Hi I am dreading the vets at 6pm tonight but know I have to talk through my options about my terrier girl who is now 5. I have written about her on here before and taken the advice given but we are at the stage where she is never going to improve and its stressful for the family.

My main worry and problem is that as soon as she hears visitors voices she goes mad and we cannot let them into the kitchen or where she is  without muzzling her or putting her a way - she attacks and bites feet and ankles until she feels she has stopped them and the other dogs have calmed down. Now this I could manage if it were people that were truely strangers or that she doesn't know very well BUT it is with anyone that is not her immediate core family (me husband son and daughter). She wont even let my step son in or my daughters b/f that she has known for 3 years!
once they are in and all settles down she is ok ish but if they pop to the loo and re enter it all starts again and is frightening for them. She has actually bitten my mother and father in law last year because I couldn't grab her in time before they came in. She is unpredictable as well as on occassions she doesn't bother but 90% she goes mad.

If we are here it is sort of manageable but we cannot just let daughters b/f go and get a drink or make a cup of tea without a chaperone, its too risky. Why after all these of knowing him is she like this? I want to understand her but failing.

On Wednesday we are all out in London for the day and I have asked d b/f to feed dogs around 6pm and keep company for a while but I have first got to have a plan of keeping her out the way til he is in and put their food down. Cant cage her for all that time, the muzzle is unfair for that length of time plus i would worry in case it got caught somehow plus it doesn't stop the charging and attempting to bite. Going to have to get the big pen out for her to go in and hope she doesn't bark all day!

I have tried everything with her from a variety of calming medications, DAP diffuser & collar, thundershirt, distraction (which you can only do if one of us is there), & 2 behaviourist over the last 3 1/2 yrs. I have even had her spayed on the recommendation of the behaviourist and vet (they felt she was very hormonal all the time as she had prolonged phantom pregnancies). Oh and read a few books suggested on here to solve the issues.

At a loss of what to do next & kids now older and working and want to bring friends etc home which is tricky as they cant just come in. she barks non stop when we shut her in the cage or utility as she can hear different voices.

with us she is just the sweetest little dog, never demands a lot attention, never snatches food, she just keeps herself to herself unless there is tension brewing with one of the others then she likes to join in or if she sees the cat and then its awlful. sometimes even at rest in the lounge with us if we fuss her she gets a bit tongue flicky where she licks her nose constantly.

Out on walks she lunges at other dogs and screaches her head off, slightly more controlable walked on her own but not still not easy. she would chase anything that moves buts that terrier.

I was going to keep brief but just needed to let it out! I feel I have failed, I bred her and love her but I have to now decided the best course of action - re home which wont be easy for me or her and getting the right home is worrying for me or the option which I cant type :-(

Sorry for your situation, it's unbelievably difficult when this sort of thing happens. However I would also suggest that it would be very irresponsible to rehome a dog with the sort of issues you describe. :-(

Lorripop,

I don't think you can rehome her- I doubt she'd behave much differently elsewhere.

Have you used a trailing lead and tie out stations? By this I mean that when people come you tie her somewhere where, even if she lunges, she cannot get to the intended target. That is just for safety.

I'm interested to know what the two different behaviourists made of her and what they tried? Also, how did you find them- what organisation are they affiliated to? have you tried the APBC?

I think you know that there is no easy solution for this and you sound at the end of your tether.

We have to accept that sometimes dogs are simply not wired right and can be very difficult to live with.

It would help if you could just write something about the behaviourists, what they assessed/conclusions and any interventions they came up with. On the surface it sounds as though what was initially hormonal behaviour has become learned and entrenched- but where a dog is actually biting people I would not want to make wild guesses. Can you tell more?

It's not fair on the dog or anyone who may take her on to rehome her - you've got to either sort this out or have her pts.  A vet is unlikely to be able to help you behaviour wise... I think the best thing to do would be to try someone like Victoria Stillwell's methods and if that doesn't solve the problems you should have her pts.  No one should pass that decision on to someone else or put the dog through the trauma of rehoming or a shelter briefly and then die with strangers - it's not fair on her.  You know what the options are, if you're going to the vets surely it's to have her pts rather than discussing options?

hi
One behavourist was ex battersy trainer and was I thought good, some years ago now (wanted it more as Mabel was getting grumbly on show table with the judge) and he used a sprayed collar for her when she balistic or went for ponies when out walking (live in the new forest) I have since learnt that this was not a good idea and it only worked for a couple of weeks before she totally ignored it.
The second behaviourist was from the APBC list that got recommended on here, quite expensive but spent 2hrs with us, she suggested the muzzle and on her assessment thought Mabel was very anxious and it was fear (though you would never guess!), she said if she were a human she would have major panic attacks. It was her suggestion to see a vet she recommended for this type of thing and spaying, Mabel seemed to just go from season to phantom pregnancy back to being close to season again. She was also concerned that there might be neurological probs as she couldn't remember people other than immediate family, but its only been the last 3 years she has accepted my daughter!

she suggested putting her food in kong to occupy her a bit as she never played on her own - she will play with her son and if we tug with her. I did everything suggested but we are no further on and some of things weren't easy to keep up, such as visitors had to come in make all dogs sit and give treats BUT this wasn't easy as Mabel is full on charging as soon as the door opens and visitors are scared! they couldn't just come in with authority as they were nervous and used quieter voices unlike me! Mabel would sit once she realised treats were involved but she would have already been round the feet of visitors causing damage if the muzzle wasn't on.
the behaviouist gave me a written printed sheet of everything she found and sent a copy to my vet so I was impressed but never got any follow up unless I contacted her which I though was a bit poor. She did say it would take a long time to get Mabel to be less stressed and obviously it depended on us doing the things she suggested over 3 months or so. It also depended on good pack psychology with the other 5 dogs but to me they are fine, I dont have any issues with them. they get a bit excited when someone comes in but they settle very quickly and dont bother with d'd b/f at all.
she has helped with the walking in the sense that i have got the 'look at me' command going fairly well unless the other dogs are around and it excites her then i cant get her back from the terrible screaching & lunging until the trigger is gone or we have walked past.

When we go away an older couple have her who have always had the breed and they have no trouble with her. They have a border terrier which she gets on well with. There house is quite rural and less busy than mine but even with their gardener and cleaner Mabel is ok BUT she has only ever spent a max of 2 weeks with them in one go so its difficult to know whether she do the same as she does here after a while.

A trailing lead sounds quite good, she would lunge on it so don't think i will tie to the radiator!

thank you penny, I know re homing is not a good option as I would hate for her to hurt someone else, my thoughts were if i could find a home that was quiet and she were the only dog maybe. I would still want involement with her and would only do it on trial basis first.
My initial thing of going to vet was to discuss whether having her pts was necessary, I am around most of the time so we manage it but if I'm not here then it can get problematic. Its also making visitors understand what she's like, it doesn't matter what you say to them they all think they are the ones she is going to be ok with! they think I am mean by shutting in a cage or the utility room because Mabel just barks. I know I am being responsible.

Despite what she is like and that she has bitten my daughter a few years ago, my daughter is horrified that i could think of having her pts. she makes me feel terrible and i do anyway. after all she is my dog, i love her.

I can't offer any advice, but I can tell you, you are not alone. I was in tears last week with Hattie's behaviour (home-bred dog) and I'm in a similar position to you, I'm not sure how much more I can take, and I really don't think re-homing is an option, so it's a case of manage the situation or pts. Hattie is currently muzzled in the house as she will fly at the other dogs if the doorbell goes, or if there's something on the telly that makes a jangling noise, if she see's something etc........

At other times she's the sweetest dog, very playful, but the constant tension is not nice. Walking her is a nightmare, with lunging and barking.

I wish you luck in whatever you decide, it's an awful situation to be in, and I wouldn't wish it on even my worst enemy.

Take care x

Lorripop,

First off, I would go back to the APBC and tell this person where you are at. What would be their advice? In my view they are better placed than your vet to advise on PTS. If you feel you are just being squeezed for money without the necessary support please do say here and I would also advise that you express this direct to the APBC too. Did this person really only suggest muzzling the dog? What about clicker training, counterconditioning, long lines and tie outs?

I do feel that to help this dog you will need expert advice. It is interesting to consider that she appears better with the elderly couple and it would be useful to think through what the differences might be - quieter, fewer dogs, fewer people, fewer stimuli full stop. Nonetheless, the danger for me would be that if she lived with them all her bad habits might emerge once she got her paws under the table, so to speak. Again, I'd take advice on that from a beahviourist who can see the dog in situ.

Could you say what breed Mabel is? There is no doubt that some terriers can be so reactive that they are like psycho dogs on speed and they are really hard to live with and to manage. From what you say however, it sounds like you can predict with some accuracy how she will behave according to situation and that in the 'right' circumstances she is reliable? Is this correct. For me the PTS decision would rely to some extent on her predictability and, in turn, whether it is more or less clear what triggers her 'bad' behaviour. If this is pretty much a known quantity then I would argue, at my safe distance, that with the right training/help
there should be a light at the end of a very long tunnel. But it is easy for me to say and I do not underestimate what you are going through in any way and finding the right behaviourist may not be easy either.

Lorripop,

I just wanted to add that whilst her behaviour might be fear/anxiety/control freakery it might also be she has her wires a bit crossed and is both hyper territorial and egged on by those feeling into full terrier killing mode.

So many terriers are set off at ankles and feet by the movement alone and it becomes an enjoyable habit. In a similar way the in and out movement of sweeping and lawn mowers can set off the terrier killing frenzy, even in relatively well mannered dogs. It could be that Mabel is one of those dogs that has not got very good impulse control and she gets overwhelmed by the urge to do what terriers do and possibly finds the fury and energy release rather rewarding. I wonder if this is what your APBC person meant about neurological issues?

It also occurs to me that having a pack emboldens her. Is she bossy with them?

she is nervous of the hoover and will bite it if it comes close to her, she will chase & react to bikes, cars etc, never my mop though. I understand the terrier instinct to chase and catch as I have 3 other terriers but she is by the worst. What I struggle with is that she wont do it to me, my husband , my son and normally my daughter (occasionally mabel will start and she has to say her 'its me Mabel its me' and then all is well) but she will do it to everyone else even those she knows well. It is as if she wants them to stop moving but sadly she is too forceful on her apprehensions.

She isn't at all bossy with the other dogs, she doesn't bother with them unless say one is having a grumble over a bone then she's in to see what's going on and will get herself involved in a fight it occurs but she never starts it.
I have tried putting the others out when visitors come to see if she reacts differently but she doesn't.

I guess it could just be habit thing now as well as she has done it for so long. I wish I could get into her mind! I always say if she were a person she could be schizophrenic but at least i could treat her with tablets. If she were physically ill and struggling I would pts but as its more psychological illness its not easy to reason this idea in your head.

She might not necessarily be as bad wherever she is - it could be that the environment, with knowing visitors are going to be coming, people coming and going etc, is too much for her and she would possibly be much better and happier in a home with few or no visitors.  She does sound extremely stressed where she is.  Homes with no visitors or very few visitors do exist - my home is one of them, I get at most a couple of visitors a year but unfortunately I don't have space for another dog at the moment.

Finding that right home though is going to be very difficult, and therein lies the problem - she'd be stuck in your environment while you look and that's the rub: the stress that causes her may not be justifiable given how long that home might take to pop up.

freelancer
thank you for your response. Yes the behaviourist did suggest clicker training and Mabel (scottie) can respond to clicker easily when there are no other distractions, we have used it on walks but now i use the look at me command and have the walking more controlable. I just want the house thing sorted.

Money is not a problem to go back to behaviourist but I am just reluctant as unless I made contact with her she never followed up on Mabel. It is easy to write all these instructions down of what to do and initially we did them all but as time goes on the 'household' forgets to do it or cant be bothered because too much is involved esp with getting children to do things and keep them up.

I'm sure mabel knows that someone is coming because her muzzle goes on or the thundershirt gets put on etc so I feel she is worked up a bit by these things in the first place.
Visitors are scared so to get them to throw her treats even when muzzled is not easy. My mum is so scared of her now.

the older couple are quieter household and I have said for a while I think Mabel would suit that sort of lifestyle, less stressful.

I think her reaction to your daughter indicates that it is in part habit. You could go round and round trying to figure out exactly what is going on, it may be fear, it may be a mixture of things, I doubt you'll ever truly know. You sound so worn out with it all that I would honestly suggest you go back to the APBC person to give them an update and talk through what your options are. Of anyone, they are in a position to advise/share from the perspective of knowledge. All of us here are just guessing and I don't think that really helps you.

Okay, I think you have nailed it when you say that your busy home with lots going on has not allowed you to follow through consistently on the behavioural advice. You've had a bit of a breakthrough with the 'watch me' command outside and that indicates that consistent, dedicated, long term training would help. This is the big problem- from what you say there are indicators that this dog could become a lot more manageable but it needs the support of all the family and you seem to be saying that will not work.

Yes, I think you are right, the thunders shirt and muzzle are probably now cues for what is to come. Plus you have two very scared people around. All rather stressy and not helping her or you.

Do you think this elderly couple would be able to do some of the training the behaviourist suggested- do they have what it takes?

Sorry if I seem to be contradicting myself but every new bit of information you give slightly changes things, if you see?

I'd still go back to the APBC person just to talk things through.

I will email the behaviourist then and let her know where we are at, but will still go to vets and get their view. I trust the vet I see and like her approach to things.

We did do everything she recommended but just couldn't keep it up for long length of time that was required, though we do still use a muzzle and DAP diffusers. I had instructions to walk her separately and with the pack which i did but some days i didn't have enough hours to do 2 walks!

I feel terrible now as maybe its all me not continuing with everything. The behaviourist did say it would be long process and not an overnight fix and a lot of of work on our part which perhaps we haven't totally done.

What does it mean when Mabel does a lot of tongue flicking/nose licking?? she does do this even when in lounge with us but normally after charging about with her mum or son & treating our lounge like training circuit!!

Whatever else you do in the long run, in the short run I would think you need to make some other arrangements for your dogs on Wednesday such as a day in kennels as all day to 6pm is far too long for any dog to cope with. 
A kennel will not be phased by your dogs behaviour and will manage her fine I am sure.

They will be fine as will get their hours walk before we go and breaky, they have a dog flap and a apart from one, which my mum said she would have, the others are 8, 10,10 & 13 so just sleep! they wouldn't get any thing more than that in the kennels plus be shut in in a much smaller area, my kitchen utility is huge & warm. Mabel will be so distressed and stressed by the kennels, when I have taken her before she sticks to my legs like a child to its mum on the first day of playschool!

have just emailed the behaviourist.

thanks for all the help so far.

Lorripop,

Don't feel bad, you are doing the best you can. She sounds like a dog with fairly special requirements and though I said there are clues that she could become more manageable that is not a definite. This is why I feel that despite your misgivings you are better to have expert input from someone that has actually seen your dog and spent some time with her and with you. If you are unhappy or feel a lack of support then I would really bring it up with the APBC behaviourist. It doesn't have to be confrontational I would just say that you are feeling very alone and at sea and need some step by step guidance in order to come to a decision about your dog's future that is in her best interests as well as yours.

well the vet was good, listened to everything, re read the behaviourist report and she is going to speak to the nurse that specialises in behavioural problems and will get back to me to see if more can be done along with starting some drug that is an anti depressent but works with training techniques.
we did discuss PTS and at the minute we will hold off. She agreed some dogs just cant be cured and I shouldn't blame myself and also that re homing sounds good but it takes time finding the right home and then no gurantee Mabel would become like it after a while so a difficult one to call.

thank you all for responding, i know you cant decide for me but its good to be able to share thoughts.

I have just read this from start to finish and I do think this dog could be helped, and be okay. As the behaviourist said, there is no such thing as a quick fix, and you have realised yourself that you did not stick to the programme consistently enough or for long enough. It also sounds to me as if she is stressed by living in a pack, and would do better in a quieter home with a set routine. Finding that home could be difficult, but hopefully not impossible, and your idea of her going on trial initially and keeping in touch is good.
I see you mention she has a son?I am a bit surprised you bred from her when you see her as having behavioural problems.

yes i did breed from her but did a lot of research for the correct stud plus was desperate to keep my showing going and build my own name etc.
please i dont want to get lectured on this as know it probably wasnt the best thing to do but my Stanley is just super, like his grandma not a bit like Mabel and I am in touch with all the pups owners and none are like her. He is now 18mths and is a gorgeous boy.

yes Mabel is trainable to a certain degree with everyone all involved over many many months and believe me I have tried, i am not a defeatest honest but after a while with little improvement you doubt what you are doing so things slip. she is stressed so want to eliviate this for her as much as i can.

>I feel terrible now as maybe its all me not continuing with everything.

Lorri - don't beat yourself up!  Your post shows that you so obviously care.  And no dog owner is perfection (except in their dogs eyes!)  :-)

I'm one of the dog owners that has no visitors!  I do have a dog sitter during the day, but that is while I'm at work.  Apart from that, it is only when I have pups that potential puppy owners come.

I have a houseful of dogs, and I would be in a spin if I had your problem..  I think you have enough on your plate.  The nose licking is so obviously a very stressed girl.  A quiet household with no other dogs would give your girl chance to be re-assessed.  Would the older couple have her for a trial run?

Lorripop,

I too had noticed that you had bred from Mabel but feel now is not the time or place.

Let us know if the APBC person comes back to you.

The use of an anti depressant may help but only if it is used in tandem with a highly consistent programme of intervention. It is not in itself a cure.

As Jean suggested the nose licking may be stress, but I do not want to diagnose blind and at distance and send you off in the wrong direction.

Like people some dogs are just wired up to be 'nervy/hyper' so  Mabel may be constantly reacting to all the stimuli around her- she hasn't learned, like most of us do, to ignore non-threatening stimuli and once she is triggered into action finds it hard to calm down again. This may simply be how she is made and it is a kind of fault in the system, if you like, in that it does not really help her to function in the busy environment that is your home. If she were a rescue I would suggest that she might be undersocialised but you bred her and kept her and she had the same start as your other 'normal' dogs. All this might suggest it is her, but again, your behaviourist is best placed to figure this out.

I think you should ask the behaviourist nurse and the APBC person about rehoming, possibly to this elderly couple (if they are willing?) and see what they say. 

Very best of luck.

thanks for all this help & guidance.
I have not heard back from the behaviourist but I only sent the email yesterday so she maybe out or a way.

The vet did say the antidepressants would only work in conjunction with further training from me & a behaviourist so I am aware of that, just wish I could start them and get them in her system!

To be honest I don't think I did socialise properly as she was first show dog and I was so intense on getting her to ring craft and being quite serious over it all. I started at 12 weeks at the ringcraft and not sure she found it fun at all, she certainly began to dislike to the shows more and more by grumbling on the table then eventually snapping at which point I called it a day.

The older couple may well take her on as they enjoy having and have had the breed for many years until recently getting a border terrier. I am going to phone them and tell them Mabel's options and hopefully they will offer to take on a trial, they always have her if we go away but as they are older not sure they want 2 dogs full time. It is a lovely quiet house right on the forest with minimal visitors but if they do have people visit they know exactly what Mabes is like because I have been very honest and open with them. It would be fantastic if they would have her so paws crossed they will think about it.

Freelance, we are all warned about internet scams yet for some reason on dog and some other forums many people seem to ignore the warning signs, this is not the first user to loose out with APBC yet you keep on sugesting she goes back to them, I want to know are you an APBC member promoting APBC services?

For the record APBC was started 21 years ago, they were boming in the first part of 2000-2006 appx mainly from anonymous recvomendations from sites such as this, users were loosing money to them all over the place, but, word gets round, APBC have an earned bad reputation, so bad that there are ONLY 49 members still left  after 21 years of trading, with numerous non results or disasterous results -only 49 members still trading after 21 years of promoting themselves, pet owners caught on to them some years and they are on their way out, unfortunatly many dogs were lost as a result - heres a link to one case where a dog died whilst in APBC treatment, they have been slammed all over facebook, written as a warning to others from someone who once was stupid enough to take notice of anonymous recomendations to an APBC member, I almost lost my dog as a result, below is someone who did loose their dog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Kw9QdXHqQ

>written as a warning to others from someone who once was stupid enough to take notice of anonymous recomendations to an APBC member, I almost lost my dog as a result,

Can you give us more details of your accusations, Hethspaw/Denis?

[url=]ONLY 49 members still left [/url]
Funny, I counted 83.

I would have thought the fact there aren't hundreds of APBC members is an indication of their high standards.

> I too had noticed that you had bred from Mabel but feel now is not the time or place.
>
>

I'm sorry, I am not trying to be unpleasant but I think this is important. I am, of course, new on here, and haven't posted much, but I was attracted to this forum because it stresses responsible breeding. I am shocked that anyone can even contemplate killing a bitch as an option because of lifelong behavioural problems when that same bitch was deemed to be sound enough of temperament to breed from 18 months earlier.
Incidentally, as I said in my earlier post, I think Mabel would be absolutely fine in the right home with the right handling-- she does not sound like an insoluble case to me, so I was upset at the replies suggesting killing her would be better than rehoming her. It is not always irresponsible to rehome a dog if the home she is in does not suit her. It is often difficult to find the right home, and requires time and involvement, but that's dogs.

> It is not always irresponsible to rehome a dog if the home she is in does not suit her. It is often difficult to find the right home, and requires time and involvement, but that's dogs.

That was the gist of my post too - it can be hard to find the right home for such a dog but they do exist.  I've taken on two biters and two nearly-biters here (one of those was to be PTS) and they are/were fine - just a change in environment/lifestyle did most of the work for 3 of them.

Some dogs are just too damaged to help but I don't think this is one of them.

Zan,

I didn't think you were trying to be unpleasant and I'm in agreement with you really, but just felt the owner needed support right now. I think she is keen to rehome the bitch if possible and the elderly couple she stays with sound a possibility. I think with the right support and advice in situ there could be a happy ending. I very much hope so :) But it is very hard to judge these things at a distance and just on the basis of emails, I hope you agree.

JG,

Note that as the EC thread starts to warm up again, the anti Casey/Bristol theme strikes up too. Deja Vu.

It must be the phase of the moon.

I have read recent replies and feel I should respond.
In regards to breeding her, I did not do this on whim or because I wanted puppies just to sell. I checked a lot of things first within my breed and found out that there are quite a few that have some of the issues mabel has such as grabbing visitors feet when they come in etc. when I discussed mabel with anyone at shows the comments were always along the lines of 'that sounds like typical scottie' so I just presumed Mabel wasn't overly abnormal in her behaviour and that we had been very fortunate with her mum who is nothing like her at all. The other point was as I have said earlier that looking back perhpaps I had not socialised her enough as a pup. I looked for a calm stud which I found and she was bred for me to keep a pup for showing.

My choice has never been to 'kill' her but as I have tried many things to help the situation was becoming desparate in knowing what to do. Like I have said before if only she could just accept a couple more permanent people of our household that would be enough for me, I can cope when what i call proper visitors come. My concern was also that she doesn't seem to remember people even if they pop out the room for the shortest of time.

I have re contacted the behaviourist but have heard nothing in 3 days so will try phoning instead. I have aslo put it to mabel's holiday home carers about having her permanently and also contacted my friend in the scottish terrier rescue who says she will chat with me at the weekend.

I hope this explains myself a bit better and not looked on as the irresponsible dog breeder or owner. I have had dogs all my life and never once before had this problem or giving up on a dog but sometimes these situations come into our life and its not just black and white easy answers.

I am sad I am failing my dog, but am going to take vets advice and start her on anti depressents & try the training again.

> I am sad I am failing my dog, but am going to take vets advice and start her on anti depressents

Get some for yourself too hun :)  I'm sending you a virtual hug

It's quite brave to put your hand up and tell people you're having a bad time, and that your fear you are failing your dog.  I can quite see how you've arrived at this point - sometimes you just muddle along don't you...

I won't give behavioural advice but do look at your household, your set up with entrances and exits, her trigger points, how/when she gets access to people etc.  Do your visitors just let themselves in, do they ring a doorbell, can they avoid her?  Have a talk to your immediate family and see if there are things you can do to effect some separation, reduce the element of surprise, contain her (or your visitors) in a safe area.  It's not the whole answer of course but it might just give you something practical to focus on, and help you to get some control over the events that are stressing both you and your dog.

Hopefully your behaviourist will get back to you soon.  Good luck

Sorry i haven't read all the way through this post but have you had your girl fully health checked incl. full bloods for hypothyroidsm etc

Hi
No blood tests done and not suggested by vet, I think as its been going on for quite a while we would have noticed other things if it were hypothyroid.

Behaviourist has got back to me but was a bit wishy washy so I have asked more direct questions in the hope of getting more help.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Hi<br />No blood tests done and not suggested by vet, I think as its been going on for quite a while we would have noticed other things if it were hypothyroid.<br />

One of the reasons i mentioned this is because my youngest bitch who is only 17 mths, has aggressive behavioural problems with my other dogs (although not the same as yours) & on strong advice from a few very dog savvy people, my vet has taken initial blood tests which have shown a very high cholestrol result @ 8.9% (should be below 6%) & raised Bio acids which is linked to liver function.  Because of these results further bloods have been sent to a lab for testing for cushings disease, hypothyroidsm & other diseases (of which my brain couldn't take in at the time).
She has shown no signs whatsover of being unwell, although obviously she is.  I am now waiting the next stage of results due next wednesday.
I think it is worth you telling your vet you need full blood tests.  My vet was almost certain i was wasting his time, it just goes to show you really never know.  Before the blood results i was also pretty sure there was nothing wrong with her.

As Wendy says I'd ask for full bloods. Even if they all come back normal at least you will know there is nothing wrong physically. Most good behaviourists would have asked for health results anyway (I know the one's I saw with Hattie did) before they'd start on a course of behavioural treatment.

I agree with full blood tests and also I would go to an eye specialist and have her eyes checked as there could be a problem there too.

oh ok thanks for that will phone the vet on monday and ask.
Would she have not deteriorated though in the last 2yrs if it were cushings (prong in our breed) or hypothyroid? the only thing that has changed is that she wants to eat all the time and licks everyone bowl to death after their dinners, she was such a fussy dog in her early years, but this increase in food interest has been since her spay last year and her behaviour started a long long way before this.

The full blood tests will check for various health problems.  Sorry i can't remember all the one's the vet mentioned.  I just think it is def. worth getting her checked out, as i said on the previous post i would never have thought my bitch is unwell.  Sometimes there are just no obvious signs of illness exc. in their behaviour.  Its also worth having her checked with an eye specialist.

You do need a FULL thyroid panel to rule out hypothyroid, and aggression is one of the symptoms.

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/bizarre_behavior.htm

I agree that these tests should be done, however it would be truly shocking if the APBC person had not looked at and discounted these options first.

I have rung the vet and am awaiting a call back to discuss these tests, but as her problems have been since quite young (probably got worse) are they likely to be the cause? surely she would be quite ill by now if she's had any of them for a few years??

Behaviourist is APBC and did discuss health teats but thought it was better to try with training first and spaying, I think becuase it wasn't sudden aggression but prolonged same behaviour over a few years. Not heard back from her since she replied to my email and I emailed her back with more direct questions.

I would still urge you Lorripop to go ahead with the full bloods.
If you read the link about hypothyroid that Brainless has posted it might help you decide.  I am now even more convinced that this is what my youngest bitch has after reading it.  Hopefully i will hear by wednesday with her results & will let you know.
It could be there are many, many dogs that go undiagnosed because of no obvious signs & its all put down to behaviour problems.
As my vet suggested to me that hypothyroid is not usual in younger dogs, it now kind of makes me think that perhaps it could take several years to show full symptoms & obviously the earlier the dog is treated the better.

> surely she would be quite ill by now if she's had any of them for a few years??

Not necessarily - sometimes deterioration can take a long time.

Just as an example with the thyroid (not for aggression, but as an example of timeframes) - my Remy started slowing down at about 2 years old; it took me 3 years to get a hypothyroid diagnosis; and a further 3 years of totally unsuccessful treatment to get him on a medication that works.

In that time his decline has been very gradual - if you did a before and after then the difference would be obvious and dramatic, but over 6 years it was barely noticeable until I got him on decent meds - since then, old behaviours have sprung back to life and made me realise just how ill he was.  He's also gotten more tolerant of behaviour he doesn't like (being humped or having his bits sniffed) and I never put that down to his thyroid.

But he never looked out-and-out ill at all - just lazy.

saw the vet (had to go with my springer) discussed mabel and although she thought Mabel didnt really show signs that we could pin point down to Hypothyroid or chushings (it maybe from the spay) she did say it was worth doing as she would hate for us to make big decisions on Mabels future without excluding medical causes first. I do think she thought I was a bit mad but when you tell them you have the money and want it done there wasn't much objection plus although she siad mabel was too young for cushings she did say there are always exceptions!

Booked for next monday.

I am hoping to have a vet free March!!!!

Good luck that it is Hypothyroid, as in a way if that is what is causing the issues, medication controls it very well and the long term outlook is very good.

My friends longest living Doberman both (unrelated) had Hypothyroid, diagnosed at around two years of age, and were on soloxine for 12 years.

Out of interest did you have any problems getting her in whelp?  As Hypothyroid can interfere with fertility, causing bitches not to ovulate regularly.

quick up date from behaviourist, she is now saying that Mabel is unlikely to change as any improvement with her would have been in the initial weeks when we were all committed to the training. She is now saying that Mabel sees daughter's boyfriend and my stepson as an entertainment for herself, she knows they are scared and uses it. she is not convinced that it is fear with Mabel as Mabel knows these people well enough.

I am a little confused as the initial assessment was that she was stressed and anxious but I guess as time has gone on it is now just a habit for everyone anyone else except the core family. She didn't feel that Mabel would do it in a new home (the older couple that look after her) as there is no history of intimidation but they would have to put some training in. 

The behaviourist doubts any drugs would be of benefit to Mabel now and if we cannot continue then perhaps a new home could be the only way for us to have a family home where we dont worry about shutting mabel out or having to get the muzzle on her, this is tricky if I am out and the kids just come in.

My D's b/f has a new technique in that he comes in waving the muzzle at her in a friendly type of way and because she doesn't like the muzzle she stays away from him!.

No problems with getting in whelp, she loved her time with the stud!