> The behaviourist doubts any drugs would be of benefit to Mabel now

If Mabels behaviour is caused/added to from a medical condition then drugs to treat the condition will alter her behaviour

>the initial assessment was that she was stressed and anxious

This sort of behaviour can take a long time to help so the following statement doesn't really tie in with the initial assessment:

>any improvement with her would have been in the initial weeks

I think you need to find a different behaviourist, it all sounds a bit rubbishy, especially as they never thought getting Mabels full bloods done to start with was worth bothering with. Even the most experienced behaviourist can not tell by looking at a dogs behaviour weather it has any medical influences!

I would hope that the behaviourist would have addressed any potential underlying medical condition in the early days of assessment.

My only thought is that if a thyroid issue why has her behaviour always been okay with the couple? I can quite see that it might be a matter of extreme irritability and thresholds that have not got to boiling point with the couple, but it does not seem clearcut.

As I said before, some terriers can be extremely wired and highly reactive and I can see that if not dealt with immediately and in the right way ( and this is not meant to be disparaging as it can be very tricky indeed) I, for one, can see how going for feet and other dogs can become a bad but somewhat rewarding habit for this kind of dog.

I too hope that it turns out to be thyroid as that would be more straightforward.

Will your vet do the profile herself or send of to Jean Dodds. Thyroid panels are best done by a specialist.

> My only thought is that if a thyroid issue why has her behaviour always been okay with the couple?

It could be a combination of thyroid and environment - if her thyroid is off, she'll be feeling lousy; with the couple there is less stress around so she could be better able to cope with that lousy feeling, but at home it's harder so she gets reactive.

I say that from personal experience - my thyroid is duff and in the last year, since it's gotten a lot worse, my fuse has shrunk to almost nil.  I get furious in a heartbeat - something that never used to happen.

N,
Yes, I accept that is a possibility- but then a first time mating is stressful and she seemed to enjoy that, though other hormones may balance things out . Anyhow, if it is thyroid at least there is a remedy at hand. I still think there may be an element of learned behaviour in this too that may need tackling. But, but, but...so hard to say without seeing the dog and family in situ.

Sometimes there are no answers with some dogs. It's just who they are, some dogs do like scaring dogs or people. I know of a young akita pup who lives to scare other dogs and she was all of 14 weeks old when I first saw it. Owners are aware and handle really well, but it's there in her temperament. Why? Who knows? If we had all the answers we would have stopped the world meglomaniacs at age 3!!

I see no problems with you excluding Mabel when people arrive you're not hurting her feelings, you're simply not giving her chance to practice and perfect her unacceptable behaviour. Why keep giving her chances to possibly bite people? Exclude her, bring her into the room if you want on a lead, naughty behavior results in exclusion again. 

Don't forget her breed type, they are not soft dogs!! You have to accept her genetics and work with it and if she likes making people jump but you don't like it in her, then exclude her. Try not to get too caught up in why she does it, at 5 years I would have said it's about management not behaviour modification. Obviously get the blood work checked out just in case you never know but if normal, time to draw a line and figure out a mangaement plan. 

I  notice you did not answer my question freelance, which was, are a member of APBC promoting their services? not suprised you did not answer.

I would hope that the behaviourist would have addressed any potential underlying medical condition in the early days of assessment.

Behaviourists only assess how much money they can make from any client, their supposed 'treatment' (tongue in cheek) is treating themselves to a part of someones bank balance - your experience is typical, sadly.

They are buisness people selling a vague notion to others about a meaningless word they call 'treatment', sadly your finding out just what that word means to your dog, as have all to many others, below.

SillySue 30.06.10 07:19 GMT
I have seen a behaviourist highly recommended on this website several times ( no names) my poor dog was forced into situations where he was actually vomiting with fearhttp://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/124063.html

Banger another APBC expensive nightmare - 15.03.02 16:07
The third we tried was an APBC member behaviourist. We had to go to our vet to get referred to the Behaviourist and while we were there the vet said if we didnt get any joy with the Behaviourist to try a new drug called Selgian. Anyway we travelled the 50 odd miles to the APBC behaviourist.http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/6516.html

Banger a year or so later........

Banger 35 secs into video
Having seen a member of APBC, namely Carrie Evans, I found her behaviour programm as much use as a chocolate watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Z1XSnUdy8

Speedsmum 2:42 secs into video
I have my own experience of APBC I was told by a well respected member to have my dog PTS as his behaviour was incurable....Now I know that he certainly was NOT beyond help!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Z1XSnUdy8

BANGER
I have to agree with Yapyap. We have tried positive methods for over two years with Max and have seen Max get more aggressive. I suggest that Lindsay has never seen a High Drive dog in her life. We had JoJo up here two days ago and it took him 20 minutes to get near Max without being attacked. This is what positive methods have done for Max, including Carrie Evans(APBC APDT)  and Celia Bourne behaviourists.
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/24351.html
.

'Welcome back' Denis.

Why not come straight out and admit that you only ever recommend the use of shock collars or prong collars for all training situations? Then everyone will know your own agenda.

Lorripop-My main worry and problem is that as soon as she hears visitors voices she goes mad and we cannot let them into the kitchen or where she is  without muzzling her or putting her a way

As far as the above problem goes, I think that because this is confined to very small area of a house it will allways be to risky to have her in the same room as visitors, mainly because of the speed, it would take no more than a second or so for a dog to get from one side of a room to the other and bite.

Rather than just go off that one, unsuccessfull/typical disaster APBC visit try someone from The Guild Of Dog Trainers, they are a multi disciplinary group of trainers with a vast repertoir of approaches amongst them rather than one coat fits all one trick pony types. Rule 10 forbids members from endless ££££ sessions which go nowhere, at least dont give up just because of one APBC cashire.

Also, I have no commercial interest of any kind in dog training or dog related things.

Rule 10 (Guild Of Dog Trainers)
Members agree that they will not convey to their clients unrealistic expectations in the advice, action or recommendations proposed and to ensure that instances where they are unsure or unable to resolve a dog training or behavioural problem are promptly referred to a suitably qualified dog behaviour practitioner or dog trainer who has that specialist knowledge. It is incumbent on a member not to continue provision of the same instruction, training or advice to a client and their dog which is ineffective despite a genuine training effort

http://www.godt.org.uk/rules.htm

> Behaviourists only assess how much money they can make from any client, their supposed 'treatment' (tongue in cheek) is treating themselves to a part of someones bank balance - your experience is typical, sadly.

> They are buisness people selling a vague notion to others about a meaningless word they call 'treatment', sadly your finding out just what that word means to your dog, as have all to many others, below.

Sweeping generalisation, much?  I am a behaviourist and I charge next to nothing.  I cover my expenses and a few quid on top (literally a few quid) because I am out to help people and their dogs, and as many people as possible - and plenty of people can't afford the prices of a lot of behaviourists (I don't quibble those prices btw - for the knowledge and experience it is worth it but many people - myself included - would be unable to pay).

I also ask that any dogs with aggression issues (and any other cases that I think might benefit from it) have a full vet check done first to rule out medical causes.

Nikita,
I do hope Lorripop comes back on and lets us know how things are going.

I don't know about you but I find it hard to engage with confrontational postings/posters that seem to come from leftfield.

The person I'm interested in here is Lorripop, I do hope we can keep the thread on track.

I've always been most impressed by your advice and I know there are many more people like you out there.

Oh very well done, jeangenie :-D I knew I recognised the 'style' but just couldn't remember the name!!