An interesting article about the cost of puppies http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/17/how-much-is-that-doggie-in-the-window-the-surprising-economics-of-purchasing-a-purebred-puppy/

I wonder if anyone can explain why only journalists seem to favour the word 'pooch' ?

I like the first page (explaining why it's better to go to a reputable breeder for a puppy) but thought his cost figures on page 2 were way over the top. And surely he would have insured his pup if he had gone to a good breeder and paid so much for her, so why the high vet bill for the sock removal? If he hadn't insured her, the article would have provided a good opportunity to mention it.

> And surely he would have insured his pup if he had gone to a good breeder and paid so much for her,

Actually Pet Insurance is not as commonly used in the USA.  On a breed list I am on few people had ever heard of it until the last year or two.

Here is the article preceding showing why he bought his Golden pup and about his previous dog from the pound.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/14/westminster-show-dog-and-the-battle-over-purebred-puppies/

Speaking of pet insurance, I tried the Kennel Club's insurance for a quote today. It was advertised with a KC Reg Cert that came back for one of my other dogs so thought I'd give it a try. First thing was they don't recognise KC Activity Reg No.s on the computer so had to ring them. I liked the fact that they cover breeding conditions as an optional extra and you only add on the bits you want (eg I didn't want the holdiay cancellation cover, cover for boarding kennels etc). Their quote for my just turned 3 year old Collie bitch who has never had any vet treatment was ..........£68 per month!! Yikes! I told them I had the exact same cover (apart from the breeding bit) with John Lewis for a year old collie male and that is only £15 per month.

> 3 year old Collie bitch who has never had any vet treatment was ..........£68 per month!!

Both dogs are insured with the KC since pups, the renewal came in last month for the eldest (almost 8) at £48 a month!

his cost figures on page 2 were way over the top

Don't forget he is talking about NYC vets. I worked for a practice over there in the mid 1980s and they were scary money then. Insurance premiums must be unaffordable by now especially for people with multiple pets.

>Insurance premiums must be unaffordable by now especially for people with multiple pets.

While my own vet knows that my dogs are uninsured, if I see another vet, the question always arises.  When they ask if I have insurance, my question is always the same.  Have you noticed how many dogs I have?

I work a 42 hour week and my monthly salary is not high enough to insure!  :-)  I earn far too little to cover it!  :-)

It wasn't just vet costs - the figures for things like baby gates and the petrol running round picking up various things was just plain stoopid imo.

Remember that is US dollars not sterling £, and probably posh pet shops and distances may be greater, and gas guzzling cars.

I have paid over £500 over weeks and weeks of getting an ear infection sorted (not something common in my prick eared breed).

A friend recently imported a puppy from that area of the USA and veterinary costs for just vaccinations (they do 3 or four separate visits for primary vaccinations and Rabies) chipping etc, not the blood tests for Pet passport came to over $500 and the final vet health certificate over $200.

I paid over $100 to have the pet Passport stamped with the tick and tape worm medication, and pronounce my bitch fit to fly, I used my own meds.

So the vets fees of $1000 does not surprise me especially if the dog was kept in.

Thanks for the article Brainless. Made for good reading imo.
It highlighted the reason for a good breeder, but it also highlighted some of the things required when having a dog and expenses that may never of been thought of, like fencing etc..

Marisa:
As for baby gates, I have a few and they are worth their weight in gold, so why not price them in and as for fuel? Well how many breeders seemingly calculate this into the equation when travelling to shows and then passing down on the price of their puppies? Right or wrong the cost of fuel isn't cheap and if extra journeys are made because of the dogs then its an addition to having dogs. 

I buy my baby gates and some other doggy stuff from Fleabay so they are cheaper than in the shops and if I need something for the dogs (eg their raw food, a visit to the vet etc) you can be sure I will run other chores whilst I am out. It always amazes me when the cost of dog ownership is given in the thousands (whether dollars or stirling), all sensational stuff to sex up the advert. Same as how they say it costs tens of thousands of pounds to raise a child. It wouldn't if it were my child lol.

marisa, I'm not sure why you are knocking this article or the prices given.  The authors point that "the cost of raising a dog can ...quickly  ...outstrip the initial purchase price of the puppy" is a very valid one and often overlooked by the 'I want a puppy now' people who can be tempted by puppy mills or farms.

So what if he over egged the prices a bit (although they seemed pretty reasonable to me, even in $'s !!),  I have one dog that has cost me his purchase price in insurance fees alone every year.   Anything that urges potential purchasers to really consider the financial implications of buying a dog is good advice in my book.

Perhaps because, as a fellow journalist, I like articles to be accurate not ramped up so they make more exciting reading. No one would bother with an article that says you don't need to spend a fortune to raise a dog properly but start quoting thousands and eyebrows get raised.

And yes, I'm aware from personal experience that an ill dog can cost thousands in vet fees, but that's not his main point is it? And, to be honest, although Tag has cost the insurance company thousands with his Epilepsy, in 30 years of dog ownership he has been the exception not the rule.

> I like articles to be accurate not ramped up

As I previously said - I don't think his figures are unreasonable or excessively 'ramped up', other than the fact he's paying New York Metropolitan prices.  I've certainly paid prices like that.  However nowadays (with each new dog) I don't have the initial outlay that was necessary for my first dog, I have plenty of crates, gates, puppy collars etc that I've saved and our current garden was puppy proofed several years ago...

> I'm aware from personal experience that an ill dog can cost thousands in vet fees, but that's not his main point is it?

I mentioned my insurance fees not vet fees BUT his point is this:  "the cost of raising a dog can ...quickly  ...outstrip the initial purchase price of the puppy"

And he's right :)

Something to remember also is that most US houses are built without fences between each property, it is up to the new owners to fence if allowed.

Suburban houses are often built on half acre plots, so that is a fair expense to fence.  Unfenced yards are very common.

I don't dispute that the cost of raising a dog 'may' outstrip what you paid for it (esp when you can buy a collie from £50 upwards) but I still think his figures are excessive, that's my opinion you have yours. Also, Brainless, we have had to fence from new both of the last properties we lived at. Our new place is 1.3 acres and it cost about 7.5k to do it but I wouldn't put it down as a dog expense. We would still have had it done regardless as who wants joe public being able to see in and stroll around whenever they feel like it?

> We would still have had it done regardless as who wants joe public being able to see in and stroll around whenever they feel like it?

You would think wouldn't you, but yet huge numbers of US houses have no fencing.

Different things are the norm in different countries

A thread on the subject that may give insight to varying attitudes and accepted practise: http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?42657-Fenced-or-unfenced-yards

Thsi post is from a NY resident (where the writer is):

"I think both of these observations are spot-on for Upstate NY. Fencing tends to be utilitarian: keep pets (or farm animals if in rural areas) inside, keep kids out of pools, hide view of neighbor's perpetually under repair Plymouth Duster, etc. I'm one of only 2 homeowners on my block to have a fence -- because I have a dog -- and I opted for chain-link with black fabric which makes the fence virtually disappear. The open yards create a large, grassy area that's like a park -- and which the neighborhood kids use for football and soccer games with nobody (well, except my pup) caring all that much. Not all that much sense of territoriality here. "

Thanks for your smart discussion of my story, and I'm happy to clarify in any way that I can.

The major point of the article is to get people to think about the purchase price of a dog in the context of the often-considerable ongoing costs.

I initially had some "sticker shock" at the prices of puppies, but I'm very happy with the decision I made. Tessie's an amazing dog.

As far as the expenses, even I was a little surprised at how quickly they all added up, but I assure you they're pretty accurate. (I had actually compiled them for a discussion board post at the time so I'm not working from memory.)

My backyard is a little less than a quarter acre, and unlike many in my neighborhood, it's fully fenced (by the adjoining neighbors) except for the gate across the driveway.  I had a friend do it, and it still cost $1,300. If my yard was not fenced, this could have been a much bigger expense.

A crate here is about $80 and an X-pen was another $80 and I didn't account for the recycled gates I had left from my kids.
The emergency vet visits when she ate the sock, again, right on the money, about $900 for the emergency vet visit, and another $300 for an overnight stay at our regular vet. No, I didn't have pet insurance at the time--it is rather uncommon in the US--but I do have it now, and fortunately haven't had to use it.

And the mileage? We drove about 300 miles round trip to our breeder, and at 50 cents a mile our tax codes allows for deductions, that's $150. The puppy kindergarten was about 30 miles round trip, so 10 sessions was another 300 miles. That's not even including driving to the vets and the pet stores.

And the take home lesson is that even if you take out the cost of the gate and the emergency vet bills, these run-of-the-mill costs like food, vet visits and training classes added up to roughly what we paid our breeder. If you need to economize it probably makes more sense to buy cheaper dog food and a used crate than to skimp on the breeder who's done so much to insure the health and early socialization of your puppy.

FWIW, this is going to be a series about dog ownership. Today's post was about the problems with puppy mills.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/22/where-not-to-buy-a-dog-the-pet-store-connection-to-the-business-of-puppy-mills/

I just got done with a delightful interview with the fabulous trainer Ian Dunbar, and that piece will be up in the next few days.

Again, the goal of all this is to give people the information to make smart decisions about which dog to get, where to get it, and how to make the dog a well-socialized companion.

cheers
Allen

Thanks Allen for your personal input and I find it very refreshing that a journalist is writing about these matters. Any chance you can try and get your articles into a national paper in the UK? I think this will help open a few eyes here too.
I'm now going to keep an eye open for your article with Dr Ian Dunbar as I think he is brilliant!!

Welcome to the the champdogsforum Allen, you may enjoy looking around here, we have anything from first time posters to long time addicts, and so many people with vast experience in dogs in various spheres.

This forum tends to be tell it as it is, and discourage irresponsible breeding as opposed to some of the fluffy forums that seem to encourage thoughtless breeding, because fluffy is such a nice dog, and because they can.

The commercial side of champdogs where breeders can advertise is quite strict with the administration insisting on certain standards (usually what the breed clubs consider ethical re ages of bitches, frequency of litters and required health testing).

Something that might be worth investigating is the differences re responsible buying and breeding between English speaking countries where we seem to have a huge rescue and welfare issue with the majority of puppies produced by casual and commercial breeders, compared to the Scandinavian situation where rescue dogs are minimal, and people who breed are seriously involved in dogs, not just producing puppies.

In most Scandinavian countries routine neutering is not the norm and in fact illegal in some, except for therapeutic purposes.  So proving that sterilisation is not the answer to Pet overpopulation (in dogs at least), but responsible ownership.

If we could work out what the differences are regarding the general dog owning publics attitudes perhaps we could change things for the better in UK, USA etc.

Thanks Allen for your personal input and I find it very refreshing that a journalist is writing about these matters.

I second that. 

Can you imagine what a difference it would have made if a certain other journalist had taken this route rather than the  route taken?   Proves to me that the agenda with her is more about making a name, than educating the public and in the process making a big difference to the lives of dogs.

Would love to see this series printed in British papers.

Barbara (I feel I can't refer to you as Brainless!), that's very interesting about routine neutering not being the norm in Scandinavia. When I was growing up we didn't neuter my last family dog - a big gorgeous labrador. He passed away just under 3 yrs ago at 17. He was healthy until his last couple of months. I sometimes wonder did it make a difference or was he just lucky all round. eitherway, living with an un-neutered male was not an issue and he didn't try to hump or mark nor was he remotely aggressive.Just to add, most rescues in Ireland will not rehome a neutered/spayed dog to a family with an un-neutered dog now and i have seen long questionnaires which ask you to explain in detail why your dog is not neutered.

Thank you all for the warm welcome.
As you can see from my page at Forbes, I write about many things. As you can also see, the posts I wrote about puppies and dogs have been resoundingly popular. I find that particularly gratifying because this is an important issue. If a reader doesn't quite get it about Bruce Springsteen's new album or about Super Bowl ads, no real harm done. But  a mistake in selecting a dog can impact many lives for many years.
And I think there are few one-size-fits-all solutions in this world, and really none in something as complex as getting the right dog. If you want a rescue? Awesome, but go in understanding that the dog may need extra attention. Want a purebred instead? Fine, but find the right breeder. It won't cost you anything extra, and will probably save you money in the long run.
One of the few unequivocal evils is the puppy mill, and I think the best solution (as Barbara suggests in her mention of the Scandanavian countries) is an educated public.
While it would be lovely, I think it would be pretty much a long shot landing these pieces in a British paper--heck, it's a long shot here in the US where I do have a few connections.
That said, the next best thing is to share these links with your friends and fellow dog lovers and encourage them to do the same. Posting links is even better. (The links are below for your convenience.)

Do look out for the upcoming interview with Ian Dunbar. He stresses the importance of early socialization and the breeders role it in, among many other fascinating observations.

Here are the links you can share:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/14/westminster-show-dog-and-the-battle-over-purebred-puppies/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/17/how-much-is-that-doggie-in-the-window-the-surprising-economics-of-purchasing-a-purebred-puppy/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/22/where-not-to-buy-a-dog-the-pet-store-connection-to-the-business-of-puppy-mills/

and this one about our pet chicken

http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/20/how-do-you-turn-a-chick-into-a-puppy-the-true-story-of-our-special-needs-chicken/

Thank you for explaining the eye watering prices Allen. Think we're all on the same side, discouraging the casual/impulse purchase. The irony of dog insurance is that you once you have it......I will leave you to finish the sentence lol. I have dated Dr Dunbar and look forward to reading the links.

Hey guy's...I like him, can we keep him ? lol.

Allan what about setting up a FB page for your dog articles ? I've found it to be a great way of getting information out to a lot of people very quickly. I also wonder if the Dogs Today monthly magazine would be interested in picking up some of your stuff, they do have articles from freelancers as well as regular contributors.

I agree Celli, he has got to be a keeper.

Hello Allan, really enjoyed your articles. Lots of sense and of course my breed, so obviously very interested.

Hello to a fellow journalist. I write about dogs and dog folk.

Oh and I am not the 'She' referred to by other posters. I have a facebook group which I run with the Kennel club and the British Veterinary Association which you might like to see, for future reference if nothing else. :)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/170959846274011/

I do try to spread information which is helpful, particularly for people who are thinking of getting a pup or breeding from their dogs, hence the group on facebook.

I think Your Dog might be a better magazine to write for as it is very informative and more experienced dog folk seem to recommend it. Certainly all the dog clubs I have visited have said it is a good magazine to their members.

Marisa
As a poster noted earlier, I do live outside New York City where the general cost of living is higher. So, yes, the driveway gate and the vet visit might have been somewhat cheaper if I lived in Nebraska, but still hardly free.
The point is that writing  a check with three zeros to a breeder *feels* different than pulling out a credit card for a series of $40 and $80 purchases separated by a couple of weeks. (Cell phone companies make a lot of money on this, by "giving" you a new phone and then charging you $100 a month to use it.)

Polly/Alison/Celli
Thanks for the kind words and the ideas. The Facebook page is a good idea, and I'll think about those other magazines.

cheers
Allen

"Marisa
As a poster noted earlier, I do live outside New York City where the general cost of living is higher. So, yes, the driveway gate and the vet visit might have been somewhat cheaper if I lived in Nebraska, but still hardly free.
The point is that writing  a check with three zeros to a breeder *feels* different than pulling out a credit card for a series of $40 and $80 purchases separated by a couple of weeks. (Cell phone companies make a lot of money on this, by "giving" you a new phone and then charging you $100 a month to use it.)"

I'm not sure what your point is in any of this? I never suggested dog things were free but I said I do hunt around for a bargain and make the most of my journeys. I have already pointed out that we're agreed on the same thing - if people thought beforehand how much a dog might end up costing them, it might put some unsuitable owners off. BTW I would never write a cheque in the thousands for a dog, simply couldn't justify it. Thank goodness I own a breed that is much more affordable (which unfortunately means that lots of people breed who shouldn't but that is another issue I guess).

Marisa
Just kind of acknowledging your earlier post, really, that's all.
Merely making conversation, I guess.

cheers
Allen

Allen,

Merely thinking out loud here, with your connections to Ian Dunbar would he not be able to assist you with getting your articles published in one of our papers? Heck you could go all out and create a TV show too? Why not?

Thanks for the other links too..