Help, should it be Riders' Profiles or Rider's Profiles.

Thank you :-)

Profiles being a description of the rider not an image of them side on.

Riders' Profiles if you are talking about more than one rider.
Rider's Profiles if only one rider.
I hope that is right :)  Soon going to find out if I am not! :)

I think the oposite to Stooge. I think it should be Rider's. The profile belonging to the rider.

Dawn R.

As you are talking about "profiles" rather than just one profile, I assume that this relates to more than one rider?  So it should be Riders'.

Yes, Rosemarie, multiple riders and you have said what I thought so -

The title should be Riders' Profiles and each individual rider should be Rider's profile. Right?

Now another if you do not mind should the abbreviation of photographs be photo's or if one photo'

Do you mean damNed profile not dammed lol. Spelling mistake as well as grammatical errors tut tut :-)
The profile of one rider would be rider's but the collection of profiles would be Riders'
HTH

Do you mean damNed profile not dammed lol

No I did not mean damned as in ill-fated, hopeless, unlucky etc. I meant dammed and in dam and blast :-( . You are however correct I can't spell which is half the reason I am unsure of grammatical rules or mistakes but that is another story.

Thanks for the conformation.

There is no reason why an individual rider couldn't have more than one profile so Rider's Profiles could be correct :) :) :) Just a very good reason why the correct use of the apostrophe is essential :) :) :)

There is no reason why an individual rider couldn't have more than one profile so Rider's Profiles could be correct :-) :-) :-) Just a very good reason why the correct use of the apostrophe is essential

Oh! goodness Daisy, don't confuse me any more than I am already, so it does not matter how many profiles there are it is the number of riders that is of importance, one rider the ' is before the s and a multiple of riders the ' is after the s.

Now folks what about photo' or photo's or because it is a common abbreviation does it need a ' and what about 'bus?

> so it does not matter how many profiles there are it is the number of riders that is of importance

Absolutely.  The apostrophe, in this instance, is about the owner ie one or more riders.  What or how much they own does not matter.

>Now folks what about photo' or photo's or because it is a common abbreviation does it need a ' and what about 'bus?

The apostrophe in this instance is about abbreviation.  Ie Photograph has been shortened to photo so you pop in an appostrophe instead of the "graph", 'bus instead of the "omni".   Now the correct multiple for these examples I am not so sure of but I bet Daisy knows :)
Incidentally, it is damn and blast.  Nothing to do with dams but a mild blasphemy I am afraid :).

> Now the correct multiple for these examples I am not so sure of but I bet Daisy knows

Erm ?? :) Plural of omnibus is omnibuses - so bus and buses. Photograph is just photographs as far as I know.

I failed Latin O level so usually have to check a dictionary :) Omnibus isn't a Latin noun, I think, (it means 'for all') so doesn't have a plural in Latin, so the 'es' is just English plural, I think (you can't add another 's' to words that already end in an 's') .......................

Somebody is now going to tell me that I am wrong, I expect :) :)

The simplest way to decide is just to say what you mean in a different way, so ...

Do you mean:

The profiles of the rider - in which case the apostrophe comes straight after the word rider ie rider's profiles

or
The profiles of the riders - in which case the apostrophe comes after the word riders ie riders' profiles

Any help??

Reply to Nova: I wouldn't bother with using an apostrophe at all in the words bus and photo because these have become complete words in their own right nowadays due to common usage  :)
Just my opinion ...

Same with phone, people no longer write 'phone.

That is what I was thinking, bus and phone seem correct but I always feel sort of unsure about photo it seems to diminish what may be someone's work of art.

Now as we are into a long over due English lesson for me what about someone's work of art - is someone singular I always think is is and there for the damn apostrophe is in the right place but if someone refers to anyone then perhaps it should be someones' (no that can't be correct) and as we are at it what about anyone is it treated the same as someone or not.

> Plural of omnibus is omnibuses - so bus and buses. Photograph is just photographs as far as I know.
>

Erm yes :-D but I was struggling more with the plural of "photo" :)  Would you leave the apostrophe in ie photo's.

Definitely NOT photo's :-). One photo, many photos

One rider and one profile = rider's profile
One rider and multiple profiles = rider's profiles
Multiple riders and multiple profiles = riders' profiles

one omnibus, several omnibi :-D

a quick test for the use of an apostrophe...

--is it replacing a letter in a contraction of two words (e.g. do not becomes don't)? use an apostrophe
--is it conveying as sense of ownership or belonging (e.g. the dog belonging to Don becomes Don's dog)

Where NEVER to use an apostrophe...

--converting a singular into a multiple (e.g. one photo, many photos). NOT photo's since this immediately suggests one of the two possibilities above: either a characteristic belonging to the photo (e.g. this photo's frame is ugly) or a contraction of two words (e.g. my passport photo's horrible). The latter is perfectly true, but more likely to be spoken rather than written that way.

More on the use of punctuation available on request, industrial quantities of pedantry a speciality .

> one omnibus, several omnibi

No - I don't think so :) Omnibus, in Latin, means for all - part of omnis (all) - therefore omnibus, I think, isn't a noun, it's an adjective - in Latin. Therefore, omnibi doesn't exist in Latin, therefore we use the English plural -es (as English has adopted omnibus as a noun). Cogito :)

> One photo, many photos
>

Ah, but you have made it easy for yourself by excluding the appostrophe from the single photo' :)

exactly--hence the :-D!

I think my education or rather my educators have a lot to answer for, because I was very good at maths but unable to spell I was branded lazy and in any test was docked a mark for every spelling error so although my science or geography paper may have been 100% correct I would be docked so much for misspelling I would lose interest in the subject and English was the worst of all.

Sure this would not happen now but in my day you conformed or you were ignored and punished. LOL I often wish my tormentors were around now so I could go wave the cheques I have earned for writing under their noses.

> Sure this would not happen now

Unfortunately, it is because that often doesn't happen now a lot of our teachers are unable to write good English themselves :( :( I am a firm believer that writing should contain good spelling and grammar whenever it is written and these mistakes in school work should never be ignored. What else are teachers there for if not to teach ???

There is no reason for adding an apostrophe to the singular photo unless it 'owns' something, and then the apostrophe would appear before the s. The apostrophe is not required to show that photo is an abbreviation of photograph, but is still very occasionally used in place of an absent prefix--so one might still see 'phone instead of telephone. Personally it seems an irritatingly arbitrary and extravagant use of an apostrophe, because the missing prefix might be micro, not tele...but that's English for you. If it comes down to it I can't see any reason why z is pronounced zed---why not ed, or fed, ded or ted?

>If it comes down to it I can't see any reason why z is pronounced zed

The original pronunciation of Z was izzard. Zed is just the second syllable of that word.

Happy days Nova!

When I was sent to school here in 1973 I had an English teacher who would have made a great casting as the Red Queen in Alice--four and a half feet of glacial condescension and a terrifyingly sharp mind. I got huge marks taken off for using American spellings in my first assignment, the first paper I'd ever failed. I had to unlearn 15 years of habit in a week because she said she'd double the penalty if I ever did it again.

Daisy, Unfortunately I don't see words in the same way that others seem to - they are shapes not letters and I have difficulty telling a b from p or d, and in fairness I don't think anyone could have changed that but they did not have to 'turn me off' every written subject by not accepting that I was trying to spell but although I may know the letters in my head I did not and do not know if I have drawn the right shape to depict what my head is telling me. Now there is a confusing sentence if you like.

Anyway once I found typewriters and later word possessors I am much happier because my fingers hit the right key (well most of the time) so I use the correct letter, this does not help me with grammar though and I could have managed that if only I had been encouraged to do so and not flattened because I could not tell the difference between c l and d when hand written.

> The apostrophe is not required to show that photo is an abbreviation of photograph

As the original word is still very much in use, unlike omnibus, I think you might still choose to use an apostrophe.

The original pronunciation of Z was izzard

Thereby proving logic set sail over the horizon centuries ago where English language is concerned... :-)

Then the correct placement of the apostrophe would result in 'graph, not photo'

I am loving all this pedantry.
I love words and the most appropriate thing I ever read was in  Paddy Clarkes ha ha ha, this is NOT a direct quote it went something like.........Loving words as they felt like jewels for the mouth.
This appeals to me very much.

Karen ;)

Me too Karen--I don't know if you caught the recent Radio 4 production of A Short Gentleman (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018xt55) which sadly seems to have disappeared from iPlayer, but I laughed so hard it hurt. Absolutely brilliant.

Ah now you two I do understand I feel just the same only about the beauty of numbers.

No, it looks as though I would have enjoyed it too.

My radio habits are poor, I head for my bed at 10-30ish and then listen on and off all night switching between radio 4 and Doton Adebyo on 5 live. He is much maligned, but I quite enjoy him.

When in London recently we went to the comedy store and saw Paul Merton and gang doing the improvisation stuff, that really was good :)

Karen

AGH!!
Numbers.....What I dont get all my offspring appear to be numerically minded, although my smart 'computor scientist' is the biggest reader ever, he started reading at 3 and has never stopped. Numbers are still his forte'.

Karen

> What I dont get all my offspring appear to be numerically minded, although my smart 'computor scientist' is the biggest reader ever

LOL - there is no logic to it :) My son is a scientist too, but never had any problem with English/languages - he has 4 languages at A* GCSE. Now my OH is another matter :) He has a physics degree, but has great difficulty with writing/spelling. He failed his 11 plus, probably because he didn't have good language skills. Somehow he managed to get an English O level in sixth form which enabled him to go to university (many moons ago, he is an OAP now) :) :)

If it comes down to it I can't see any reason why z is pronounced zed---why not ed, or fed, ded or ted?

I've got a dog called Z ! He was bought by an American lady who wanted a short name for agility, then he had to come back to me when she went back to America. Needless to say his name is pronounced Zee, which has made me start to say zee instead of zed for the letter at times, and it causes no end of confusion having a dog whose name is just one letter. Go to the vet with him and have the staff try to call "Zed" -needless to say he won't listen to THAT LOL.

Mind you, hardest part was getting Z back and realising he couldn't understand my accent at all, and still to this day he gets very confused and will sometimes lie down instead of doing a stand and vice versa!

I do find pronouncing letters in English extremely hard, and basically, I can't do it unless I have a looong time to think. If somebody asks me to spell something, I have to get my husband to do it, most of the time. For instance E in English is pronounced the same as I in Swedish, and G in English sounds the same as J in Swedish, so I never get it right.

Had Z been named by me, his name would be pronounced Zeta. :)

Another silly pronounciation is W why double yew and not double vee? 

Karen ;)

Tell your dog to look on the bright side. He could have been called Izzard :-)

>Now folks what about photo' or photo's

I always say in my emails to people

please see pics attached!!!  :-)  :-)

Ah, know all about changing words to ones you are sure of that is why I use images.

Photos :)!

Now is there anyone out there who wants to defend the use of pic's... :-) :-) :-)

Now is there anyone out there who wants to defend the use of pic's... :-) :-) :-)

Only if you are about to repair the road.