Hoping somebody might have some suggestions here as I am stumped. I cannot give too many details for all sorts of reasons (if anyone wants more exact details you can PM me but I cannot put much more publicly). I have been asked about a 13-14 week old pup that isn't settling in his new home unless he has humans with him at all times. This is not a pup I have bred, although it is a Malinois, and he is related to my dogs. I know both breeder and owner and stud dog owner too -oh and the owner of one littermate.

This pup is outgoing and friendly, loves people, was left unsold until now. Has been used to being left without humans at night and occasionally for short periods during the day, but has never been alone without littermates. Went to his new home just 2 days ago and there is already an adult Malinois bitch there, the two became friends straight away, played etc -fine. The problem is the pup isn't settling either at night or if left alone without humans during the day even for a few minutes. Even with humans in SIGHT behind a gate. Normally I would just say not to worry at all so soon, but apparently he is barking and howling so much, getting himself so worked up, that the adult bitch is getting totally stressed out to the point of now refusing to eat and essentially having turned into a shivering wreck -which she definitely wasn't before. I.e. she picks up on the pup's stress, whether she is with him or just can hear him. I have never in my life come across a pup that would NOT settle when left with a friendly adult dog that is fine to be left, so have no idea what to suggest.

I've never had this, and don't really know what to suggest but do feel for the new owners.

Would a DAP diffuser help calm things down until they can work on this? Just a thought, not really helpful, sorry.

It does seem very odd, perhaps she had a bad experience with the breeder?  Well socialised pups should be fine with another dog and even to be left - although I like them in my bedroom at night.

They should start with very small steps, stopping the terror and screaming to settle the adult... I'd start by having the pup sleep in the bedroom and not leave it in a room without humans.  Start by getting it slowly used to some distance before shutting the dog gate or going into an adjoining room.

It sounds like SA, even at his age - they need to build him up starting with just a few seconds on the other side of the gate.

I have heard of one case as bad - not as young but I don't think the dog was very old, less than a year I think.  The fosterer had to build up time as with any SA case but in seconds, starting literally at one second the other side of the gate - they did succeed in the end but it took a long time!

What about a Thunder Shirt or similar along with a DAP ?

Friend of mine had similar with a Springer pup breeders had never left the litter for long even sleeping beside them for much longer than usual as I remember it. She was nearly demented but it did sort out over time. Will ask her what worked for her.

Maybe the thunder shirt for the older bitch too, could it be the older bitch giving off the signals that are causing the pup distress, knowing how the breed can react to things it could be anything, especially if the pup didnt display this behaviour with the breeder (although i didnt see any mention of this?)

Would it be possible for someone to look after the older bitch for a few days, while the pup gets into a routine?

Thanks. Oh dear -separation anxiety does of course sound possible. No the pup showed no signs whatsoever with the breeder, was used to being without humans at night and occasionally for a couple of hours during the day, but always with littermates. (That's what is surprising me so much, that he didn't settle with another dog.) I will mention DAP and thunder shirts. Unfortunately (for reasons I cannot mention here) there is no way the bitch can be looked after by somebody else even temporarily.

I have never been a believer in letting pups cry, if they do not want the dog in the bedroom with them, then the best option is to stay down stairs on the sofa with the pup till it becomes more settled. This works much better for toilet training to, as when the puppy awakes you can just nip them out and then everyone can settle back to sleep.
It has only been with them a couple of days and it's whole world has suddenly just turned upside down, everything it knew from when it opened it's eyes has changed. The comfort of it's littermates and mother are no longer there.
I think you have to look at the situation through the pups eyes, and as it has already established a routine with the breeders the new owners will have to change to their own very gradually. A walk and a play session,feed and out to toilet before leaving the puppy with a filled kong and toys. Ideally leaving the pup when it is sleepy so it will not notice too much, and very carefuly building up the time the puppy is left alone.
  IMO the bitch is picking up on the pups distress, so if the pups can be settled then she will also settle, I would not seperate the bitch and the puppy but for safety when unsupervised, I would put the pup either behind a baby gate or in a cage, that way they can still see and smell each other.
All pups like human babies are different, I had two children, one slept six hours at night, the other we were lucky if we got two !! But both grew into very happy and healthy adults.
I would not see it as a negativity that this puppy is a little needy, it will probably be a dream to train when it is older as it is so into humans, the owners just need to take a bit of time and bond with the puppy and let it become acclimatixed with it's new home and family.
I like my sleep, so I would always go with the line of least resitance, don't care where they sleep as long as they sleep, if I get my sleep I can cope with whatever the day throws at me, and it is not fair on the puppy or the neighbours to leave a pup crying and getting into a highly stressed state.
Wish them luck and I hope they enjoy their new puppy, as they get into a routine and start to do a bit of traying, everything will start to fall into place I am sure.

could it be the older bitch giving off the signals that are causing the pup distress, knowing how the breed can react to things it could be anything, especially if the pup didnt display this behaviour with the breeder

I don't think she would be the sole reason, but I think it may be possible that the pup makes a lot of noise, gets her worried and then everything becomes much worse so a vicious circle.

I have never been a believer in letting pups cry, if they do not want the dog in the bedroom with them, then the best option is to stay down stairs on the sofa with the pup till it becomes more settled. This works much better for toilet training to, as when the puppy awakes you can just nip them out and then everyone can settle back to sleep.

Indeed this was exactly my thought to suggest the more I think about it -take pup upstairs, leave bitch downstairs as she is used to anyway. I will mention this.

Are they being walked together ?  little outings will help them to bond together, and the pup will be more inclined to settle on return, therefore not making as much noise. The more they do together, little sits, come stays the better, the pup will watch the older dog and learn from her.
Get them both out and about together, trips in the car etc. The owners could also be getting a bit stressed, so a bit of light releif, and keeping things as calm and as casual as possible will help.

Yes they are walked together -I've seen photos from a walk and they both look very happy then.

Sounds like things just need a bit of time, and everybody just needs to adapt to the new arrival, it is a big thing introducing a new pup, but dogs are very adapatable.
My bet would be that within a couple of weeks it will be like the pup has always been there.

Could there be something at the pups new home that is upsetting/unsettling it? Three examples I personally have experienced were going on holiday to a self catering cottage with a cat who was normally well behaved. In this cottage he ripped wallpaper off the wall attempting to escape (he was an indoor cat). Turned out their were bats in the attic!!
Have taken my dogs to self catering cottages in the highlands and they wouldn't settle on their own in the kitchen (which they would at home) - I think it was down to the wildlife outside so just ended up moving them into our bedroom where they we fine.
Also recall my cat getting spooked staying with the folks due to wind blowing down the chimney (I lived in a flat with no fireplace at the time).
I think there are lots of things we take for granted but can be strange and unsettling to animals when they first experience them.

Reply from my friend with the Springer

OMG  know that very well!!!

Can only suggest withdrawing very, very slowly, like keeping pup in cage next to person etc. like I did with Kirsty. Gradually move the cage further away also sleep downstairs with pup and withdraw gradually No point in following the usual line of 'leave it to yell' because it's obviously getting so worked up it gets past the point of no return.

HTH

Thanks Anne, appreciate it!

> No point in following the usual line of 'leave it to yell' because it's obviously getting so worked up it gets past the point of no return.

I'd agree here - you know what the breed is like - best to keep them under threshold because they can and will and do go over the top, and when they are in that mode they need calm handling (you see others thinking, why isn't she telling it off or giving it a good belt around the chops, lol).

Just 2 days is still so very new for pup and owner.  I'd agree with taking him upstairs at night, give the bitch a rest from the 'ear assault' and just work on boosting the confidence of both dogs with time and attention.  Even during the day they should allow the pup to fall asleep in their company and gradually move away whilst he is sleeping or put him into his crate when he is very tired and stay next to him whilst he nods off.  I practically move into the kitchen and utility room when I've had young puppies.  My cupboards are never so tidy...

It does sound as if they expected too much too soon and have forgotten what horrors some pups can be.  My last pup was a shouter - my OH was hatching plans to leave the pup and I on the hard shoulder on our 4 hour journey home from the breeder!! :)

My last pup was also a persistent singer! She loved the sound of her own voice once she got going!
I agree with dogs a babe. If the older bitch were out of the equation, no one would be surprised that this new pup was getting distressed when alone especially as they have only him 2 days. The pup is clearly already more strongly bonded with humans than other dogs which is why the nanny effect with the existing bitch is not working and in my opinion that isn't a bad thing. I always train new pups seperately to existing dogs as I hope it can help prevent over attachment later in life. The real problem here is not the singing pup but the fact that the existing bitch is getting very distressed by some aspects of the new arrival and so normality should be preserved as much as possible and the pup settled away from her. The bedroom plan sounds like the best idea.

If the older bitch were out of the equation, no one would be surprised that this new pup was getting distressed when alone especially as they have only him 2 days.

Exactly -it's her that is the main problem even though none of it is her fault. It's also very important that she isn't set back in her training. She's not just a pet dog.

Well they slept downstairs on sofa with pup last night and apparently he spent all night pacing and whining despite that. :(

Has the pup been checked over by a vet ?

Does the pup have bedding that smells of its old home, the way younger pups do?

They've just decided to give up, pup is going back. Oh well.

That's a shame, but it might be for the best. Poor pup'll be awfully confused by all the upheaval though.

Thats a shame. Have any of the other pups in the litter had problems settling in?

No the others that have gone have been fine, but of course left a bit earlier.

Sorry they have given up so quickly on this pup, I would have brought it in bed with me and cuddled it till it settled down and felt more secure.

My new bitch 10months old when she arrived a month ago slept in bed with me for the first 2 weeks, now she happily sleeps in a puppy pen with the other dachsies in my bedroom, I always worry when bringing in an older dog/pup how they will settle in but this routine has worked 3 times now.

Sorry they have given up so quickly on this pup, I would have brought it in bed with me and cuddled it till it settled down and felt more secure.

They actually tried this too last night when he didn't settle, not even that worked. And it's a huge pup judging by photos I've seen so not the easiest thing to do.

So sad, how is he going to be going to yet another home, is anyone going to take him on with his history?

So sorry to hear that they have been unable to cope. I agree with others that it is more difficult when the puppy leaves the litter a bit older.
Sometimes it can take up to two weeks for a puppy to settle, I can understand that when you are not getting your sleep it makes things hard, but a few days is a very short time.
My Springer Spaniel was very like this pup when she first came, and she used to do the wall of death round the living room every night about 7pm. I had to do lots with her during the day, not let her sleep too long and we used to go for a short walk followed by a bit of training to tire her mentaly as well as physicaly, and I swaddled her tightly in a blanket and held her close till she went to sleep.
Hope the pup finds a nice forever home soon.

Sounds like breeder needs to do some more socialising with this dog. Pup needs to go gto other houses without other dogs at all and be left there for up to 4 hours whilst he learns humans can provide comfort too.

Everywhere he goes other dogs are involved so it's possible humans are literally on the side lines of his perception and just part ofthe scenery and he's not fully bonding with people. So seperate out from other dogs almost force the bonding with humans then a program of taking him up to bed and cuddles would work.

He also needs complete vet check but I doubt anything will turn up he's just been left too late in litter/mother bond and is struggling to adapt. Less dog,more human treat bonding shold switch it.

Just wondered how is puppy getting on now he is back with the breeder?

Kate -don't know yet as he couldn't come back until this evening. Nothing changed in the extra time he ended up getting. Interestingly though a litter brother, been treated exactly the same of course, went to HIS new home yesterday and he slept through the night without a single problem. That home too had one other dog. They even expected noise but got none. WEIRD!!!

Mali's are weird! :) Hopefully he will settle down once he is returned.

> Pup needs to go gto other houses without other dogs at all and be left there for up to 4 hours whilst he learns humans can provide comfort too.
>
>

It's not that he can't cope without canine company and isn't interested in humans it's he can't cope without the human constant presence even when there is a dog, even though of course he did at the breeders.

But pup would not settle even when in owners bedroom!! So humans don't help!!

Has not formed any coping mechansiums and as GSD would also worry has issues with dopamine receptors. Common in this breed unable to uptake dopamine so unable to relax, although I still think pup is unsocialised and needs to be alone with humans more not less ifhe is unable to settle with presence of humans. 

> Has not formed any coping mechansiums

HHGirl Sounds a bit melodramatic!  I'd put my money on the owners lack of coping skills and misreporting the 'new puppy' behaviours they were seeing :)  It was only 2 days after all and if they allowed him to get too distressed it's no wonder he struggled to settle...

Let's hope the breeder can sort out a new home without too much delay for this puppy

> Has not formed any coping mechansiums and as GSD would also worry has issues with dopamine receptors.

OP has said this is a Malinois, not a GSD, unless this is the case for both breeds?

Sorry my mistake but can be seen in several breeds of dogs.

And at 14 weeks ofage I would hope to see apuppy learning to cope with life not being melodramatic if it cannot cope with a change of environment at this age big trouble is brewing a head bearing in mind that this is the dog's most pliable age and stage of life. I see a future nervous aggressive barker all signs point to it.   

if it cannot cope with a change of environment at this age big trouble is brewing a head

Personally I don't even contemplate selling a Mali pup at this age -it's too late for the breed. But not everyone will have a choice as it's not possible to keep several (as in more than two) from the same litter and this breeder had several left, and as the LITTERBROTHER (like I said before!) coped just fine being sold THE SAME WEEK, I'd still say it was odd. This wasn't a litter stuck outside in a kennel somewhere! Reared indoors with people, other dogs, visitors of all ages, been on car journeys, walks, training classes etc, as well as being used to being left alone for short periods now and then. Plus the MAIN point is being forgotten here: had this pup been going to a home with no other dogs, or with a different dog acting differently, I don't think for a moment that the new owner would have given up so easily. But the pup was stressing the adult bitch out so much she stopped eating for days and lost weight, regressed in all sorts of areas, and THIS was the reason for giving up.