I had a litter just over a year ago that produced 7 beautiful puppies. I wanted to keep a bitch but all 3 were mismarked and as I enjoy showing (as well as working disciplines) I decided against keeping one, but kept a dog instead. He has done really well in the show ring and surpassed all our expectations, his brother has been shown very sparingly  with a novice owner and also done exceptionally well. One of the mismarked sisters was shown once and won her class qualifying for Crufts (she is a very nice bitch and the one I would have kept except for the mismark).

I am planning on mating my bitch again this year and have been actively looking for a stud dog. My bitch has a particular conformation fault that I wanted to improve and managed it in every puppy from the last litter. The others are all doing well in their homes and are nice looking dogs, with good temperaments, I'm really pleased with them.

So...do I do a repeat mating in the hope that I get the bitch I originally planned or do I go with a different dog to enhance variation of bloodlines. I should say, it is a relatively rare breed. My bitch is an import and I used a foreign sire on the last litter to bring new bloodlines.

Appreciate your responses.

Personally I am not a fan of repeat matings, in my own breed they are never as good second time round. Do you know which line carries the mismark or have you seen any other puppies produced by the sire that where mismarked? It is very difficult searching for a good male that compliments your bitch.

> Do you know which line carries the mismark or have you seen any other puppies produced by the sire that where mismarked?

It may not be one dog or the other causing the mis-mark, it could be the combination of both. I had a litter a few years ago where my dog and bitch together produced mis-marked puppies but my dog mated to other bitches produced well marked pups and so did the bitch in an earlier mating to a different dog. Of course the bitch I liked best and that had the best structure, the one I would have kept  was very mis-marked. So annoying!

Ive only repeated a mating twice.
Boxer litter of 6 stunningly well marked quality bitches then 2 very ordinary blackfaced pet puppies.

Cavalier litter of 5 perfectly marked, exceptionally beautiful puppies...one bitch a UK champion and one dog a multi european/baltic states champion....... then 4 well marked pups without the quality of the first litter. All nice, 3 of the 4 shown and all multi qualified for Crufts ( if that is a gauge) but nothing exceptional.

I would be very reluctant to do it again despite many people advising me to repeat a litter I had last year which produce 5 exceptional pups..the best litter Ive had for even quality...all in show homes..... Doubt it though, putting my eggs in one basket and all that.

A friend of mine in similar circumstances had only one bitch puppy, but the overall quality of the litter was really good, but the bitch not quite on par with the dogs (5 dogs).  So she repeated the mating and got two absolutely gorgeous bitch puppies which both went on to do well in the ring.  So in her case it was lack of numbers.

We don't have mismarking in our breed, so I'm not sure what I'd do in your situation.  Were any of the dog puppies mismarked as well?  If the overall proportion of the pups was mismarked then it might not be worth it.

Swings and roundabouts I guess -it's pot luck. I've never repeated a mating in dogs. I did once in cats. The first litter produced one Champion, one very good breeding queen (had just a small fault preventing her being shown) and one pet. The second litter produced 6 pets. The best cat I have bred came from a litter of only males, had I been able to I would have repeated that mating to try for a female -alas the sire died before this was possible.

I have owned two dogs that were from repeat matings. Dandy the Golden was from a mating that produced a wellknown Champion the first time around, the second litter was nothing very successful and Dandy had a hip score of 96 which the Champion older brother certainly did not but he COULD have done, as the conditions were there, i.e. one parent with a very high score. Ripley the Malinois is from a repeat mating that produced 2 Champions the second time (her included), whereas the first litter was good but not the same quality as the second.

I don't think I'd repeat a mating that had given more than one mismarked pup though. The only point I really see in a repeat mating is to get a pup of the sex you want if it wasn't possible first time -otherwise it won't take you forward at all.

True it does take two to tango as they say..but in my own breed we have seen mismarks relating to specific lines :)

I too have been told not to repeat a mating as you don't get the same quality 2nd time around.

Could you try a different stud this time and see what she produces with him and if still nothing go back to the first choice for her third litter.

There is absolutely no reason why a repeat mating should not be just as good, better or worse.  The same genes apply and it is just luck how they fall.  This concept that appears to be emerging in the thread that somehow the best genes are used up first and what will follow cannot be as good or even better is based on no scientific footing that I can understand.
To choose a new mate will also give you random possibilities within the known and calculated perameters but at least with the first match you know good things are possible.  Not knowing the breed we do not know how common mismarks are so I am not sure how much choosing a different mate will affect that.
The only real issue, as I see it after that is, you will be producing more puppies from the same parents within a small gene pool as you say the breed is relatively rare.

Stooge I can see were you are coming from but from what the poster has said if it didn't work out first time round I wouldn't be doing it again for a second time especially if mismarks were produced :)

I repeat mated my first litter..........9 pups, two beautiful puppies in the first litter who made their mark in the ring, one of them was the first ShCM in the breed. Repeat mating same number of pups, same split of sexes 6 fab pups this time in the second litter, one took the breeds first CC at Crufts last year,I kept 2 bitches one is my top winner and the breeds 2nd ShCM and the other always in the cards. Certainly the quality genes weren't used up in the first litter.

> from what the poster has said if it didn't work out first time round

Apart from the mismarks it seems to have been rather good

>One of the mismarked sisters was shown once and won her class qualifying for Crufts (she is a very nice bitch and the one I would have kept except for the mismark).

I think it is hinges on how common mismarks are anyway. 

Again I see your point just personally I wouldn't repeat the mating and nothing to do with using up good genes either. I just don't like to repeat matings even with good results first time round. I have seen repeated matings and in my breed they have never produced with with the same effect. But each to their own as others have had great results:)

It's a good job women don't decide to change their partner because the second child can't possibly match up to their first :)

This concept that appears to be emerging in the thread that somehow the best genes are used up first and what will follow cannot be as good or even better is based on no scientific footing that I can understand.

That's why I said it was pot luck! (And pointed out a litter that was better second time around.)

A little simplistic to imagine we think the good genes are used up. More likely we know from experience that litters containing exceptional show winning /great working dogs are extremely rare and the chance of it happening twice is unlikely.
Conversely, a litter which wasnt up to par perhaps shows a combination which can be bettered.

Obviously everyone will have an opinion.  I suppose in your situation you have to weigh up is it worth running the risk of having mis-marked pups again, but there are no guarantees that by using a different stud dog you'll get better marked puppies. 

Repeat matings can and do work in many cases.  I believe it's a very personal decision really on what you decide to do and the reasons why.  I would ask, apart from the mis-marking, were you pleased with the litter in all other ways?  If you are looking at another stud, will he possibly give you something more than this original stud?

Hope you've given yourself plenty of time to make decisions and good luck with the mating.

> More likely we know from experience that litters containing exceptional show winning /great working dogs are extremely rare and the chance of it happening twice is unlikely.

Yes, I see that but the odds are no better for another mating to a different stud and, presumably if you are considering a repeat, that second stud was pipped to the choice for one reason or another.
If you felt at the time of the first mating that stud "A" was the best choice I don't see what would have changed.

If you felt at the time of the first mating that stud "A" was the best choice I don't see what would have changed.

A LOT can change. What you saw on paper is not always what ends up in the whelping box. Recently I spent many months together with my mentor discussing stud dogs for a bitch that I bred, but which is not owned by me. Eventually we came up with one that seemed absolutely perfect in every possible way for the bitch. Indeed the pups ended up looking very nice with many of the qualities hoped for-with the exception that two had white blazes on their faces -in a breed without white markings!!

> A LOT can change. What you saw on paper is not always what ends up in the whelping box.

Oh, yes of course but I meant in the context of the first litter being a success.

Oh, yes of course but I meant in the context of the first litter being a success.

Okay, but what would the purpose of the litter be then? If you got what you wanted, why would you want a full sibling? It smacks to me a bit of "Last litter produced show winners, let's do it again to see if we can make some money". As I said before it won't further your breeding programme at all.

> Okay, but what would the purpose of the litter be then?

Well, in this instance in the hope of producing something with as much promise but without the mismark. 

Have to say that I would do a repeat mating but only once, know some who do them numerous times.  I'm hoping to repeat a mating that I did last year at some point.  It's new blood and I was more than happy with the three pups that were produced.  Yes of course there's a chance that the quality may not be as good but there's just as high a chance that it could be as good. 

> The only real issue, as I see it after that is, you will be producing more puppies from the same parents within a small gene pool as you say the breed is relatively rare.

I have only ever repeated a mating once, the first litter was relatively small (4 pups ) and contained my second champion bitch who has herself produced well. 

The second litter were completely different to the first, taking more after the sire where in the first they were much more Mum.  There were good pups in the second litter including and Irish Champion who also won CC and RCC's on rare outings to UK. 

The total number of puppies was 11 between the two litters, with only one of the second litter adding to the UK gene pool and only one from the first litter being bred from (mine).

I am not in favour of repeat matings as they give nothing new to gene pool.

I would probably do what one poster has suggested assuming ages of bitch and dog permit, try a different dog this time and maybe repeat if necessary for a third litter.  This will also give you a bigger age gap potentially between two full siblings that you keep and may use for breeding.  A half sibling kept would be more useful.

> Okay, but what would the purpose of the litter be then? If you got what you wanted,

but she didn't she wanted a bitch and ended up keeping a dog because there wasn't a well marked bitch.

As we all know we have more control of where our breeding program goes when we own bitches. 

You can have the best dog ever but unless someone else uses him, on bitches whose bloodlines you really want, and lets you have your choice of resulting pups, you can't take things forward. 

Chances are unless you have a large kennel with unrelated lines you won't be able to use him on your own girls, or have to wait a couple of generations before he won't be too closely related, and then maybe none will be a good match.

My 3rd litter was a repeat of the 2nd.  From the 2nd litter I had a Show Champion bitch (4 CC's & 3 RCC's) and a RCC winning male from the 9 live puppies, another bitch was a Crufts qualifier each year too.      I repeated the mating 18 months later.    The litter was slower maturing than the  2nd litter but one of the bitches from this litter now has 9 CC's and 6 RCC's (She is coming up to 10 years old in April & is still picking up at least a CC each year in fact last year she won 2 BIS at our breed club open shows!), my own dog has 2 RCC's and another bitch that was shown as a JB/PGB would've been titled too had her owner been able to continue showing her - there's very few in the breed who would argue about her quality too.

But yet I'm really not in favour of repeat matings!

Thank you all for your replies and suggestions, it was a really interesting read.

To clarify: I didn't get the bitch I wanted from the original litter (due to mismarking) and all 3 bitches are in pet homes and will at some point be spayed.

None of the four boys were mismarked. Three are exceptional quality. Had it not been for the mismarks (which are in different places) two of the three girls would be show quality too, and the third would not disgrace herself.

I only have one bitch and this was my first ever litter, hence wondering what others' opinions were. My bitch is the result of many years research and so was the choice of mate for her. I had studied his offspring and knew he produced what I was trying to improve in my bitch. Even though he lives abroad I met him on many occasions and knew he had a sound temperament and strong working desire, all qualities I was looking for.

It has been suggested that I use another dog, see what I get then return to the first stud for a third litter - this will probably not be possible as the stud dog is 9 now.

My two real dilemmas are:

1. Part of my plan was to increase the gene pool, hence bringing in the imports and a repeat won't do that (but none of the bitches in 1st litter will be bred from). As Brainless says, I won't have the same control over who (if anyone) uses my boy (or any of the other boys).

2. I am struggling to find bloodlines that I like as I am trying to exclude dogs that have too closer links with a particular health issue that is associated with the breed (no health test available), I want a dog to improve on my bitch and can't find a dog that fits my criteria and produces what I want. I appreciate that when mated to different bitches they may produce other things, but some dogs are known for improving certain structural traits.

I have found some dogs that I like and look promising but either I can not find out enough health details of their ancestors or they have only had one or two litters with few progeny so difficult to assess them. One I particularly like has had one litter and missed on one bitch. Of course I understand that someone has to use a stud dog for the first time and take a chance.

I don't see the point of just breeding a litter for the sake of it, I want to produce the best I can. And 'no' not just for money as someone suggested.

Am I just being too choosy? I don't think so, too many people are just putting A to B in my breed and producing quantity rather than quality. I don't want to be one of those.

Dancer you sound as though you were really happy with your first litter other than than miss marks.  At the end of the day you should be breeding for yourself first and foremost so if you liked what you got i.e. conformation, characters etc from your 1st litter and are happy to take the chance then why not?
Personally I thought of doing a repeat of my first litter, it produced lovely puppies, my own is the youngest ever in our breed to be awarded a CC and 2 other littermates have done very well in the ring too.  Like EVERY dog though they still have faults, I've seen from this litter the strengths that have carried through from my bitch and a couple of strengths from my bitch that have not came through.  This time I'm now looking at it through different eyes and hope that I can produce something even better from going to another stud.

I did repeat matings when I was pleased with the first litter. i can see no reason not to. You have some chance of knowing what to expect. Luckily we don't have "markings" in Goldens  to complicate matters!

> i can see no reason not to.

reducing the breadth of the gene pool is the main reason not to.

If the first litter is successful and members of it are used for breeding, then it is likely that people who are likely to breed will be hoping for the repeat to be just as good and more of the same combination will enter the gene pool.

It is similar to the harm done by over use of stud dogs.

In breeds with huge registrations the odd repeat litter may make little difference.

The FCI recommendations are that nos stud dog should sire more puppies than 5% of the registration figures for the preceding 5 years.

In my breed this would mean just 25 puppies (4 - 5 litters in a lifetime, with registrations down by half it might be just two or three litters in future) might sound mad, but ideally no male should have a bigger input into the gene pool than any bitch.

Three friends and I imported a dog who sired 8 litters.  We now have a large percentage of current stock descended from him and now being more than once in some pedigrees.

>If the first litter is successful and members of it are used for breeding

And if they're not (their owners not wanting to breed) ...

Then it depends what we are measuring success by, as for me it is dogs that are likely to enhance the gene pool and help take your lines and the breed into the future in at least as good heart as it is now.

If none of the first litter went into the melting pot then that is a good reason to repeat the mating to ensure that this time some do pass on their qualities.

This is why we have to accept we are not just breeding for ourselves, but have to take the effect on a breed as a whole into account, and the smaller the breeds gene pool the larger effect any individuals breeding decisions can make.

> I did repeat matings when I was pleased with the first litter. i can see no reason not to.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but in Goldens, you would hardly be confining the gene pool further by "making more" of a certain combination. In a rare/limited gene pool breed, a repeat mating could mean that as many as 25% of dogs on the ground have that particular parentage or are half-siblings.

To the OP - I think you know in your heart that you will always be asking 'what if?' if you don't...  However when breeding small animals I have done repeat matings, and like others I have found that I didn't get what I'd hoped for either.

I think a lot of this is statistical, however.... If you tried one pairing and didn't get what you expected, you would move on and try a different sire. But if you happened to get a winner in that first litter (as I have had in my rabbits etc) then of course you are more likely to try it again to see if it will repeat! the laws of statistics are often against you there.

You do seem to know exactly what you are looking for which helps - but would you keep a well marked bitch that didn't match up type-wise? Because that is another roll of the dice, which the repeat might throw you, especially if you then feel the mis-marked girls of the 1st litter would have been more suitable to carry on with. It is very difficult when you can't keep many, but in my experience of other species it is often the ones that are 'ok' type and 'ok' markings - without serious faults -  that are the ones to keep the line going - they won't win shows, but they may go on to produce ones that can.