Just curious........ if you had a query for a puppy from a KC assured breeder, would you be more wary and ask more questions than normal?

On the other hand would you make it known to the breeder that's what you were?

>would you make it known to the breeder that's what you were?

I don't understand. Why would having an enquiry for a puppy for an Assured Breeder be suspicious? Surely it's a way of giving your credentials, like mentioning that you've been a member of your breed club for X number of years, and so on.

I'm not quite clear on the question.  Do you mean if you had a query from an Assured Breeder or if someone came to you because you were an Assured Breeder?
Either way I don't think you need be any more wary.  Why should you?

Being an assured breeder is just part of your dog CV so yes you should mention it and no it should not effect the puppy owners attitude toward you it is just another piece of information about you the prospective purchaser.

I wasn't sure how it would be viewed from a puppy sellers point of view.

But I suppose if you do your regular checks that would be fine.....just a little worried that the puppy would be used for breeding but I suppose the endorsements would take care of that side of things.

From a puppy buyers point of view I suppose it is a credential......hadn't thought of it like that.

> .....just a little worried that the puppy would be used for breeding

Well, if there are Assured Breeders then there is a fair chance they will want to!  :) but, like you say, you can place endorsements and they are going to have to carry out the necessary health screening to meet the requirements of the scheme anyway.  Personally, I would also ask some level of show or work achievement too before lifting them.

Puppies have to be bred from if we are to continue to have dogs, most breeders would not mind selling a puppy to someone who stated from the start they intended to work or show the pup and if it proved satisfactory and would fit in with their breeding plans it would be used for breeding.

An endorsement is placed and an agreement made that once the health tests are done with satisfactory results and the pup has proved itself to be a credit to the breed it would be lifted. Only possible difference may be that the breeder makes clear just what standards in health and work or show results they are looking for before they will lift the endorsement but in practice it is not a problem in most cases and both will want a good animal to pass on its genes and will not want to use one that is considered of poor quality.

I suppose something to ask is if the puppy does not meet the criteria (health, temperament, looks) will the breeder keep the puppy or do they tend to move such dogs on to pet homes... As some people who breed will do that, it would be good to know from the start how this person works...
Also of course you might wish to know how the puppy will fit in to their plans and discuss endorsements in detail...

I'm not an assured breeder but have just bought a puppy - the breeder of the puppy has sold 3 of the litter to people she HOPES will breed from them (if they're good enough!) she has sold them to responsible people and perhaps she'll have a puppy back from one or more of these people.  She has trusted me to have a dog in another country and without KC endorsements BUT with a (standard) agreement that I wont sell or give the puppy away without her approval which I'm happy to agree to.  I imported a dog from USA again without KC endorsements and again with the agreement and intention that he should sire pups.... both these are boys but they may have been girls and the agreement/conditions would have been the same.  Why wouldn't you want your pup to go to responsible people who may breed from them?  Selling to someone irresponsible would be awful, whether they breed from them or not :-(

At least they have been honest with you about wanting to breed. Personally, I don't sell pups for breeding (all endorsed). My girls only have two litters maximum and then I retire them (they live with me for life I might add). Just because someone carries out all the health tests that I do, there is nothing to stop them from breeding more litters than I consider acceptable. It is also common practice amongst breeders/exhibitors to "pet home" dogs that don't make the grade or whom have been retired from breeding. It depends if this bothers you - otherwise, a carefully selected pet home is a safer option (IMO).

I don't sell pups for breeding

So when you breed a litter the improvement of the breed as a whole does not come in to it, are you saying you only breed for yourself or you only breed for the pet market. Sorry to ask but I find it hard to understand your statement (I don't sell pups for breeding)

Supposing one of the pups you have bred turns out to be something very special that could offer really good genes or it proves to be clear in a problem that is rife in the breed are you saying you would not lift the endorsement?

Cavlover, lucky for you the breeder of your first breeding bitch didn't think the same otherwise you wouldn't be able to have had any litters to do all the health tests on.
also from what I have read on here, even the most vetted homes can turn out to be a nightmare and sometimes endorsements don't matter to people who only want pets (not to show or work) who are quite happy to breed from a bitch and not register them and sell them for a reduced price! (see the ads time and time again and usually the bitch is far to young)
Someone who is up front about the possibility of breeding, is willing to prove the dogs worth and keep in touch is just as good a prospective home for a puppy as someone who "just wants a pet" IMO
Paula

I  think there are many positives in having a "possibly going to breed" owner, for many the dogs are also pets and they live for the dogs and do things with the dogs...

On top of just a pet, they probably show/work their dogs as well which to me would be a positive opposed to a lovely pup just being hidden away in somebody's home.
They are generally more knowledgeable as owners and tend to know what they are putting themselves in to...
They have contacts in the breed so if something was to happen (nobody knows where life takes us) they would be likely to know people to take care of the dogs they have...They would understand why you would like to keep in touch with the new owners and would be less likely to just re-home without even telling you.
They are not likely to breed un-registered puppies if the dog does not meet the standards of endorsements being lifted or just have a litter with the neighbours dog as it would be nice...

You  should be able to out about the person from other people in the breed so can have some detail of what they are like, look records of what they have bred before which will give an inkling on the "values" and breeding practises etc.

So in many areas a SAFER bet in my opinion as long as you seem to have similar "values" when it comes to breeding& trust them as a person (and can dig info out to check they are what they say they are :)) Of course if you did not like what you see, you would not sell them a puppy.

Of course you have the added benefit of possibly going and getting a pup back later on if for some reason what you have kept does not meet the standard...

I would vet an Assured Breeder I didn't already know the same way as any other potential puppy buyers, having that title doesn't unfortunately mean they are not a puppy farm as I seem to be finding out,showing and being a member of breed clubs is no guarantee either. I found the breed supplements quite an eye opener on who was producing litters and how many in each quarter,the number of litters and pups each bitch has produced and the date of the previous litter. Assured Breeders litters are automatically advertised for free on the KC Puppy Finder pages which are worth checking out too.

I have always been upfront about showing/breeding when looking for a new pup, this meant my search for my first bitch took nearly 2yrs before someone had faith in me to let me have one and then a second 10 months later, now I am better known and know more folk in the breed my recent search didn't take so long.

Good Luck with your research

My purpose for breeding is NOT to sell puppies to others for breeding. I breed for me, to continue and improve my own lines - is that ok with you ? (Nova)
I would never say never, but as a rule I don't sell any pups I don't keep back for myself, for breeding. That said, a bitch I bred in my last litter is looking very, very promising and her owner is one I would consider lifting it for if health tests were completed and all satisfactory. Lifting an endorsement would be a big deal for me - up and until the KC changed the rules, I saw in the BRS that some of the most respected show people in my breed were happy to register 6 litters from one bitch !!!!  I genuinely believe if a bitch hasn't given me something worthy of keeping back after two litters, she probably never will.  So why continue to take litters from her? Generally speaking, someone enquiring about a show or breeding home would probably be turned away. I had 2 enquiries with my last litter from potential show homes, but they were not pursued. Namely because all but one that I had available had been provisionally reserved before they were born - and those PET homes were super and they would choose their pup first (with my guidance). I wasn't prepared to change that for someone who was effectively taking a risk on a potential show pup at 8/9 weeks as so much can change in the weeks/months to follow and pups may have not turned out as well as hoped - then what ?? Far better for such people to approach one of the larger show kennels in my breed who often have older show quality pups for sale.

My purpose for breeding is NOT to sell puppies to others for breeding. I breed for me, to continue and improve my own lines - is that ok with you ? (Nova)

But does that not mean your line will always be very limited as in it will only ever be the dogs you keep yourself that will be able to continue the line? When you die then surely your line will die with you so how does that help improve the breed as a whole? I don't breed and never will but I can't quite see the purpose of breeding a line that won't help out future generations of your particular breed.

My purpose for breeding is NOT to sell puppies to others for breeding. I breed for me, to continue and improve my own lines - is that ok with you ? (Nova)

Was not digging at you but was at a loss to understand your stance, can understand you having a litter because you want to keep a pup for yourself but otherwise most breeders I know would be looking at the breed as a whole and to withhold quality pups from the breed gene pool would be unheard of.

From every litter there are, of course, a number, may be most destined for pet homes or show/pet homes but I do not understand why you would want to stop others using a quality bitch or dog for breeding just because it is carrying your lines. Most breeders are happy to mentor those with pups of their breeding and pleased to see a quality healthy animal they have bred being used in another persons breeding program.

Perhaps it is a breed thing, I don't know but it is something I can't comprehend do you never use outside studs either?

> I had 2 enquiries with my last litter from potential show homes, but they were not pursued.

That seems very strange to me. Most breeders would be pleased to have a person who wanted to show a pup and thought they might be good enough. Surely the aim of breeding a litter is to produce puppies that can win in the showring?

> and those PET homes were super

I am a show home but like to think I offer my dogs a super home too. Being a show home does not preclude being a good owner. And most of the show people i know look after their pups better than Joe Public.

> My purpose for breeding is NOT to sell puppies to others for breeding. I breed for me, to continue and improve my own lines

I think the point Nova was trying to make is if a breeder had not allowed you to have a puppy in the first place you would have had no bitch to breed from in the first place. And yet you refuse to sell a puppy to someone who may wish to breed. I for one don't get the double standard you set.

Getting back to the original question...my first reaction would be NO. If I dont know them and they are KCAB I would assume they were 'puppy producers'.
As it is often mentioned on this board ..endorsments can be ignored but especially by people who fly under the radar.

I like to really KNOW the people who have my bitches, I like to see them often and to be in the loop as far as their health and wellbeing are concerned.
For me this is fellow breeders or people who show a great interest in improving the health of the breed...and showcasing this at shows is an advantage.

>Generally speaking, someone enquiring about a show or breeding home would probably be turned away.

That sounds as though you don't have confidence in the quality of the puppies you're producing.

>my first reaction would be NO. If I dont know them and they are KCAB I would assume they were 'puppy producers'.

Surely an AB has more traceability and would be easier to vet than a complete stranger?

> If I dont know them and they are KCAB I would assume they were 'puppy producers'.
>

I joined the AB scheme yrs ago as although it is flawed in a number of areas I felt it was a starting point for improving breeding practices. I can assure you I am most certainly not a "puppy producer"

To me, the show homes are the ones I LOVE to get. Not because they are always the best, but because it means I get to see the puppy regularly! I find the agility and obedience homes generally are fantastic, and a good pet home of course is nice but those that are pet AND showing, nothing beats that. You get to see the pup a lot, you become close friends with the owner, you get more of your pups out and about seen in the show ring. There are so many advantages. You can sit at home a weekend even, maybe not feeling well, or not having entered a show for whatever reason, and suddenly you get a phonecall or a text telling you a dog you've bred has done really well at a show -so you've won without even having left home LOL. And the breed shows and Crufts become family reunions, they're the best shows of the year for me as that's when owners of your dogs from all over the country meet up at the same show. Most of the pups that go to pet homes you will hear news from regularly (although some don't do that, sadly) but will never SEE again. The ones in the show homes you never lose close contact with.

> Surely an AB has more traceability and would be easier to vet than a complete stranger?

Yes perhaps but I hardly ever 'do' complete strangers either.
If someone is an AB and I dont know them Id be a bit twitchy. It would mean they dont show or know the same people I know so it would be easy to miss something.

Getting back to the original question...my first reaction would be NO. If I dont know them and they are KCAB I would assume they were 'puppy producers'

I get your point here tooolz -if they are in the same breed and breeding yet you don't know them from shows, then something is fishy! However bear in mind they may be AB and have listed your breed as a second breed, without actually having got into that breed yet -they may have another breed they are known in.

> I can assure you I am most certainly not a "puppy producer"

Youre not asking to buy one of my pups, a breed which is awash with puppy farmers and BYB. People who churn them out willy nilly with little care for their own dogs, the people they sell to and especially not to the betterment of the breed.

I wouldnt know you of course as Im not placing a GSD but if I were to and I could find no one who knows you, can vouch for you then NO I wouldnt sell you one. You are in another breed which is abused by many.

I did say my reaction to the OP question was NO but if I found out or was informed that the person was exemplary in their aims for the breed then of course Id consider it.

> they may be AB and have listed your breed as a second breed, without actually having got into that breed yet -they may have another breed they are known in.

Marianne dont get me started on the people who keep a cavalier or two to help pay for their show costs of their main breed.

In the 60's it was the poodle..everyone seemed to keep one or two as 'stewpot money' to fund their main breed. A small easy to sell breed which is no trouble.

> If someone is an AB and I dont know them Id be a bit twitchy. It would mean they dont show or know the same people I know so it would be easy to miss something

But what if they were starting off with a different breed? You would not know them as "your breed" would be a new beginning for them. But they may well have been showing for yrs.I have GSD's but I hope to one day have a Borzoi,the Borzoi people wont know me,but that does not make me an unsuitable person,or a "puppy producer",or it should not. Surely I should be given some consideration.

> does not make me an unsuitable person,or a "puppy producer",or it should not. Surely I should be given some consideration.

No indeed and I am savvy enough to suss that out.
I too scaled down from a bigger breed and had to persuade people to sell to me but I had a track record, people who were willing to vouch for me and no history of churning out for the market.......Im sure it helps.

> I saw in the BRS that some of the most respected show people in my breed were happy to register 6 litters from one bitch !!!! 

Quite an eye opener isn't it?

There are judges who register several litters in every single BRS.

Marianne dont get me started on the people who keep a cavalier or two to help pay for their show costs of their main breed.

That's terrible. :( :( That's something I'd never even thought of to be honest -although I recognise the scenario from way back when, with rabbits! People would have one breed they were actually interested in, and then have Netherland Dwarf on the side as their "bread and butter"rabbits -the ones bred just to sell to make money to fund the rest.

I understand now why you'd be so wary!

> There are judges who register several litters in every single BRS.

I don't much care how many litters people produce if what they are producing is all of good quality. Some top breeders in my breed produce more litters than I ever would but you see their stock succeeding in the show rings around the world and they are making their contribution to the breed in general.  This isn't true of everyone of course but of some this is simply a reflection of their breeding success and therefore the desirability of their lines so I would not be too quick to judge (pardon the pun :)).
When comparing the BRS you also need to compare the value of those litters by show results etc. 
There are BYBs producing less individually (although by eck they all add up) that never produce anything of value to the breed.

> But does that not mean your line will always be very limited as in it will only ever be the dogs you keep yourself that will be able to continue the line? When you die then surely your line will die with you so how does that help improve the breed as a whole?

I quite agree.  I can keep only a limited number of dogs so generally I will only keep one bitch from each generation.

I have kept two from Lexi, who is my 4th generation home bred.  One for the new bloodlines,  and one from her second litter  because she was a 'cracker'.

So I now have to accommodate two bitch lines in the dogs I can keep.

If I did not let any one breed my 'cracker' would not exist, as she is by a dog I bred.  My next stud choice that I hope to keep a puppy from was sired by another dog I bred.

When I breed a litter when I can't keep a puppy then I breed with the hopes that the best may go on to be useful to the gene pool and that I may benefit by bringing something back into my own line further down the road.

I think it makes a big difference if your breed has a huge gene pool or a very small one like ours has become.

I have sold bitch pups to others who have bred from them, some established breeders and others just starting, yet our numbers are depleting rapidly, but the puppy farmed/BYB bred mostly non registered stock is still being produced, even though we are well under a hundred pups registered with the KC, in fact under 50 in two out of the last 3 years..

> To me, the show homes are the ones I LOVE to get. Not because they are always the best, but because it means I get to see the puppy regularly! I find the agility and obedience homes generally are fantastic, and a good pet home of course is nice but those that are pet AND showing, nothing beats that. You get to see the pup a lot, you become close friends with the owner, you get more of your pups out and about seen in the show ring. There are so many advantages. You can sit at home a weekend even, maybe not feeling well, or not having entered a show for whatever reason, and suddenly you get a phonecall or a text telling you a dog you've bred has done really well at a show -so you've won without even having left home LOL

Exactly, and when after years they go on to breed somthing good from your foundation it is even more satisfying.

>That seems very strange to me. Most breeders would be pleased to have a person who wanted to show a pup and thought they might be good enough. Surely the aim of breeding a litter is to produce puppies that can win in the showring?

I wish more people thought like that. In my breed the vast majority of breeders will not consider selling a show potential puppy, particularly a bitch. We don't have huge litters but we are a numerically strong breed, but it has taken 18 months for me to get hold of anything promising, and though fingers crossed she will do ok at the open shows, I don't know if she'll be good enough for champ shows, we'll just have to see. Of course you can never be sure, but the top kennels (and I tried quite a few) just weren't interested in selling anything decent. Most people in my (albeit limited) experience seem to think the purpose of breeding is to get something THEY can win with - and if they can't keep all the showable puppies in a litter, they don't want someone else showing and winning with them.

> Most people in my (albeit limited) experience seem to think the purpose of breeding is to get something THEY can win with - and if they can't keep all the showable puppies in a litter, they don't want someone else showing and winning with them.

There must be few breeders these days in most breeds that can keep all the promising puppies they breed.

I do suppose this is easier with small breeds and breeds where a high percentage may be mis-marked and litters are small.

Certainly in my breed some of the best breeders were well known for selling good ones to others as they were limited in numbers they could keep or were unable to show as much as a promising puppy deserved due to family or other commitments.

This was certainly true of one of my mentors, who has the record for number of UK champions owned or bred, with most being home-bred and majority owned by other people.

Thanks for your replies......I asked the question because I've been looking for a second breed for a long time that I can show with not too much preparation before hand and will fit into my household.

I think I've settled on a breed and was wondering what kind of response I would get when I "reveal" I'm a KCAB for a different breed. I wouldn't be known in the show world because I've mainly participated in other areas.
From the replies I've had it seems the reactions could go either way.

I suppose the best way to go would be to attend a few shows, introduce yourself and ask questions about your chosen breed, better than a voice at the end of a phone or an email. Get details from those who have been friendly and leave your details to help with future contact.

This also allows you to see which kennels are doing well in the ring.

Good Luck with your search.

I too would talk to breeders about their dogs and your wish to become involved with the breed.
Starting off with your breeding plans may be a stumbling block.....I'd introduce the AB matter later as it does contain the 'breeder' word.
Most serious people you'll talk to will want you to show or work the dog, health test it and then assess its potential, not just jump in to say you intend to breed.

I've visited some shows and spoken to some people with the breed so my next step would be to contact a breeder, I don't have intentions for breeding straight away or even at all really. I will wait and see what happens with the showing.

I'm just in two minds whether to mention it or not.

If I don't i'll feel like I'm not being truthful.

If I do I don't want it to jeopardise my getting a puppy and "into" the breed.

Well when I wanted a second breed (and the original intention was never to breed, it just followed on naturally after a few years) I did mention being heavily involved in another breed with breeding and showing, and in my experience it has done nothing but help me as people have taken me more seriously from day one. I guess in this day and age Google is you friend and if people Google me or my kennel name (after having rejected all the results about buying gold from a small country called Mali!!!) they will find show results and similar to prove it.

If it was me I would mention it from the start.  I doubt it would prevent you getting a puppy from another responsible breeder, I really can't see why, and it avoids any discomfort around why you might have withheld the information until later.
  If this is to be a foundation bitch you are going to want to start off on a clear and open footing with her breeder from the start I would have thought.

Tooolz : "I did say my reaction to the OP question was NO but if I found out or was informed that the person was exemplary in their aims for the breed then of course Id consider it"

Ditto to that :-)

"Generally speaking, someone enquiring about a show or breeding home would probably be turned away."

"That sounds as though you don't have confidence in the quality of the puppies you're producing"

Jeangenie, I am new in my breed, so what would be wrong with thinking that someone wanting a show puppy might be best suited to enquiring from a well established, well proven show kennel about an older pup or even an 8-10 week old pup?

JeanSW the BRS is an eye opener indeed !