We're looking into this breed for having about a year or so down the line.  I can get breed standard from the KC and have some knowedge of the breed and its complications but what i don't know is a good reputable breeder/s to start at.  Who does the tests and is clear in their lines.  How far back in the lines would you take into account for clear lines.

I know not to nessararily look to show winners for safety in my research as i know myself some selection pratices; this bit isn't up for discussion, I'm ruling it out as a place to start.  All the better if they are doing well in the ring.

Which tests would be more important, do they do all the tests or are some only recommended.  One breeder said one particular dog wasn't tested for Syringomyelia but the line was clear by tests and 4gens back.  This one would be my worst fear to inherit. 

How would you grade the severity on the other problems they can have, such as MVD, does that come in grades.

Can anyone recommend a good book to get me started thats nicely balanced.

I know there's some good cavi owners on here and know the breed.

Thanks in advance

Which of the two breeds are you wanting the CKCS is a very different dog to the KCS?

Yes indeed Cavaliers ad Charlies are very different, so my reply is for Cavaliers. You may be able to get breeder recommendations if you PM tooolz, or I can recommend the breeder of mine if you send me a private message. (I've had 3 Cavaliers from her and the first lived to 15.) Don't get stuck on distance -if you find a pup where everything is right, travel for it. Mine's just a pet but I'd have gone anywhere in the country for the right one.

When I lost my old Cavalier nearly 2 years ago I was determined to only buy a pup from parents that followed the protocols. So you want parents no less than 2 ½ years old when mated for the first time, and grandparents no less than 5, and all (as in all 6 dogs) still heart clear (as in no grade of a murmur at all). Then both parents MRI scanned for SM, and ideally grandparents as well -my dog has 3 of the 4 grandparents scanned and both parents. I would NOT assume a breeding dog or bitch was okay just because generations before them had been tested -not enough is known about the inheritance.

MVD is graded 1 to 6 and you only breed from dogs with no murmur at all so 0. 50 % of all Cavaliers have a murmur by the age of 5 and something like 98 % by the age of 10, so you're unlikely to avoid it entirely -although dogs do exist that never get one. The main things are to a) get them as late in life as possible b) get as low grades as possible. Badly bred Cavaliers will often get grades from 3-6 as young as 4, which is why you don't want to buy anything from a breeder that doesn't heart test their dogs every year.

If you go to the breed club website http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/ you will find information and also a list of heart clear Cavaliers aged over 5.  http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/hearts11/hearts11_a.html There is currently no list of SM clear Cavaliers (the only list that exists just shows some dogs that have been tested, does not give results) but there are plans afoot for the KC to include this on their website in he not too distant future. Also have a look at the Golden Oldies pages http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/oldies/gold_oldies.php -one page for dogs aged over 11 still alive (starting with the oldest -and it does give breeder and parentage). One list for dogs that lived to over 11 but has died -you will find dogs aged over 18 on both!

> Who does the tests and is clear in their lines.

There are NO clear lines of SM or MVD and anyone saying there are ..are lying or totally ignorant of the facts.
Marianne summed it all up very nicely .

That's a really neat webpage

opps it's gone now you'll need to ask Toolz by PM

> ">Marianne summed it all up very nicely .

Yes it did, made sense just how I like it :)

Thank you for your replies, I didn't realise (at this stage) heart testing was yearly.  We are looking at both breeds at the minute but hubby likes CKCS more and I'm quite partial.  I will PM you all for the info, hopefully get a good start and get to know someone to have a pup from.

Will find some more out about SM to hopefully minimise the it occurring.  I understand ther is an op to relieve it; again I would research that to see if it good or bad for the dog (assuming) I ever come across it.

Have looked at the web pages, They're lovely and very imformative.  Thanks Marrianne

Excellent advice from Marianne and as always she is spot on with her information!

Only thing that I have to add is that you need to think about what type of personality traits would suit your family as cavs and charlies are quite different.
Generally cavs love everyone and everything and are very gregarious little dogs who can adapt to most enviroments and aren't easily phased by the hustle and bustle of family life.

Charlies are a more reserved and can be a little more hesitant of people and dogs they are not familiar with.They are more likely to attach themselves to familiar people wheras cavs will love everyone and not even look back as they trot along behind someone they have never met before with a happy waggy tail behind them!

Having had Cavaliers for 18 years now and done my absolute best to ensure that my dogs have come from lines like this:

"So you want parents no less than 2 ½ years old when mated for the first time, and grandparents no less than 5, and all (as in all 6 dogs) still heart clear (as in no grade of a murmur at all). Then both parents MRI scanned for SM, and ideally grandparents as well -my dog has 3 of the 4 grandparents scanned and both parents. I would NOT assume a breeding dog or bitch was okay just because generations before them had been tested -not enough is known about the inheritance".

Are there any lines that are as clean as that now? In my searching over the years, I almost found it increasingly impossible to find a line that was honest and clear of all those issues.  Alfie will be my last Cavvie sadly, he is 5 this year and has (touch wood) not shown any signs of a heart problem.  I hold my breath every time he has his annual check to see if this will be the year he has developed on. However he has had chronic dry eye for the last three years and is very 'old' dog at 5.  My last two Cavaliers died of heart failure of 10 and 6 years (their parents followed the protocol for heart testing/age etc and it didnt make any difference, despite following a really healthy diet and weight from day one with them) and looking back Im pretty sure Rosie my first cavvie had SM as well.  Not something I EVER want to go through again.

"So you want parents no less than 2 ½ years old when mated for the first time, and grandparents no less than 5, and all (as in all 6 dogs) still heart clear (as in no grade of a murmur at all). Then both parents MRI scanned for SM, and ideally grandparents as well

> Are there any lines that are as clean as that now?

Yes mine. All on my website and all certification up to date.

A rarity I will admit but they are out there.
The biggest problem it would seem is that people like me dont breed enough and seldom - if ever - have anything for sale.

My current two cavs are 7 and 9 and neither have a heart murmur or any other health issues at present,although this could change with time as with any other dog as it ages.

They certainly aren't old for their age and both still compete at agility.
Infact Poppy the 7year old competes at grade 7 at kc events and champ at uka events and is showing no signs of slowing down and can hold her own against the other breeds she meets on the circit and just recently she won a grade 6/7 class at our club show and she had to compete against at least two border collies and a kelpie as she is one of  only a handfull of small dogs of that grade who is still competitive at our club.

So it is possible to find healthy cavs with a bit of research

Infact Poppy the 7year old competes at grade 7 at kc events and champ at uka events and is showing no signs of slowing down and can hold her own against the other breeds she meets on the circit and just recently she won a grade 6/7 class at our club show and she had to compete against at least two border collies and a kelpie as she is one of  only a handfull of small dogs of that grade who is still competitive at our club.

That is so lovely to hear! One of my proudest moments was passing Good Citizen Gold with my Rufus when he was 9.

Hi

Thanks for all the replies, sorry not pm'd anyone yet, had a busy weekend.  I've found them insightful and a great help in where to start.

i think it would be a CKCS as it would have to get along with the family and a busy household.  i wouldn't want to bring a dog in to be misserable and unhappy.  I nearly rescued a KCS from a rescue place, i use the term rescue place loosly.  They gave me such a look to melt me, I've never forgot it.  They wanted taking home and let me know :)  

>The biggest problem it would seem is that people like me dont breed enough and seldom - if ever - have anything for sale.

Lol very true Tooolz! I'd add in a vote for the Cavalier too, best dogs in the world! Like others have said, just make sure that all the tests are done - a decent breeder should be happy and forthcoming with showing you their dogs' certificates. Of course it doesn't guarantee 100%, but it gives you a much better chance.

My sister had to have her 8 year old CKCS put to sleep yesterday due to MVD, it's a horrible disease so please do your homework!

So sorry to hear that. I lost my Henry 2 years ago at 8 years old from it. His breeder had done everything right, but it popped up anyway out of nowhere. I still wouldn't have missed those 8 years with him for anything!