This question is not about Assured breeders.
What checks are made on the breeder/sire/dam/pups before a litter can be advertised on the KC web-site ?
Thanks.

They need to be registered with the KC, the litter not be from parents under or over a certain age, too closely bred ( as determined by the KC), an acceptable colour as per their database, not being whelped in the same 12 months as a prior litter -   and now not be the product of a third cesarian section...thats it.

> and now not be the product of a third cesarian section.

Oh - that's good, but is it just down to honesty on the part of the breeder ??

but is it just down to honesty on the part of the breeder ??

Not really, those items the KC would not know anyway would in most cases be reported by someone in the breed as there are always those who are keeping an eye on what others are doing for reasons good or not, in this case it is helpful.

Well age limits (mated over a year of age and whelped under 8) and whether parents are parent and offspring or full sibling is on the database.

The 12 months between litters only applies to those who are required to be licensed under the breeding and sale of dogs welfare Act, so those breeding five or more litters, which is the other thing the database will throw up.

Oh and of course the parents must not have their papers endorsed 'progeny not eligible for registration'.

You can only place the advert at the same time as you register the litter, it is done on the same form/same web page, so if the litter is accepted so is the ad. Non AB pay for the ad, ABs do not.

Thanks for your replies.
When I phoned and asked if DNA for PRA had been done, it hadn't as she has been breeding this line for years and has never had a problem but she kindly pointed out that I could have the pup done in the future.
Horse and stable door comes to mind !

> and now not be the product of a third cesarian section

It's a bit more restrictive than that, as a 3rd litter from a dam who has already had 2 cesarian sections will not be registered at all, whether it was born naturally or not.

> It's a bit more restrictive than that, as a 3rd litter from a dam who has already had 2 cesarian sections will not be registered at all, whether it was born naturally or not.

To be honest that makes more sense than what was originally thought, as otherwise you might have a breeder risking a third litter hoping for a natural whelping, and then unable to register the litter, so two C sections and no more pups seems right to me,.

One section a bitch should be allowed a second chance, as after all not all C sections are due to hereditary issues, but often a malpresentation.  I have had two bitches with C sections, but fortunately in both cases it was their third and last litters, so I knew they were natural whelpers, but had either had a C section for their first litter, then I would have liked the chance to prove things one way or another as it might effect future breeding decisions for any offspring.

I agree Barbara, depending on the cause for the first c/section and how she coped I too would like a second chance, I only realised recently that future natural births after 2 c/sections would not be registered, not that I would put a bitch through another pregnancy due to greater risk of rupturing one or both uterine horns which are stretched quite thin any way.

can i ask.how does the kc know if the bitch has delivered naturally or not?i mean whos to say they had a section but have registered the litter as natural?or am i missing something?
I read the rules when we all got the new e mail update and totally agree with the new rules but unless the breeder actually tells the kennel club when registering the litter how are they to 'actually' know....

> unless the breeder actually tells the kennel club when registering the litter how are they to 'actually' know....

The question is now asked on registration form/online, and breeders/owners agree that vets are supposed to report any operations that alter conformation (and now C sections), so the breeder would have to be lying.

I think the KC to some extent are relying on the fact that the BVA/RCVS (so Vets) are against repeated C sections, they would have liked to see no litter allowed after one section.

I suppose it does give a vet more to stand on if they advise their client they should not breed again.

I think the KC to some extent are relying on the fact that the BVA/RCVS (so Vets) are against repeated C sections, they would have liked to see no litter allowed after one section.

I suppose it does give a vet more to stand on if they advise their client they should not breed again.

Not quite the same, but just wanted to pick up on this point as I think it is very true. I had to have a c-section carried out on a queen this week, thankfully first time for years. One of the first things the vet asked was if she should spay her at he same time. I said no as the cause for it wasn't known and I want more info before making a decision like that, but I think it shows that vets often are likely to tell breeders that after one section there should be no more litters. I have no doubt this vet would have been happier if I had agreed, but she didn't press the point. Had there been a similar rule for cats as for dogs, I bet she would have mentioned it.

I don't think my vet even knows the KC names of my dogs. They are registered under their pet names. She has never asked for any more detail

> She has never asked for any more detail

You might find they do now if they have a mind to assist in this new ruling :). 
Of course a breeder could decline to tell them but the vet will have their name and address so, I suppose, they could contact the KC anyway.

>They are registered under their pet names. She has never asked for any more detail

They don't need to. All the vet needs to tell the KC is that a dog of XXXX breed owned by Mr/Mrs ZZZZ had a litter by c-section on such-and-such a date, and the KC will know when Mr/Mrs ZZZZ registers a litter born at around that date.

If any health tests are done then the vet will know, there are a few breed who do not test at all but not that many.

Since they have had hips done there and blood drawn for Optigen, then she could easily find out. Although, since I have no secrets, she could ask me haha

will vets know which dogs are KC registered or will they tell them of every c-section?  What happens if the registries don't all join in... eg if ISDS don't comply and KC have an obligation to register all ISDS registered dogs?  Will the vets know which register a dog is on?  What if unscrupulous people go to different vets to their normal vet, perhaps using a pseudonym?  Actually I think the only way will be to use microchip information - and that when it becomes compulsory for each dog to be microchipped the vet will simply scan each dog and check if it needs to be 'reported'.  No sane person would put a bitch through more than 2 c-sections I wouldn't have thought but I'm sure there are a lot of unscrupulous people who don't consider their bitch's health :-(

I'm sure vets have been recommending to their clients not to put their bitches through c-sections but people will find a way around.  Of course it may simply drive them away from the KC

> One of the first things the vet asked was if she should spay her at he same time

I have only had one c section (or rather my dogs have) but my vet discussed spaying but she said it would be much safer to just deliver the pups and then spay later when the uterus had returned to normal. I have heard other people being offered spays when doing c sections . Just wondered if anyone else had come across this as it meant my girl had to go through 2 operations rather than one.

my bitch had an emergency c section and they speyed at the same time.but then i was told it was needed so there you go.wasnt upset that they told me AFTER as i was more worried about her and her babies.....all 13 of them!!!

anyways,i still think people wont bother.if my vet asked me is she/he kc registered? im telling you now even though theyve seen iv bred and my girls are regularly in for before and after checks if i said NO my vet would belive me!!
wether she liked it or not i dont think she'd check...

ive known my vets a really long time and i have no doubt that although i know i do not and will never know everything about it but i knew more about a bitches cycle and pregnancy than the vets nurse/assistant! i was having a bitch scanned and she was saying things i know that are utter rubbish...what worried me is shes allowed to give out advise to others!!
now,you'll get your good vets and your i just need your money vets,unless people are totally honest they'll never police it!
BUT OH HOW I WISH THEY WOULD/COULD.

> No sane person would put a bitch through more than 2 c-sections I wouldn't have thought but I'm sure there are a lot of unscrupulous people who don't consider their bitch's health :-(
>
>

The KC puppy farming film on youtube shows a chocolate Labrador bitch who had the scars from 4 C sections!!!  Poor bitches belly was somewhere round her knees.

> I have heard other people being offered spays when doing c sections . Just wondered if anyone else had come across this as it meant my girl had to go through 2 operations rather than one.

On the two occasions one of mine had a C section it was their last litter, and I requested if it was safe, to spay them at the same time as I had planned to have them spayed when pups were 12 weeks, and would prefer them not to have two operations.

if my vet asked me is she/he kc registered? im telling you now even though theyve seen iv bred and my girls are regularly in for before and after checks if i said NO my vet would belive me!!

I doubt my vets would believe something like that, as they know full well we show. And of course they will know from hip scoring and similar too! Thankfully my vets are very good with breeders and certainly the owner knows a bit about how it all works. They always ask how we did at Crufts.

i was just saying in general.they know theyre registered cos we talk but im saying if it was a question they had to ask and knowing how well we get on im saying she'd have no reason to question me.
i was saying about others if they wanted to lie not myself..just to be clear ;-)

There are always those breeders who will get round any rules and regulations set by the KC, if they get found out then they should be banned from registering future litters with the KC.

I think I read the c/sections are in the BRS each quarter so someone who knows your pups were born by c/section and you haven't declared it could report you to the KC.

I wondered about spaying routinely[not as the only option to save the bitches life] at time of c/section whether it interferes with the milk coming in or not? Or will what ever labour they had pre c/section be enough to trigger the let down of milk?

That is awful to have put that Lab through so many c/sections, she obviously had some physical problem as to why she couldn't deliver naturally and been retired after 2.[ Even humans are recommended to have no more than 3 with a 2 yr gap in between each]

I wondered about spaying routinely[not as the only option to save the bitches life] at time of c/section whether it interferes with the milk coming in or not?

No it doesn't.

Thanks Marianne.

> No it doesn't.

I can confirm it doesn't, the milk production is not controlled primarily by the Ovaries, but by the release of Prolactin by the Pituitary I believe.