Some one I was chatting to has got a bitch, the bitch is well bred and from well known lines.  She is now almost 12 months old but has 1 misplaced lower canine ( bottom right ) it is up to the pallet, not causing her any problem and has not peirced the pallet.  The bitch is 'nice' , moves beautifully etc on the whole a good prospect for them.

What impact will this have on her show carear, it's disapointing I guess to them but as she is actually a rather nice bitch, is it worth just taking it on the chin and doing what you wanted with this bitch, eg showing and eventually subject to breed health testing using her as a foundation bitch.

I can't advise, I am not a judge, breed specialist or a breeder even.

But I wonder how this would be looked on though, she's a nice bitch YES she would be a wonderful foundation bitch YES however there is this one 'thing' that will at times be noticed by some and not by others, just to add at this point the bitches 'bite' is actually correct (scissor)  is it the end of the world...? is it REALLY THAT detrimental to the breed...?

This of course without doubt would HAVE to be taken into consideration if they do breed from her, eg not using a stud with the same problem or any mouth problems for that matter.

You know what it's like everybody see's things differently, but what is the general thoughts...? i mean should a 'nice' 'well bred' 'well tempered' 'sound'& 'healthy' bitch displaying good breed standard be cut from a breeding line just becasue of this..?? or can you accept it and just do everything you can from that point to breed from dogs with good strong mouths to hopefully not produce this again. But how common is this, I guessing there not allone in this and many a breeder will have produced dogs along the way with this problem.

I would think there are many more much worse things for a breeding dog to carry..

Bad mouths are notoriously difficult to breed out, so although on the face of it (no pun intended!) it seems a minor problem, from a breeding point of view it's quite major.

It really does depend on the breed, in ours if the bite is correct then we consider the dog will be able to eat and leave it at that but in some breeds they seem to count the teeth so if it is one of those breeds it will matter.

From my personal point of view providing the head and jaw are correct and to the standard, the dogs mouth is not over or under shot (if a scissor is called for) & it appears the dog can eat and a missed placed tooth will not effect either the dogs health or cause it to fail in its work then I would consider it of minor importance to the general conformation, temperament and movement. Not everyone will agree with me and if it comes to a choice between two dogs of equal merit then the one with the correction dentition will win even under me.

As to using for breeding again it depends on just how good the bitch is otherwise, if very good then I would be inclined to take a litter to see if the problem is passed on, if it is then call a halt to breeding from that line if not then it could just have been one of those things.

obviously its not a perfrect mouth because of this but wondering is it acutally a BAD mouth ? everything is correct apart from the 1 misplaced canine. 

I imagine there are many a breeder out there that breed from dogs with worse mouths.

Would it be better to breed from a bitch that isn't showing the same quality overall and is perhaps more 'pet' than anything..?

The standard's only mention bite's, does this include the canines..?

I have told them to speak to someone important in the breed about it but they are bothered about people chit chatting and bitching about it and just having a go etc, which is very possibly as the breed fraternity can sometimes enjoy uneciserily ( spelling ) try and put new people off, especially when the have something that isn't substandard and actually could do okay, and this would be a great opotunity for them to do it.

I agree with Jeangenie. There are a lot of things that I would overlook in a bitch, regarding being a good foundation bitch, because some traits can be easily improved in a couple of generations, by carefully choosing the right studs and what you keep from a litter.
Having said this, a bad mouth isn't one of them.

it isnt a massive problem in the breed however it has been added to the breed watch thing, and i have seen the odd mention of it in write ups, one a stud that has been use by a very influential breeder who is hot on health..? they have this in there line then..?? hummm it's a toughy.

the bitch is from good established european lines, and from what i gather they are big on mouths and they CANNOT show a dog with a misplaced lower canine, but we can 'get away with it' over in the UK, or so I was told.

if it was me i have no idea what i would do, just ride it out or be devastated...?

If it is on the breed "watch" list then I would not use a bitch or dog that was effected with the problem as that can only add to the breeds problem.

In the UK there is no disqualifying fault.

I guess different breeds have different takes on mouth faults.

From a gundog perspective YES I would consider this a bad mouth I.e. it is not correct dentition, placement / bite. In the show ring from my experience in gundogs this would be a major fault and in the main would be judged accordingly. As a judge I have a very low tolerance for incorrect mouth.

As for breeding personally I would never breed from a animal with incorrect mouth, the trait is inherited and even if the one kept has a good mouth it's in the genes to pop up again down the line. It is soul distorting to have a beautiful youngster and have the mouth develop incorrectly. I no long have males but I would never let  my boys mate bitches with incorrect mouths, so finding studs may be a difficulty  - again I guess it depends on the breed and it tolerance of mouth faults.

I agree also that a fault in mouth would really put me off, i feel its not taken seriously enough and i wish in our breed it was, people are obsessing in ours over patella scores yet no worry that alot of them have no teeth left by 7.

Why are they loosing their teeth by 7, are they rotting or is it to do with the construction of the mouth. If rotting that is not the fault of genes unless the dogs have faulty enamel or some such but if it is just bad husbandry that is easy to address where as slipping patella is a construction fault and needs addressing by more careful breeding.

No i dont think its anything to do with husbandry, its something to do with the way they are rooted in the jaw bone, were not talking filthy teeth were talking normal teeth just coming out till before you know it they are toothless. Thats not to say i think patellas arnt a problem i grade all mine but i think people lose sight of other important areas when obsessing over others, and only being able to eat mush at 7 to me is a problem.

Did this dog keep her baby canines for longer than is normal and that is why the adult one is displaced?

I had a bitch who kept her baby canines till she was nearly 3yrs old, then suddenly one day they were gone and gradually the gap closed up and you wouldn't have known there had ever been a problem.

not to my knowledge, the bitch is almost 12 months and doesn't have any retained ones now.  she's probably unlucky, I wonder what they will do it's not easy for them. they really wanted a nice foundation, which they have, this however put a cloud over it.

No i dont think its anything to do with husbandry, its something to do with the way they are rooted in the jaw bone, were not talking filthy teeth were talking normal teeth just coming out till before you know it they are toothless. Thats not to say i think patellas arnt a problem i grade all mine but i think people lose sight of other important areas when obsessing over others, and only being able to eat mush at 7 to me is a problem.

If there is a hereditary problem with the breeds teeth then yes, it is something that requires attention but I still think the patella is more importing and a toothless sound hound is IMO slightly better than a unsound dog with all its teeth.

not to my knowledge, the bitch is almost 12 months and doesn't have any retained ones now.  probably unlucky, and wonder what they will do. not easy for them.

Retention of the baby canine teeth is a common problem particularly in some breeds (the Yorkie springs to mind) and should be watched and dealt with - it is likely to be a hereditary problem but one that can be overcome with care and attention when the animal is a pup. Of course, it would be best if it did not occur but again IMO it is one of the lesser problems and should only be dealt with when more major construction and internal organ malfunction have been solved and bred out, then we can worry about things like dentistry and the retention of teeth or as is suggested weak roots.

I'd like mine to have good teeth and good patella, its a pain in the bum having to mush food for pooches :-)

that's my thinking really, overall the bitch has so much to offer them as a foundation.  i guess if they did breed from her some people will not like it and others perhaps wont worry over it too much.  They have to make sure they really consider this when breeding her and take the back lash and move on and hope that it wont become a problem in there line, it could be a one off , she is all european breeding and wouldn't expect it to be an issue in the lines as all her sire and dams and beyond are all shown and some to really GREAT sucess. that said how many puppies go to pet homes and have this issue and it's never noticed by the owners, litter mates along the way have still been bred from ..!!!!

in an ideal world we all want to have perfect dogs, that's why people breed, to try and get that, there will always be 'something' that needs attention, and different people have very different feelings about different issues. just don't want them losing sight and giving up before they start.

thank you

I'd like mine to have good teeth and good patella, its a pain in the bum having to mush food for pooches :-)
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Well yes, I would like all dogs and people to have good sound conformation, excellent temperament, good health, teeth and type, but until this is possible I hope the most important life enhancing things are dealt with first. Those things that cause pain, make movement or life difficult or miserable and lets deal with the more cosmetic matters after. Naturally dogs, and people should have sound perfectly formed teeth but they don't and we have to deal with the results of faulty dentistry as it occur until such times we can produce the perfect dog and child.

gets me think deeper, if one puppy in a litter presents with problems said to be inherited, should all the litters mates be struck off also or just the affected, do they not all still have the same genes and tendency to produce this issue...???

well if thats the case in our breed patella issues only become a major problem after grade 3, most can live pain free with no affect on movement and i can gaurantee many in the ring have at least 1/1, it should all be taken with a measured aproach, although i believe its easier to correct a bad patella than to replace a whole set of teeth and i dont really consider it to be a cosmetic issue, not being able to chew a bone is probably quiet a miserable thing for a dog.

Btw im not saying i don't agree with you jackie my point being that if you focus purely on one thing you miss other things and they start to creep in and become a bigger problem than the first thing.

Thank you Jackie i will print this off for them to read over.  it's certainly NOT ideal , however she isnt just a pet bred bitch she is of quality breeding and it would be a big shame to dismiss her completley for this. now if her 'bite' was also out or both lower canines ere affected then i would think different.

I personally wouldn't breed a bitch with a bad mouth, mal alignment of teeth can cause real issues and require remedial dentistry. European judging is definately more rigorious than uk on mouth BUT breeders still produce poor mouths in Europe.

I personally follow up pups bred at about 12mths and try to establish if there are any failing or deviations to standard that have shown in the litter as a whole. Each pup is not genetically identical but I consider how other pups have turned out in a litter when considering breeding on as they may share genetic traits. With regards to mouth IME the does seem to be familial tendencies with certain kennels having greater incidence than others, one in the line, as others have said, it is difficult to remove. If a sibling has a bad mouth I guess the wise thing to do is be aware, consider the possibility that your bitch may carry the gene and breed to a line where mouth issues do not occur thus reducing risk of prodcing a pup with a copy of two defective genes.

>if one puppy in a litter presents with problems said to be inherited, should all the litters mates be struck off also or just the affected, do they not all still have the same genes

No - each puppy gets a different set of genes; a random half of its sire's genes and a random half of its dam's.

theoretically you could have two siblings with no genes in common both having received a totally different half of the parents genes.  Though this is most unlikely as both parents are likely to have some genes in common.

> theoretically you could have two siblings with no genes in common both having received a totally different half of the parents genes.

Ha! Just like me then - my sister inherited my dad's teeth (very strong, had his first ever filling at age 40 and never needed false teeth); whereas I got my mother's - weak, crumbly and no end of trouble!

I see..! so much for them to think about.

I know one stud has sired a litter in this breed and he has a misplaced lower canine, its been mentioned in write ups, but still a big named breeder of long established lines has used him and another long astablished breeder big on HEALTH and correct breeding etc has a dog from the litter sired.  So I guess the breed fraternity can't really hold it against others can they...?

understand the genes thing, some of the puppies not affected could possibly pass it on though even though not directly affectd, especially if mated to a dog not affected but siblings had been..?

its mind blowing really..

Having long established lines it's quite different. You have the luxury that if it doesn't work, you can cut it from your breeding program, and carry on.

In this case, you are talking about a foundation bitch. If (when) the problem resurfaces a couple of generations down the line, it's already all over your breeding, and you have to start from scratch.