> The problem is these issues remain unseen and unmonitored because so few breeders of working strain dogs test for anything.

In the time I have been in my breed we oloy had three cases of PRA, yet when the prcd-PRA DNA test became available a very high number where found to be carriers and sadly some other affected (but not showing signs yet as it is late onset).

Looking at the latest BRS for cockers, there are thankfully few affected prcd-PRA, but again, more carriers than you would anticipate.   Of course, we don't know how many tested are show and how many are working, but as Jane so rightly says, many of the working cockers are regrettably not health tested .    Don't get me started on this one.......       

The problems with pointers and cockers (and everything else, but especially the hunting breeds) both always boils down to poor breeding combined with lack of correct training.     It's just that an incorrectly trained large dog could potentially be more of a liability than an incorrectly trained smaller dog.

Incidentally, my working cockers never need stripping out - they are low maintenance as far as the coat is concerned.   But high maintenance as far as brain work is concerned!

Jo

> Of course, we don't know how many tested are show and how many are working

You can often get an indication from the well known kennel names.

When people say 'far ranging' what sort of distance do you mean? Just something I've always wondered.

Think, "white dot on the horizon" and you get the idea!

That explains the colouring then . . . so you can see them when they are dot sized!

exactly!!

our dog will get 1-2 hour off lead walk in the woods with a ball or something similar every morning, smalls walks to and from school 2-4 times a day and an evening walk/run on the lead, as well as lots of home stimulation and training. The reason i would rather a WCS is:

1) i would rather a cheeky/naughty small dog than large around the kids
2) i think the size of a WCS suits a 5 and 3 year old more than a large dog like a pointer
3) we go away for long weekends a lot to the country/sea and a wcs would fit in more to this than a pointer (size wise)

a handful of people seem to want to "steer" me away from getting a wcs but sure with the right breeder, parents, handling from pup, then training, exsercise and mental stimulation then the WCS would be the perfect match for us?

I can answer your 3 questions clearly

1) Cheeky/naughty SMALL dog is much harder to grab as it's doing a ninety mile an hour flyby over your sofa(containing your kids!!)
2) Small dogs are far more easier to fall over as opposed to just running into the side of a larger dog which seem to 'catch' the kids rather than trip them.
3) Your seaside weekends are going to consist of yelling from the beach at your WCS who is chasing birds/ferries/shadows miles out to sea and then spending the weekend with a smelly, stinky wet dog in a home that's not yours.

PS  I LOVE working spaniels and wouldn't be without one in my home!!lol. Welcome to the madhouse!
PPS Everyone you know or will ever meet will try and put you off WCS as they all know of a mental one but I think if you have the time and energy for a spaniel and put the hard work in with training when young, it pays off in sackloads.

I think you've answered your own question as even though everyone has steered you towards other breeds, you still want a WCS.  Go visit some breeders but remember they still need the same health tests as showlines.  And, personally, I'd steer away from puppies reared outside in kennels but that's just my preference.

Edited to add - Our WCS loves being outdoors all day long but if it's miserable or I'm in a rush, a half hour of ball throwing gets rid of excess energy just as well.  They don't need as much as you would think but you will need to work that brain!

Hi All,

Those of you that have a GSP would you mind telling me a little about yours?

1. Where did you get your GSP from?
2. What are the negs to your GSP (if any :-)
3. How do you exsercise your GSP?
4. How do you mentally stimulate your GSP?
5. What is he/she like at home once walked etc?
6. What is he/she like with other dogs and other cats at home?

Thank you so much

Sophie

Have you taken a moment to read our German Shorthaired Pointer Information? :)

yes thank you but i would like to hear first hand from owners, thank you though.

Not my breed - but one I admire.  Have a look at Barleyarch dogs, I meet dogs from this 'kennel' quite often at shows and I suspect this breeder would be a good one to answer some of your questions :)

Hi All,

Those of you that have a WCS would you mind telling me a little about yours?

1. Where did you get your WCS from?
2. What are the negs to your WCS(if any :-)
3. How do you exsercise your WCS?
4. How do you mentally stimulate your WCS?
5. What is he/she like at home once walked etc?
6. What is he/she like with other dogs and other cats at home?

Thank you so much

Sophie

Hi

We have two - the first pup we got from a gamekeeper, and started training from the start.     The second was bought in as an older bitch.

LOTS of plus marks for both as far as we're concerned, but we do lots of gundog work with them.   The first I trained myself - he's super fast to pick up new exercises, so you have to think your exercises through so they can't go (too far) wrong.      I try never to let him go more than about 15 - 20 yards from me, as give him and inch and he'll take a mile.     This meant keeping on a long line in the early days.  He's nearly 2 now.      Negative for him is that he has been slow to house train - maybe because he was reared in a kennel.

The older little bitch has been a delight from the word go.     Never properly trained, she picked up everything so quickly, even at 4  years old.     Never looked back.    Clean except for a few understandable mistakes while she was settling in.       No negatives at all with her, but she wouldn't be steady enough to trial at her age..

Both I try to give maybe 20 - 30 mins constructive training a day, and about an hour's walk besides.     They are quiet for a spell afterwards, but I guess would be up for another hour later if I wanted.       Quite manageable like that, though.     In the shooting season they are out all day 9.00 - 4.00.     They surely sleep well after that!!

Both are 500% with our other dogs, and others out walking - never had a problem.      Haven't got cats, if you have I guess like many other dogs, they need to be brought up with them.

Both have very easy maintenance coats - very shiny - I think that if you neuter cockers you get that rather unmanageable felt coat, but don't know anyone with a neutered working cocker.

Jo

Hope this helps.

1. Have had dogs from show kennels - Hillanhi / Barleyarch and bred my own
2. Negatives- can be prone to separation anxiety, very inteligent and they need mental occupation as well as physical excerise, need daily off lead excerise therefore need consistent reward based training from young age as when the hunt kicks in they can go deaf!
3. Off lead in open country/ wood/ beach
4. trained to work as gundogs - retrieving and controlled hunting.
5. Generally settled but when they all go into play mode it can be a mad house !!!! very affectionate and love Human company, hog the sofa etc.
6. Sociable characters BUT like all dogs this comes with correct socialisation. I have bred dogs that happily live with cats and chickens etc BUT again they grow up knowing the rules, my own dogs would chase cats and if caught would kill them. This is a much sought after trait in Germany where being preditor sharp is a requirement of field testing so without socialisation with cats most GSP would instinctively chase etc.

Why not try and come to Crufts on gundog day - Discover dogs will give you a chance to get up close and personal with WCS, GSP and English Pointers. there willbe working type spaniels a plenty around the Gamekeepers ring for you to chat too in addition to show cookers on DD stand.

thank you so much, i am going to be at crufts next friday to do just that. Another breed i like is the Border Terrier.

I am on DD on Friday with the kids, hope to have the Fire Sniffer dog with us for a while in the morning :)

thank you for all your posts, can anyone tell me is there a "show" and a "working" type of gsp? if so could someone tell me more about them? I have seen GSP with more pointy heads and pointers with squarer, more lab type heads? Does anyone know which lines carry these types?

thank you again.

There is no real divide between work and show in GSP, there are however subtle types difference across kennels, and off course poor examples of the breed around with untypical features. I will have bitch with a german import father, her daughter and two young dogs from typical old fashioned English lines at DD. The  type difference is easy to see.
You will also see a range of dogs on show from a variety of kernels in the breed ring. You can then establish which kennel has the look you prefer.