Hi All!

I am new on here so just though I would post for some tips/advice/opinions on getting my boy neutered. I own a lovely Dobermann male, he is now 18 months old, weighs in at 41kg, and is around 29" high. We have been thinking about getting him neutered for some time as we do not intend to use him to breed. I did want to wait until he was physically mature as opposed to the neuter at 6 months which the vets advise. I aim to compete with him in working trails/obedience and we are currently well on the way with our training.
He has always been of great temperament, but a bit of a scardy cat at times, particularily when other dogs out walking (usually males) rush him for a 'check out' uninvited- he used to run away whimpering but at times recently has decided to stand his ground and have a grumble back/see off the intruder! Obviously where I can see this happening I do try to stop this happening by shooing away the other dog (or taking it back by collar to owner if it is a real pain!) if it is rude and he has no problem with this.
Out walking we meet lots of dogs which he is great with, great in training classes and has been to agility shows/shows and appears at this moment to have no issues with polite dogs of any breed or size.
He does all the bitching type behaviour with some females, or if he can scent a bitch has peed, but other than that is not overly interested, he does cock his leg to pee, and marks out walking occasionally. We have never seen any mounting behaviour from him either with my other two dogs (neutred male, spayed female) or freinds/family dogs.
What does anyone advise? I know their are positives and negatives and I am particularily aware that some say 'fear' behaviours can be increased with neutering which concerns me. But on the other hand I have always been of the opinion that if you don't want to breed then neutering is the better option..

Any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated!

We as a family have never felt the need to neuter any male dogs, they are not allowed to roam and only mark in the house when there is a bitch in season at home,they are confined to a crate at these times if not being supervised,never bothered with bitches that live elsewhere and may be in season, no inappropriate humping so they have lived out their lives 13-16.5yrs intact.

If you are worried that removing the testosterone will alter the dog in a bad way then leave them alone.

Some on here have mentioned chemical castration which wears off if there are any unwanted side affects.

Thank you for your reply. He also doesn't mark in house or roam when off lead and has been around entire bitches and spayed bitches with no problem. I did think about chemical casteration but again concerned that this will do more harm than good, and not sure of the longterm side effects.
The problem isn't generally with him, we live in an area where 95% of all dogs are neutered and spayed, and when off leash they seem to have a fasination for him, I suppose his smell is so different. The occasions when we do meet intact males out walking, they seem to have a problem with him, probably due to his size and yes the fact he too is intact.
I was hoping that neutering may make him less interesting to other dogs and therefore their approaches won't be so persistant and therefore he would not feel so intimidated, but on the flip side of the coin I have also heard that the testosterone gives them confidence and can manage 'fear' response when in a threatened situation.

Anyone on here used chemical casteration with good effect?
Or has anyone found that neutering their dog has helped to control other dogs pestering?

Cheers

I am against neutering a healthy dog but if you must give it at least another year he is not mature yet. A well trained dog will not need to be castrated and it may effect him in a way you do not want.

> Or has anyone found that neutering their dog has helped to control other dogs pestering?

Quite often it has the opposite effect and entire males find a neutered dog MORE interesting. I think, as your boy sounds fairly well balanced and showing no unwanted behaviours, I'd leave well alone.

I think that at around 14/18 months, depending on how the breed matures, that the males give off a hormonal scent, it's the same time as the 'fear' development.  For me its the most nerve wracking time to have a dog, they become like a magnet, all the other dogs want to come up and bully the teenager,the teenager doesn't know what to do.   For my money just ride out this time period until your dog learns to behave like a mature dog and isnt throwing a hormonal scent about,  then think about the neutering, but hopefully not.

That's interesting.. I guess it works both ways they are either OBVIOUSLY male (intact) or when neutered could be either without a good checking out by the other dog!
He is a well balanced dog, and a lovely boy, I guess in someways he is still quite puppy-like despite his size and appearance!

Thanks Mowgli this is good advice..

Have a beautiful boy who with the breeders advice & agreement was neutered. Poor boy has ended up smelling female & attracts a lot of unwanted attention from other dogs (male & bitches), resulting that he is now very wary of any dog coming up. I realise it doesn't always happen but I would never neuter again unless for medical reasons & yes he was fully grown/developed when it was done. As for marking it has made no difference, they both marked our old home once, & again when we moved. It is a subject that angers me, even at dog training it's discussed as the end to all problems, when training is the way to go. If I had to do it again I'd be thought of as mad, and ask for vasectomy.

Hi there

I'm also training for Working Trials (but not yet competing).  I would also endorse the recco not to neuter.  I too have seen neutered (and implanted dogs) getting unwanted attention.  In my London park I would say about 1/2 the males are neutered.  I would neuter a male if it was very distressed by in season females (eg; unable to eat), or did lots of mounting, but probably not otherwise.

Remember you can always change your mind later - but only one way!!!  If you are still on the fence once he is mature you could get him implanted to see the effect.  But I would say he will appreciate the extra testosterone for muscle building for the jumps in working trials.  And you might want to progress through to Patrol Dog - might be worth seeing how many in that category are neutered?

Thanks Lacy for sharing your experience- in fact from speaking to friends I have heard of some similar stories, this is what spurred me on to post and see others experiences. I guess I also have had pressure from 'family' where they say taking into account his size and breed (lovely as he is unfotunately some people still cross the road when they see us coming.. I guess that is just public perception of large breed and certain 'types') that neutering should be done- I guess this is just a small minded approach from some people who have only been fed pet vets general 'one size fits all' advice which is to neuter at a young age...

It he is showing signs of nerves then I wouldn't neuter. I use Suprelorin implant which has had a brilliant effect on my male dog and I have to say its relaxed him a lot. He won't be castrated unless for medical reasons..  Have a look at it online, through searches on here and also google it too.. Well worth considering too :-)

Hi Ginjaninja

Thanks for your reply.. we're nto competing yet either but have been working on the scale today! I spoke to an ex police dog handler friend who said that none of the GP police dogs or sniffer dogs were ever neutered unless their were medical grounds to do so.
What breed is your dog out of interest?

Feminization is one of the well known and recorded side effects of castration, you can give HRT which helps but does not totally cure the problem.

Hi Suejaw,

Thank you for your reply. Did you get a Suprelorin implant for any specific behavioural/physical reason, or just to do a 'trial' castration before commiting to the real thing? I will google the Suprelorin implant for some more info!
My boy is not generally nervy he is a confident boy, but unfortunately had a few expereinces as a puppy which were a little on the scary side (luckily no physical harm done) when out walking, and since he has always been slightly weary when large dogs gallop up. He will happily play with his large ridgeback/boxer/doberman friends with no waryness but I guess its just the strange dogs which gallop up or 'stalk' without invitation, and unfortunately usually the ones where the owner has little/no control to get their dogs back!

Hiya

I have a Hungarian Vizsla & belong to Banbury Dog Training Society which has a very keen (and welcoming) Working Trials division.  Who do you train with?  What stage are you at?  Maybe we should start a new Working Trials thread?

Hi again Joey Dobey, Supreloring implant does not totally replicate the effects of castration, it does seem to stop the sexual interest and indeed act as a contraceptive but it does not give the same behavioural or indeed physical effects as castration, I have no idea why but the effect is very different.

Having said the above it is based only on the one dog but I would expect it to be similar in most cases.

> pressure from 'family' where they say taking into account his size and breed (lovely as he is unfotunately some people still cross the road when they see us coming

I doubt people are crossing the road because they can see his dangly bits ;) Seriously, if people are worried about the look of him, having him castrated will not alter that, unfortunatley despite you knowing your boy is lovely other people will just see a big 'monster' :(

I too have people actively avoid my dog (32", 90kg) and they never get close enough to see he still has his bits! My Mastiff will be 5 years old this year, he will not be having his bits chopped of, I really don't see the need. He is a pet only and will never be bred from but I don't think it's worth the  risk of putting him through surgery to have him castrated, it will have no benefit to him atall and will risk causing problems with other dogs or even effect his confidance levels.
I also find a lot of dogs will get growly/snappy/nasty with my dog and do believe that in most cases it's down to the dogs being frightened of meeting such a huge dog, however as he's maturing (the past 3 months) I'm finding that less dogs are getting shirty with him. I think a lot of dogs will 'test' a 'teenager'.

Thanks Mastifflover- I agree with what you said totally- what I meant with 'family' saying to get him casterated was more to do with the fact that they beleive that if you have an entire male then you are increasing the likelyhood of aggression by keeping him entire especially given that he is a 'guarding/working' breed, they are not 'doggy enthusiasts' and although have kept pet dogs all their lives do not really look into the in's and out's of topics like this.
People do see him as a big monster which is a shame, but I guess I would rather that than what I have when I take out my terrier and every child cooes over him, which he really doesn't appreciate! On the other hand if they cooed over big boy, he would absolutly welcome it! I guess public perception is not helped by media portrayal of 'dangerous dogs'!
Only tonight we went out walking, mine on his lead behaving himself as we walked around the block and got ambushed by a shirty cocker spaniel off lead (next to a busy road!) which ran at him barking!! Luckily my boy kept his head and just walked on past- owners said nothing, didn't even bother to apologise. I would love to see the reactions/public outcry if my dog did the same (obviously I would never let this happen), I am sure people would not just 'walk on by' like nothing has happend!
I guess I just worry that these aggressive/intrusive approaches from other dogs will turn his confidence, or kick in a defence response as he matures.. I thought perhaps casterating would make him 'less threatening' to other dogs perhaps also, but as you said I guess his shear size is enough to trigger some dogs. Problem is we live in a busy town and most people have small dogs, when they see a big brutus like mine the little dogs just haven't been exposed to or socialised with such a big dog!

I think a good concept would be a well managed big dog classes where trainers were big dog savvy, big dogs could be exposed to other big dogs and little dogs could come along and join in for 'big dog exposure' so they too grow up to not fear these big monsters!

>The occasions when we do meet intact males out walking, they seem to have a problem with him, probably due to his size and yes the fact he too is intact.
>has anyone found that neutering their dog has helped to control other dogs pestering?

I also had this with my male, then entire, Dobermann constantly. He was neutered last year shortly before he turned 7 due to medical reasons and I haven't had a problem with other male dogs since (bar one neutered one that hates everything!). He got picked on and bullied constantly from about the age of 9 months, when he was attacked by a boxer (male entire), up until last year. He was also attacked by two other entire males who I know are not nasty dogs in general as they are ok with friends bitches and neutered male dogs.

In my experience you do have to watch other entire males no matter how well behaved your own is. I spent many a stressful walk dodging other dogs I knew to be entire males. My poor boy was definitely targeted because of that. I had no problems with him being entire other than the reactions of other peoples entire dogs! On the plus side bitches seemed to love him and even ones known to be quite fiesty with other dogs would go all soppy with him.

He was also a bit wimpy like yours, and is still just as wimpy...no more/no less since being neutered (but he was obviously neutered as a fully matured adult).

Old saying 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'.

According to research http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf there are more negatives than positives in relation to neutering males, so if you don't need to, then don't.

I assume you keep him responsibly, he isn't allowed to wander unsupervised, and you don't have a resident entire bitch or one living next door (though even with my three bitches in season at once my neighbour three doors down male dobes never turned a hair) that could cause an issue.

Also if he is under confident with other males sniffing him then the last thing you want to do is remove what confidence testosterone gives him.  Many neutered males attract unwanted sexual attention, which can turn them into fear aggressive dogs.

>the little dogs just haven't been exposed to or socialised with such a big dog!

Mine have!!!  :-)  And I usually try and place myself next to the huge Rottie at ringcraft.

>I think a good concept would be a well managed big dog classes where trainers were big dog savvy, big dogs could be exposed to other big dogs and little dogs could come along and join in for 'big dog exposure' so they too grow up to not fear these big monsters!

I have done this for years.    I get so cross when toy breeds start yapping when they see a large dog.  It is only fear, but there is no need for it at all. 

Oh!  And don't have your boy done!!  :-)

Thanks for all your views- and I will download and print the neutering article for a bit of 'light reading!'  I too have small dogs a shih tzu and a JRT and they are socialised with big dogs- before my Dobe we also used to foster some large breeds as well as with friends dogs and at classes. I think on the whole big dogs are now less common, especially around towns/cities/suburbs which is a shame.
Zara how is your boy now after so many negative expereinces with being bullied- did it change his temperament at all?

> I think on the whole big dogs are now less common, especially around towns/cities/suburbs which is a shame.
>

I think perhaps there are as many as before, (though with so many flats and tiny houses maybe smaller dogs owned is increasing) but so many owners (my friends included) end up walking them away from other people either early or late mornings, or drive away to quiet places so they can enjoy hassle free walks.

A few years ago when my friend had Glandular fever and I was lead walking her 4 dobes in shifts I included walking them on the local high streets and shopping areas (I am in the middle of three), and ti was amazing the reactions I got two two well behaved monsters, and the people that most often came up to pet them were older people who had owned them once or had them in the family.

I do think dog owners these days with most people able to drive their dogs for walks play into the hands of the dog haters when they keep away from crowded areas.  Also having the dogs used to such places means they behave better as ti is not unusual and overstimulating.  Because I can't drive I walk my dogs everywhere, but I don't' see as many dogs on the local streets as I did in my childhood.

Here is an interesting article with reference to neutering http://sciencenordic.com/should-dogs-be-neutered

off topic, but I would love to know how the Scandinavian countries manage not to have a problem with strays and dogs needing rescue are very low, why can't the English speaking countries be the same (UK and USA).

Thats what crossed my mind.... The unquestioned neuter all policy doesn't seem to reduce the number of straysin UK or US

That is because the main cause of the stray and rescue problem is irresponsible owners, (who won't be neutering) allowing their dogs to breed, often deliberately, as there is a market for the pups.

In the past unwanted litters were drowned, or free to a good home, now they can be easily sold, often.

If you have no particular behavioural or medical problems I would not neuter, no need to do it. :-)

To me it sounds as though you have a lovely boy that you are doing a lot of work with - well done you!  Personally I wouldn't castrate as he doesn't sound like he has any need to be done and as another poster mentioned with Working Trials it may be best to keep him entire.

It could be his age and the hormones he is giving off that is making him interesting to other dogs but I would imagine this will calm with time.  If he is going through any scaredy phases etc I would definitely wait to castrate.

I kept my male Rottie entire until last year, I finally got him castrated at 4 1/2 years old mainly because everytime one of my bitches came in season he was getting grumpier and grumpier...it really affected him and he was becoming a bit of a handful.  For him castration has worked wonders, he is more chilled and great with people coming in the house which had become a problem before since I had this new bitch.

Have a good think before you decide to do anything.

hi joey dobey,i'm new here also and can't believe your query is the first i've read,,you are telling my story,22 month old dobey big gentle daftass,scared of wheelie bins moving,the moon and plastic bags blowing in wind!90%of the dogs in my area are females and the rest are jack russels,terriers,bichons,staffies etc,Every day he was bombarded with the small dogs(it was a cute sight)and he played happily even though they would bite & nip him under his neck most males would act aggresive to him until he turned 2 he started reacting to any dog that tried to mount nip or challenge him,unfortunately his lead snapped one day and i had to rugby tackle him to stop him biting a retriever(who he had played with daily since 16wk old).things got worse every day i had to avoid all walkers finally i got him chemically neutered with supreloin,biggest mistake ever,he is now more skittish than ever,he barks as soon as we leave house at everything ,people,prams,noises its really intimidating for others to be near him,every day he is walked 3-4 hours and its torture because he's on a mission to find anything he can aggress.I was not told anything negative about the  implant and like a fool i accepted our vets speel as gospel,i knew it could make no difference,also that it would mimic castration,8 weeks to kick in and thats that.if i had know about his nads shrinking i would never had gone ahead because i have always stated my boy vincent has a cracking set much to my man's horror.please consider all options if i had visited these forums beforehand i wouldn't have it done.

Hi cazprr, thank you for sharing your experience.  Would you mind if I made some suggestions for your boy?  I'm a behaviourist by trade and I can see a few things you could change/do that might help :-)

hi Nikita,please do,we've had a whisperer before he said he's a good dog,but said he is pack leader 'the boss' so we changed lots of things but he also told us that his hormones will cause most probs so the sooner we had him done the better.Any suggestions that could restore the harmony will be mucho appreciated 8~D

Righto!  First things first, I regret to say, you saw an idiot :-(  Not a poor reflection on you by any means, there are plenty of these people around but they are outdated and incorrect.  No dog can be 'dominant' over us or vice versa - they are a different species, and don't follow the 'rules' of wolf heirarchy (and incidentally, neither do wolves ;-) ).  Also any behaviourist worth their salt would have advised you NOT to neuter a nervous dog without putting a lot of work in, for precisely the reasons you've experienced.  I'm so sorry you and your boy have gone through this :-(

That said, let's see.  I don't as a rule advise for aggression specifically over the net as I can't observe body language etc but, a lot of what you've described is pretty standard for a very stressed, reactive dog so I can give some suggestions for general handling that won't put either of you in an unsafe position.  Your first goal is to reduce those stress levels.  Now this is going to sound a bit odd and counter-intuitive, but bear with me.  I think you need to drop his exercise levels a LOT.  3-4 hours a day is a lot for any dog but for one that is confronting triggers on what sounds like an almost continual basis while out, it's an intensely stressful amount to cope with.  Think about people in high-flying, high pressure jobs - stock market type stuff - stress-related illness, mental difficulties such as depression etc have a tendency to go hand-in-hand with jobs like that and it's very similar for dogs.  With him it sounds like it's manifesting as a dog that's trying desperately to clear any and all threats before they can damage him - pretty standard fare for fear aggression.  Best defense is a good offense, as they say: get in there first.  This is not a dog that's trying to be the boss - this is a dog that is panicking because he thinks everything is a threat and he doesn't know what to try and scare away first.

What you need to understand before I continue is that stress stacks and sticks.  That is, every time he is exposed to a trigger (be it person, dog, whatever, anything he's worried about), his stress levels will increase.  Each increase goes on top of the last, so they stack up.  Each increase then hangs around for a few days at least - they stick.  So, if he's seeing, say, 3 triggers one day, he's got 3 points on his stress meter; that might drop by 1 point the next but if he then sees another 3 triggers, he now has 5 points.  Drop by 1 again but see another 3 the following day, and now he has 7 - so you see how it creeps up.  Stress inhibits learning so when he's extremely stressed on a constant basis, you simply cannot make any progress with him.  And of course the higher it's all stacked up, the longer it takes overall to drop down to normal levels.

Ok, so.  Step one for me with that in mind would be to give him a complete break - a week, probably two from what you've described.  This should be either not leaving the house at all or, if you have access to somewhere suitable, a deserted area or somewhere you can stay far enough away from his triggers that he won't be upset by them (think open fields, countryside, that sort of thing).  This should give his stress levels time to drop down to a sensible level, and allow you to begin work with a fresh start.  Do training with him at home, play, interactive toys, whatever you need to to keep him occupied but don't feel guilty - his walks at the moment sound like they are not enjoyable for either of you so he will enjoy the break!

Now you can start walks again after the break but, as I said before - much, much less than he's getting now.  Remember, every exposure to a trigger will affect him for a few days at least so you need to minimise exposure.  Often this means one or two short walks a day, longer if you are walking in quiet areas.  If you do see a trigger, try your best to keep him far enough away that he's not fretting about it - this is your working distance.  Here you can progress him with techniques such as Look At That or BAT (I'll link to vids in a moment).  The key is to always keep him sub-threshold (further away than he starts to worry).  At that distance, he'll be able to focus on you, give you behaviours to reward (such as moving away from the trigger, sniffing the ground, looking at you, or even just calmly observing said trigger without doing anything).

Right, that's a start; can I ask at the moment, how you are handling him when he does kick off at something?  And also, what he's being fed on?

And one more question - have you tried any calming remedies/supplements for him?

What a great explanation :-D :-D especially about stress level build up.
1st understandable explanation I've read - (had a few problems with Zuma thinking all bouncy noisy dogs were going to eat him )

And I forgot the vids, woops!

Look At That game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdraNF2hcgA

A couple of BAT videos - I really recommend getting the book (by Grisha Stewart), it's a simple but very effective method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p0zsr8SsJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwf53xwyndw

There's another one I want to add, just having trouble finding it!  I'll pop it on when I've tracked it down :-)

Fantastic advice and beautifully put, so easy to understand.

I had a reactive dog, hers were dogs and people. Luckily it's a quiet area where we live so didn't meet many strangers and I got to know other dog walkers timetables and adjusted my walk times accordingly. The people who used to live opposite were her main bugbear particularly their dog who they allowed to roam and it was always hanging about outside - a nightmare when we set out on a walk as it would always chase us up the street barking and growling. I stopped my dog from going round the front of the house unless I took her, which lowered that stress point and eventually the people moved so no dog lingering around all the time and that made a huge difference. I could let her out in the front garden again, initially she would charge out ready for a shouting match at the gate, but after time she realised the dog wasn't there anymore and she calmed right down and became far more relaxed. Now I can understand why with Nikita's explanation. Many thanks.

Thanks for the feedback guys, glad it makes sense :-)

I'll add a wee bit to it as well by saying that it's important to recognise that some triggers have more 'points' than others (goes without saying really, but I'll feel better knowing I've added it!) - so a calm dog at a distance might be 1 point, but right up close 2 or 3; but a bouncy dog, and a dog that runs straight up to you might both be 3 or more.  So one day he might cope with say 3 calm dogs at a distance, but the next day fall apart with one bouncy dog nearby.

It's a bit convoluted sometimes but when you're out there working with it, you do get the hang of it and it becomes second nature after a while to assess a day's walk and decide a strategy for the next day :-)  I do it with clients a lot - Saturday I was going to do some BAT with a little reactive JRT but that morning he'd coped with one dog then kicked off at the next, so we worked indoors instead.  Set the dog up for success wherever you can :-)

and negatives

It can be a hell of a nuisance, at least, if a bitch on heats left her scent around.
.

I'm not sure I get what you mean Denis - do you mean it's a negative of having an entire male?  In-season bitches can cause just as much difficulty with neutered males.

I am all for spaying bitches, and all mine were, albeit later on after being retired.   However, I only castrate for medical reasons.   Castration will only mean no puppies, which provided a dog is properly contained, should never happen.   I also believe that although males will always be interested if around an in-season bitch, for the most part, what they don't know they don't miss.   And for sure, castration won't stop unwanted behaviour - that's down to training.

Over the years, we've kept more entire males, than castrated ones - those being done only for medical reasons.  And with one of those, prostate flare up, I had him chemically castrated rather than put an already submissive and docile old male through castration surgery.

I'd give this a lot of thought before rushing in (it's good that you've held off so far) - this is surgery after all, however quick and usually simple, with anaesthetic to recover from.   And once done, it can't be reversed.

ps   The couple of males we have had to surgically castrate tended to put on weight unless watched, and grew thicker coats - they were also very 'soft' afterwards, lacking their previous zip.   That might be down to breed, and age when done however.    I also agree re other entire males tending to pay more interest to a neutered male .... as if they can't quite understand what he is.   And some entire males will quite obviously pick on a castrated male.  Worth considering if he's already submissive!