I sold a puppy to someone with four weeks insurance, when it left me it was healthy. After they had it for a month it became ill with bloody diarreha, the owner originally thought this was due to overfeeding it table scraps, however a month on it is still having episodes of it which are getting worse. Is the owner in the right to ask me for the money back? As this does not sound like a congenital problem but more of a parasite issue.

Have they taken it to the vet and what did they say ?
My friend recently bought a pup which got bloody stools and the vet said it had colitis . A course of antibiotics and feeding Chappie and she is now better.

It has been back and forward to the vets the whole time, they administered antibiotics but they didnt make any difference, the dog is in pain also, the vets are trying to stabilize her so they can give her an xray. If the pup was ill from birth then surely it would have shown symptoms but it was completely healthy, they were checked over and weighed everyday from birth right up until leaving at 8 weeks.

It could be many things but certainly not something that would have been incubating since he left you.

Has pup been wormed since he left?

Parasitic causes could be giardia?

Could be Bacterial infection, Campylobacter can take a lot of shifting.

Wrong feeding can cause colitis etc etc.

How has their vet treated it? I assume it's been checked by their own vet and had a full course of vaccinations, with no diarrhoea then (or it shouldn't have been vaccinated).

Diarrhoea that starts after a month in a new home is highly unlikely to be connected to anything that happened on the breeder's premises, assuming that the puppies had been wormed several times before sale.

> the owner originally thought this was due to overfeeding it table scraps

Stating the obvious here but have they stopped the feeding of scraps?

A foreign body could cause symptoms like that; I had a bitch that had bloody diarrhoea for a week before eventually passing some cling film, which we didn't know she'd eaten, and wouldn't have shown up on x-ray. After that she was fine.

He was taken for his vaccinations and he was wormed also. The person who bought the pup has contacted me saying that the blames lies with me as the pup was never 'right' since they have had him, however like I said he was perfectly fine. I have contacted the other owners of the rest of the litter who say their pups are healthy. I am so worried as this was the first litter I bred and I dont know the protocol.

Never mind the protocol--do you want them to keep this puppy if they don't want it? If it was me I would be getting it back asap, even if it meant a refund, to ensure it got the best veterinary attention to sort this out and find it a new, truly loving, home.

Are they just wanting you to hand them money or are they wanting you to take the pup and give them a refund?
Its amazing the amount of people who asure you they will follow your feeding instructions and keep to the same food
etc but the minute they have the pup feel the need to change everything.  Once inflamation sets in the stomach/intestines,
it can take a very strict feeding regime to get it back on track.   Fingers crossed he's ok.

As I said, it's highly unlikely to be anything you've done if the pup was well for so long (the vet will have asked  them all sorts of questions about his health before vaccinating, so either they told him the pup was fine because he was, or they lied and told him the pup was fine but he wasn't) after he left you.

Ask them to get their vet to contact your vet (were they vet checked before they left) to discuss the problem. As a gesture of goodwill, admitting no liability, you could offer them their money back on the condition that they return the pup to you, and treat him yourself.

I'm staggered that someone thinks it OK to feed an 8 week old puppy table scraps. Sure the breeder is not at fault nor has any liability but would suggest they hear via their vet what the pups vet thinks the problem is and the treatment that has been given when the problem started and when the last injection was given, worming details etc. If the owners are not happy to deal with the matter then they must return the pup to the breeder for treatment and accept whatever the breeder feel able to return in the way of money. Perhaps the resale fee less the cost of treatment would be fair as the breeder insured the pup and if it has not been continued that is not the fault of the breeder either.

I'm with zan.  Give them their purchse price back and take pup back so that you can ensure correct veterinary treament.

I wouldn't want a pup that I bred staying with these folk.

Agree with JeanSW, i'd offer the puppy purchase price back and take the puppy home with you.  You would then be able to get the right care for the pup and find a loving home.

The pup is in the vets, its been there for 3 days, they have now said that the pup has been put on an antibiotic drip as they now think it has an infection but they dont know where.

Silly question, but was the puppy taken out before vaccinations?

i have been told that it was taken to a friends house but it was carried there and they have no pets

Well, you know what has happened don't you,

The pup was fine (as per your statement) when it left,
The rest of the litter is healthy and fine with their new owners,
You gave the breeders 4 weeks free insurance.

Now 4 weeks later the pup is ill, the insurance has run out? They have not renewed with a new insurance? That is their problem, why do you think insurance exists for problems like this. And the vet for some reason has kept the pup in for 3 days to date, (why?) no doubt that will be costing a hefty amount, so who do they turn to to blame and try to re-coup costs...... da, da, daah......... the breeder.

Well, not your problem if they did not insure, not your problem that they have fed it the wrong food, or if the pup has got an infection, you have done everything correct.

You do not give a refund and allow someone to keep a pup too, that is not protocol absolutely not!!!

If the pups illness is nothing to do with you as a breeder, just bad luck, or something that they have done, then be there as a breeder, do not offer any veterinary recompense as that is admitting fault, but as everyone else as said you can and IMO should take the pup back and give a full refund after only 4 weeks.

If they wish to keep the pup then of course they do not get a refund.

But as everyone has said your vet needs to speak to their vet to find out what the problem is, not quite sure why the pup is staying at the vets??????

I am not a breeder but I would want my pup back asap and if required would refund the money to get it.
Good luck

The pup was taken in originally because it had bloody diarrhea on and off since christmas, this week it got worse, the vets kept it in to xray but it was too ill to be put to sleep for the xray, so they kept it in until it was stable enough to have it done, the vets put a tube down and didnt find anything and bathed it, it was supposed to be home today but overnight the pup went downhill and has been put on a antibiotic drip as the vets now think it has an infection but they dont know where.

>it had bloody diarrhea on and off since christmas,

Since Christmas!        It's the middle of February!

Well, if I had a poorly pup and I had taken it in when it first fell ill, my vet would have sorted it by now.  I wouldn't be with him if I still had a pup with bloody diarrhea 6 weeks later.

When exactly did they seek attention for this very poorly pup?  I wouldn't be at all surprised if they lose him after all this time.  Have they been in contact ever since his first health problems?  How long have you known about this?

I have to say that it worries me that you have not collected pup and refunded by now.

> Is the owner in the right to ask me for the money back?

This should be the last of your worries.  The welfare of a pup that you bred should be your very first priority.

> but as everyone else as said you can and IMO should take the pup back and give a full refund after only 4 weeks.
>
>

Carrington, I think if I read through correctly  the people have had this puppy nearly 2 months. I would not offer a penny towards vet fees and to be honest I would not offer a full refund. Yes I would offer a reduced price to reflect the money I will need to spend with my vet getting this puppy well, but I would not do that untill my vet had examined the puppy and I had an idea of the problem and the costs.

They took the pup when it first fell ill, the vet just prescribed antibiotics and told them to feed it on a sensitive diet and to stop the table scraps, they took the vets advice but the pup has continued on and off with bouts of the illness, each time they took it back and it was given antibiotics. This time they decided as the antibiotics are not working that they would take the pup in and xray it. However in the surgery the dog went downhill and the anesthetic could not be administered so the xray could not be performed, so the pup was kept in until well enough to do the xray, the xray was taken and a tube was put into the dogs stomach and the pup was bathed also. They were due to pick the dog up today but overnight the vets said he went downhill and they think he might have an infection but they dont know whereabouts so the pup is now on an antibiotic drip. I have not took the pup away from the owners as I was only aware of the situation when the pup was taken into the surgery this week, where it has been since. I dont think it is appropriate for me to take away the pup as they have done all they can, although they didnt follow my feeding advice as soon as they found out it was wrong they stopped. However they have been asking about refunds as they say the dog was ill as soon as they got it, I have since pointed out that the dog had been with them a month before it shown any symptoms of ill health.

If the pup didn't show ill health until several weeks after getting it home there is no fault your end.

If they don't want pup any more then you should have it back and when well and resold offer them what you get for it less expenses.

If they intend to keep the pup offer moral support, but you have no financial liability, the pups was well, insured and if they chose not to continue with Insurance then that is their fault.

No different to if the pup became ill any other time in the future, this was not a pre-existing problems at time of sale.

The pup would have been examined and pronounced fit to be vaccinated.

It does sound like they are trying to scrape together the vets fees from anywhere they can, do you know if they definately havent carried on the insurance?  Its not as if the problem is something genetic like deafness or a bone issue that has only just been discovered. If it was a genetic issue then I would be offering to take the pup back for a full refund asap.  Do you have a contract where it states where you would give a full refund?

This is a gastric issue that the pup didnt show when they were still with you.  Has the pup been tested for campylobacter or e-coli? If the pup has been out in their garden it could have found some puddle or mud to eat/play in. Sometimes if a pups tum is upset by a new food (ie table scraps) then it can set up a real bout of inflammation and then the stomach doesnt accept much at all, even its normal plain kibble, until its had a bit of a rest on a really really bland diet.  I would be providing support and getting your vet to speak to their vet, so you can see what is happening, but not sure what they want the refund for as if the pup was going to have a gastric issue it would have appeared at weaning when its stomach would have been under most stress.

Did they not continue with insurance after the free period?  Is this why they are asking for a refund?  Technically, I can only imagine a refund would be given if they return the pup, so are they saying they don't want the pup now?  If the pup has a congential problem that was undetected, then they may have a point, although I think that's highly unlikely.  Until you know what the real reason they are asking for a refund (it may be as simple as someone has told them to do this), and they realise a refund means returning the pup it's difficult to say what is the right thing to do? 

You ask the question 'what are my rights?'  - I'm not sure what you mean - your rights to get the puppy back? whether you are financially liable?  or anything else?

A few years ago I had a bitch puppy that was bright vibrant, always the first to come forward. She was always tiny though and the others shot away from her in size and weight.
At about 13 weeks she became ill and then died. Everyone was devestated. They had actually continued insurance. They had a post mortem done and it turns out one of her kidneys had not developed, it was sort of shrivelled. Their vet said it was genetic and you could not have known. Insurance did pay for the treatment. KC insurance was brilliant.
I had never had anything like this happen and felt so upset for them. They still wanted one of my puppies so I gave them the bitch puppy I was running onto show. Had I not had a puppy I would without hesitation have given them their money back. We see each other and their new puppy once a year and she is healthy and happy.
My point is that sometimes you may not be aware of a developing problem when the puppy goes.
Diane

I don't think you are liable in any way.  Anything could've happened in that timeframe when he was out of your care.  They should've continued the insurance that you had obviously advised and put in place so I don't think you could've done anything better/differently.  Someone that didn't care about the pup, wouldn't now be going to all that expense to get him right again so I don't think you should be taking him back.  They just sound like new owners who made a mistake about the table scraps thing.

I just wanted to add that I would be slightly worried about the amount of time this poor pup is spending in the vets and getting horrible treatments at a time when he is at his most vulnerable.  I know in some cases it can't be helped but how many breeders on here have read this through their fingers knowing you could fix this in a week with time and care?? I know I would rather give that a go than the vets drip!  Most puppies get upset tums after leaving.  It's just the new environment and food and excitement of 'real' life.  It settles back down again if you keep to the instructions the breeder should give.

but how many breeders on here have read this through their fingers knowing you could fix this in a week with time and care??

Oh cracar, how did you read all of our minds like that, you are so, so, right.

It's the reason why I get so cross, vets very often just don't know what is wrong with a pup, so they give a variation of treatments hoping it will help to great expense, putting a pup through who knows what, and sometimes making things worse as the pup is going through great stress. New owners often end up with very hefty vets bills as they have no choice other than to trust what a vet does and go through the motions. :-(

I feel so sorry for this poor pup, the owner has now admitted that she has more than likely caused the stomach problems due to 'spoiling' her. The latest from the vets is that they are ONLY JUST testing her blood, this is the first test they have carried out, the poor thing has just been hooked up to a drip of antibiotics without them even knowing the cause of the symptoms. The 'vets' is a R.S.P.C.A. Centre.

Why haven't the ruled out the most likely causes first, worms, Giardia, then e-coli or cambylobacter, so correct AB's can be used.

Prolonged diarrhoea can be caused by both persistent cambylobacter and Giardia.

I have no idea, it seems very cruel to keep it hooked up to an antibiotic drip when they dont know what is wrong with it, this is an r.s.p.c.a. hospital PREVENTION of cruelty to animals.

also im thinking could this pup have had a bad reaction to the worming ??? or even the jabs and even flea treatments ??? i do hope all turns out to be ok

So have the owners of this puppy gone to the rspca in order to get treatment on the cheap or is it the only local vet available?
I know vet prices vary, but to some extent you do get what you pay for and I can't imagine buying a new puppy and then relying on the rspca for treatment :(

Don't you have to be on benefits to use the RSPCA?
I doubt they will have the puppy on a drip unless it is necessary as they will have their costs to watch too and to that end I am sure they will have looked at all the common things first. 

But they are only just doing a blood test and no mention of a stool test either.

We don't really know what they have done do we?

We've been told they have JUST taken a blood test after how long and with them pumping ABs into a line.

Yes we have been told but the OP is only hearing second hand.  From what I have gathered they do not have direct access to the treating vets at present.

Well, we can only comment on what we have been told that is the nature of a forum. If no one had commented on second hand information this thread would not exist.

I'm not stopping anyone commenting on what we have been told :)  I'm just posting my own comments.

They took the pup when it first fell ill, the vet just prescribed oral antibiotics and told them to feed it on a sensitive diet and to stop the table scraps, they took the vets advice but the pup has continued on and off with bouts of the illness over a two month period, each time they took it back and it was given oral antibiotics. This time they decided as the antibiotics are not working that they would take the pup in and xray it. However in the surgery the dog went downhill and the anesthetic could not be administered so the xray could not be performed, so the pup was kept in until well enough to do the xray, the xray was taken and a tube was put into the dogs stomach and the pup was bathed also. They were due to pick the dog up on Tuesday but overnight the vets said he went downhill and they think he might have an infection or gastric (but they dont know whereabouts) so the pup was put on an antibiotic drip. On Wednesday she was told he had gone worse. They have not let the owner see the pup until today, (Thursday) she said it was covered in poo and vomit and has lost lots of weight. The told her TODAY that they are going to carry out a blood test, no mention of a stool sample. I do not know why they are using the R.S.P.C.A. (possibly because it has an emergency clinic?)

No way would I be taking a young pup back to the same vet with no signs of improvement[you wouldn't do it with your child and GP]

If the pup was that ill and needed an Xray then it would be too weak to struggle so could be done without anaesthetic just someone keeping it still with the help of sandbags.

This place seems geared up to do the minimum from what I have read, no logical plan of action if she didn't get better,why if they had insurance did they pick an RSPCA surgery,knowing the pup was ill at the end of the free period I'd have made sure I signed up for the insurance to continue with the same firm.

They admitted that over Xmas they were feeding it human food, knowing how rich food can be then it could e upset the pups tummy but not lasting this long.

What else could the pup have got hold of and chewed unknown to the owners, Xmas Tree decorations, childrens toy parts etc., if I bred this pup I would be going and getting it back and hope to save it with the correct treatment if not too late.

I hope we hear some better news soon.

I certainly wouldn't be offering them a refund except if the pup came back to me.

Were you aware they would be using the RSPCA hospital (presuming they are benefits claimants and have not continued the insurance) when they bought the puppy?

A lot of places like this will just throw the easy answer at any issue, in this case, antibiotics - most new pups get the runs, especially if fed on inappropriate rich foods/excessively - to then add antibiotics to the mix without any idea as to whether there IS anything there for antibiotics to fight is just crazy and THAT is likely what has naffed up puppies digestive system since, as he/she will now have little 'friendly' bacteria in the digestive tract to digest food with/fight off nasties.

I would be taking this puppy home (as the owner, instructing the owners to do so as the breeder), if bloods show up no reason for antibiotics - and giving this puppy as much pro-biotic stuff as was feasible (live yoghurt) alongside a bland and inoffensive diet for a few days.

Chobbitz, if this were my pup,

You know how we all love our pups it doesn't stop when they leave, I would be begging the owners now if I could please take this pup and take it to my vet now, get it better then return it, I'm sorry to be pessimistic but I feel this pup may die if you don't do something now!

Make it clear you are doing this as you care about the pup, the expenses if any at the RSPCA vet are nothing to do with you or a refund of the pup, unless you keep it, but if you want this pup  to live  ask them if you can collect it right now with them and you'll look after it from now on.

I know it is not a legal responsibility and it is up to you whether you want to do it at all, but if it were my pup I would have to insist on getting it back, I couldn't let it dwindle away and possible die like this. If the pup dies you are not responsible, but it's treatment IMO is not helping it is being sick and has diarrhea and is weak, it will die if something doesn't turn quickly. Sorry, but it will.

I'm with Carrington on this. 

But...on reading your last post, this seems a bit different than just an upset stomach.  I'm now thinking along the lines of the pup being exposed to parvo or the likes.  Bloody, runny stools and going downhill fast sounds like that especially when the pup was covered in it(What? No-one could help the pup toilet??). If he were mine, I would discharge and get him home.  Even if he were to take a turn for the worse, he'd know love and home for a while.

By now I think I would have taken the pup for a 2nd opinion to a proper vets practice. I have done so in the past when I wasn't happy with the treatment given to one of my own pups. You pay a bit more but well worth it.

I've been following this thread and hoping you get a good outcome. As a breeder i agree with everyone else please please please get this puppy some competant medical attention URGENTLY. I'm aghast that the so called RSPCA said the owners couldnt see the pup as it was covered in feces and vomit !!!! how long had it been like that and how long did they leave it like that, also (without reading the posts again) i thought the pup had had diahhroea (sp) there had been no mention of vomit so what has changed ?

> i thought the pup had had diahhroea (sp) there had been no mention of vomit so what has changed ?

Exactly.  The OP has no direct information on what is going on and we definately haven't. 
If the puppy is so poorly as to need IV fluids I doubt arriving and taking it away is a real option.  Probably the only possibility in that direction would be to obtain permission from the owners for the OPs vet to communicate with the hospital regarding taking over its care if possible.