From the very first post I have felt that the OP doesn't want any financial involvement, and that was why she posted - wanting to know her "rights."

99% of us would have already collected the puppy because we bred it, and it is our responsibility.

To be fair I think most breeders could be worried about huge veterinary bills that may not have been necessary and may not be their responsibility if this is down to something the owner has brought about but having said that none of us here know exactly what ails the puppy and where the causes may lie.

Obviously the breeder cannot collect the puppy as that would be theft. If this was me, the first thing I'd do would be to ask the owner to instruct their vet to speak to mine if mine would call them, and find out the facts. It's so common with owners that don't relay properly what they have been told by a vet. I hate to say it but I would also want PROOF that the pup actually was ill, and that's where vet speaking to vet comes in also. I once had a kitten buyer telling me their kitten was at the vet's, really ill and about to die before the end of the week. I requested the permission for my vet to speak to theirs, and all of a sudden the owner said guess what, the kitten is fine now, so no need for that! I've also mentioned here recently a friend who was told a kitten she had sold had died, then when she managed to put vet and vet in touch found out it was a different kitten altogether that had died -the one she had bred was fine. In both cases the buyers were out to get the purchase price back by lying.

> 99% of us would have already collected the puppy because we bred it, and it is our responsibility.

Unfortunately unless the pup is local this would be totally impractical, and of course the breeder has no rights whatsoever to the puppy as it is now the new owners property, so cannot insist on anything.

I once took that chance Barbara.  I drove 4 hours each way and offered the full purchase price, and brought my puppy back home.

Yes but you can only offer, not insist :(

If that had been possible I'd have had Jozi back at 5 months rather than 8 1/2months

The owners took the dog to a different vets on Thursday night, the pup was handed over soaking wet where the 'vets' had tried to clean off the mess the poor pup was sleeping in. The latest I have on the condition of the pup is that he is gravely ill, the new vets have said that the pups white blood cell count is very low, the bacteria (not sure of the type) may have gotten into the intestines where it will cause septicemia and pneumonia. The pup was not treated properly at the original 'vets' (rspca) and was basically left by them to get worse. The blame or money is no longer an issue.

Poor puppy. Fingers crossed he will pull through. I would sell my soul before I would let the RSPCA even look at any of my dogs. Only time they show any interest is if they have a film crew with them. Hope the owners are going to complain very loudly about the terrible treatment (or lack of) of their puppy.

Bless the poor wee thing, that poor, poor puppy.

You must be devastated, this puppy is in grave need of TLC, when a pup is weak in an environment where it is just in a crate with medication it gives up and drifts away. I hope that the new vet along with treating the pup properly now is allowing it home to be loved, that will give it the fight to get better. Will power really does make a huge difference in cases like this.

I have my fingers and toes crossed that the poor wee thing will come through, so pleased you have been able to influence your puppies owners, keep in the middle of everything, the new owners obviously care about your pup a great deal, lets hope we have a happy ending here for all concerned. Wishing the pup better.............

Keep us updated and for goodness sake make sure that pup is held and cuddled as well as being given it's treatment.

Poor little pup, I do hope he pulls through now he's somewhere where he can get properly treated, and hopefully cuddled and loved too. :-(

Just heard that the pup is home! He was diagnosed with a virus of some sort. He has managed to keep down his food and water (although tiny amounts) overnight and his owner collected him today. The owner has bought all new toys, bowls, and bedding to stop the virus re-infecting him. He has to be fed every hour through a syringe a special paste with everything he needs in it and very small amounts of water. Good news hopefully he'll come on even better now he's home!!

What brilliant news! I was hoping this little chap would pull through. He's home so he will get loads of tlc and hopefully be fit and well soon. Puppies don't do well when left alone in strange places and the vets at the RSPCA should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for allowing this puppy to deteriorate so much whilst under their care

> the vets at the RSPCA should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for allowing this puppy to deteriorate so much whilst under their care

You cannot generally treat a virus therefore, unlike bacterial causes, probably nothing could have been done to prevent the vomiting and diarrhoea and therefore fluid therapy may very well have saved his life.

> You cannot generally treat a virus therefore, unlike bacterial causes, probably nothing could have been done to prevent the vomiting and diarrhoea and therefore fluid therapy may very well have saved his life

No this is very true,however leaving a very sick puppy covered in poo and vomit is not best practice and I stand by my statement that they (RSPCA) should be ashamed of themselves.

Again a little hard to say if the puppy was too ill or distressed to bathe at that point.  It also worth noting that few vets have nurses or vets in attendance 24 hours so it is likely that any animal may be soiled at times when an inpatient at any of these practices.

The failure to x-ray was slack; if an animal is too ill to sedate for x-ray you simply use the sandbags to restrain them.

>few vets have nurses or vets in attendance 24 hours so it is likely that any animal may be soiled at times when an inpatient at any of these practices.

However it would be cleaned as soon as its dirty state was noticed.

And if he had been in a big enough pen he would not have had to lie in a mess in the first place. And even very sick animals feel better for being clean. 

> few vets have nurses or vets in attendance 24 hours so

  They do round here!  In the summer of 2010 when I had a pup in, she was fed by syringe every 2 hours by a veterinary nurse, both day and night.  The girls have a rota for night duty with one vet.  I couldn't be doing with no nurse or vet attendance at night.

Whilst it is true that a virus can't be treated the symptoms can. And I am not sure from what we have been told if the IV antibiotics were to control a secondary infection or just doing something to look as if you are trying to help the pup. And I can not understand leaving the pup in a wet, smelly and miserable condition. It seems that 24 hours with a different vet has made a lot of difference one wonders if the pups body has come to terms with this virus or if some proper care has made all the difference.

Just so glad, that it is good news and the pup is on the mend. Please pass on big hugs to the pup and owners.

So glad the pup is looking better, have been following this hoping the little fella wold pull through.

few vets have nurses or vets in attendance 24 hours so it is likely that any animal may be soiled at times when an inpatient at any of these practices.

How many owners/breeders would leave a very sick pup unattended overnight?

My guess is NONE - to be sure most of the people who post on CD would be staying close by and keeping an eye on things ;)   Surely, since they have chosen a caring profession the Vets and Vet nurses should at least be ensuring very sick animals that they are being PAID to treat are not left alone during the night?  Or if they are NOT sick enough to require 24/7 care then they should be allowed home.

,however leaving a very sick puppy covered in poo and vomit is not best practice and I stand by my statement that they (RSPCA) should be ashamed of themselves.

Totally agree, in addition, a wet pup would get cold very quickly - not good when he is already very ill.   They need warmth just like babies/young children.

> And I am not sure from what we have been told if the IV antibiotics were to control a secondary infection or just doing something to look as if you are trying to help the pup.

...or covering all bases at a time when a definative diagnosis had not been determined and the poor chap was deteriorating. 
I have no idea whether diagnosis and treatment was lacking or not in this case but in the absence of direct access to either the medical notes or presentation from the vets/nurses I'm not sure that any of us know any better and therefore in a position to critisise. :)

>one wonders if the pups body has come to terms with this virus or if some proper care has made all the difference.

......................or the iv therapy has paid off.  This sort of thing happens all the time in human medicine.  One GP prescribes something, patient gets impatient (scuse pun :)) takes himself off to second doctor and either first medication begins to work or second medication that would always be tried proves to be the correct way and voila first GP is a numpty :)

> How many owners/breeders would leave a very sick pup unattended overnight?
>
>

None, I'm sure but that doesn't alter the fact that most practices do not stay in attendance 24 hours.  This is the one benefit that the change over to group or specialist on call practices have.

Ive watched this thread and held my breath hoping that the pup would make it. Thing is we dont know very much in detail really do we, we havent got any of the test results, nor what the pup was tested for.  We dont know the blood results or exactly what antibiotics it was given.  We arent told why the pup went to the second vets (was that even suggested by the RSPCA as it needed more care?) or was it the owners that took it? There isnt even anyway of knowing what the 'table scraps' were, they could be anything from sausage rolls, to pieces of cooked carrot or boiled chicken.  We have made quite a few assumptions and at no point has the OP said what she has offered the owner or if she actually wants the pup back. Even though lots of breeders have said that they would drive there and just get it.  Im not sure, if I was a new puppy owner, who was worried sick about my new dog, that when I'd visited it, looked fine but came down sick not long after (yet the OP had waited until now to ask questions about refunds etc) I would have gone mad thinking that the breeder could just come and whisk my pup away thinking that Id not looked after it properly.

Looking at their website, the RSPCA make it quite clear that they only offer quite basic treatment, so its quite possible that they referred the pup on themselves.  Who knows?  However it seems at least if the pup is recovering from whatever it has.

Great news!

>This is the one benefit that the change over to group or specialist on call practices have.

I totally refuse to even consider groups.  I want my own vets on call.  They know that I would change to another practice if ever they changed.  I do know that there are a lot of folk on CD who feel exactly the same as me.

I totally refuse to even consider groups.  I want my own vets on call.  They know that I would change to another practice if ever they changed.  I do know that there are a lot of folk on CD who feel exactly the same as me.

Sadly this is becoming more and more impossible. :( I certainly don't have the choice any more, unless I want to go back to my previous vet -the only one in the area that does their own out of hours -and believe me, I have PLENTY of good reasons for never setting foot there again -wanting to keep my animals alive for a start........

brilliant news and fingers crossed he continues to do well and that your relationship with the owners is on a good footing again as I felt with cause you were concerned they may not have been doing the best for him
Keep us informed as to his progress

I'm sure but that doesn't alter the fact that most practices do not stay in attendance 24 hours.

I'm afraid I see absolutely no reason why I should leave a very sick animal at any vets if there is no-one there to look after it.   Even on a drip the animal could come home with me rather than being stressed by being in a strange place and alone apart from whatever other strange animals are left in the cages in the 'ward' too.   As far as I'm concerned, paying for the animal to be 'in hospital' means paying for someone to be there with it, otherwise it's just another way to extract money from the customer.

I have experience of this, my Burmese had an unidentified virus, was paralized and was hospitalised, I was called to see her as she had gone downhill rapidly and the vets were recommending PTS.    When I got there, she was in a room with two Staffies and a Boxer - all going crazy and barking like mad.   I asked if she'd been kept there and they said yes because the cat room was full!   I pointed out that as a cat who was unused to going outside she was stressed beyond belief and I was very unhappy about it.   She had been checked on at night though as they always have someone at the vets on call.  Took her home and created an isolation ward in DDs bedroom and with much care  and physio she made a full recovery.

I'm not particularly defending this way of doing things, Dill, just pointing out how it is :)
However, I did not say that animals are not checked on just pointed out that many vets, if not most small practices, will not have staff on site 24 hours, although I am sure it works out just fine with many animals that will just be resting in between observations and treatments.
If they just need nursing rather than medical interventions I am sure most vets would rather you took the animal home.

> If they just need nursing rather than medical interventions I am sure most vets would rather you took the animal home.

I would find that very unlikely and is not borne out by my own experience. A very lucrative addition to their income, a few nights in a cage in a vet practice can net hundreds of pounds for very little effort..generally added to an insurance claim.

It is a business after all.

> If they just need nursing rather than medical interventions I am sure most vets would rather you took the animal home. <

But how are they going to give that medical intervention when there is no one on site?. One of my vets is closed from 7pm till 8am the next morning. With no provision for staff,the animals are completley unattended.

If an animal were to require urgent assistance far better it is at home with the owner.

But how are they going to give that medical intervention when there is no one on site?. One of my vets is closed from 7pm till 8am the next morning. With no provision for staff,the animals are completely unattended.

If an animal were to require urgent assistance far better it is at home with the owner.

Totally agree - I am lucky in that my vet does offer 24/7 cover with a vet nurse at the practice at all times with a vet on call at all times.  I am also lucky in that the only occasion when I might have left a pup with pneumonia overnight the vet suggested I took her home as she knew I would look after her and the pup would be better at home.  She didn't have a lot of hope for recovery, but she actually recovered very well.  I left my dog in after surgery and knew she was looked after, she didn't make it but that wasn't their fault.

> But how are they going to give that medical intervention when there is no one on site?.

At my vets practice the oncall vet drops in at appropriate intervals. 

> If an animal were to require urgent assistance far better it is at home with the owner.

Well, indeed but many owners may not recognise a deterioration that might avoid a critical incident in the first place and distances would come into things too wouldn't it?  There may be regular iv fluids changes or antibiotics to be given during the course of a night too.
I am sure anyone who prefered to manage things at home with visits to the surgery when required would not be denied that opportunity :)

> I am lucky in that my vet does offer 24/7 cover with a vet nurse at the practice at all times

You are lucky :) my vet does not have a vet nurse even in the daytime just a receptionist/assitant.

A very lucrative addition to their income, a few nights in a cage in a vet practice can net hundreds of pounds for very little effort..generally added to an insurance claim.

Spot on, I was absolutely horrified to learn that my vet at the time had no-one in attendance during the night.  It never crossed my mind for a minute that there would not be a v.nurse there too, watching over the animals staying over.

I can not tell you how guilty I felt leaving my girl there after her operation, the v.nurse actually talked me into it saying it would be better for her to stay and rest properly, as I left her wound was being cleaned and I walked away feeling content that she would be watched over throughout the night, better than I could as I would need some sleep, I thought she was being cared for whilst there, medically and emotionally. And could not understand at the time why she had soiled herself when I came to collect her at 9am and they were doing their best to clean her up.

I didn't actually find out until months later when another v.nurse slipped it out during a consultation. I was mortified. She could have been home with me being cared for properly, I was not happy at all, I felt so guilty....... my poor girl.

It's disgusting, I can only imagine or rather I would rather not! How a 16 week pup would be coping with that. Terrible!!!

I would say to everyone ask first, don't assume like I did and look for a practice that does have night staff if need be and mostly make sure that it is actually necessary and not a way to line pockets, in some cases I dare say it is necessary but I think in many it is not.

My girl certainly could have come home for peace, quiet, rest and TLC, she sure as heck would not have been alone and soiled herself.

> There may be regular iv fluids changes or antibiotics to be given during the course of a night

Well that would not happen at one of my vets as they do not do drop ins at all. Once the surgery is closed for the night it stays closed for the night. How do I know? because I asked when they wanted to keep one of my dogs in overnight. I had not long registered with them and they prob saw £ signs but they soon discovered  I'm no soft touch.

You are lucky :-) my vet does not have a vet nurse even in the daytime just a receptionist/assistant.

Oh dear :-( yes I can ring my vets at any time knowing that there'll always be a vet nurse on and a vet close at hand... they have normal surgeries on sat and sundays and cover at all other times.  They wonder why breeders use them!  Plus they have a referral vet at the same practice, so very useful :-)

>You are lucky :-) my vet does not have a vet nurse even in the daytime just a receptionist/assitant.

OMG!  I just can't imagine anything like that.  There is a rota for nurses night duty, and they have a flat above the operating theatre.  The OOH vet is a rota system too. 

During the day if I call in, I would say that I probably see around 6 veterinary nurses.  If a section is needed, then the pups are handed directly to a nurse - and they all pride themselves on care and attention.  It is their duty to get pups going while the vet is sewing up the bitch.  I honestly can't imagine a vet with no nurse, it just doesn't happen in my area.  I have never heard of a surgery with no nurse.

they have normal surgeries on sat and sundays and cover at all other times

Same here!  So glad that someone else finds it normal!  To save on Bank Holiday call outs, they also have a skeleton staff for BH's just for emergencies.  At night, there would still be a normal call out fee, but during the day it is the normal consultation fee.  They don't book appointments for normal visits (such as boosters etc), but it is great that you can phone in an emergency.

This thread has now gone off topic - the OP did not ask for an argument about out of hours cover at vet practices! It looks like the pup is now doing ok and the OP had plenty of replies to her original question so will close this now.