Breeders should only aim to 'break even' 12 16% 
Yes, even if this means selling at a loss. 1 1%

A lot will also depend on how you calculate break even or sell at a loss.

As has already been said you may sell pups for more than the cost of rearing the litter itself or the associated health testing costs.  The breeder will also have the costs of keeping the dog bitch to breeding age and the rest of it's life.  Even if we only count it's breeding life the possible surplus made on say two to 4 litters in a bitches breeding life (up to 8 years), would add another say £1000 a year (the figure I have heard quoted as to what a dog costs to keep a year) onto costs to be spread between the pups.

I know that even if I break even on a litter or have a surplus keeping my dogs (we aren't counting shows or even the cost of the 2 - 3 veterans) I am seriously out of pocket.

I certainly can't afford regular holidays, as the cost of caring for the dogs makes them not feasible.  My home decor takes a bashing, not to mention garden.

Why do you think Back yard breeders and Puppy farmers try to get hold of adult unspayed bitches, or breed from them too young, then get rid of them once their breeding life is over, the don't carry passengers, most breeders who have been in their breed longer than a dogs lifetime will have half or more of their dogs technically passengers/purely pets.

> What I don't like is where breeders charge more do to color, saying rare ect, or show puppies. You don't no if the pup has show
> potential at just 2 months of age.
>
>

That is usually the sign of a 'not good' breeder, and a reason to run far and fast. 

>or show puppies. You don't no if the pup has show potential at just 2 months of age.

Actually yes, you can tell if a pup has 'show potential' at younger than 2 months. You can also tell (in breeds where markings/colour are part of the standard) if pups have no show potential. What you can't do is know whether that potential will be fulfilled as the pup grows and matures.

By using the" hanging technique" at birth it is possible to spot which pups are the best and follow them through to 8 weeks and get someone not known to the pups to evaluate them for you and barring any illness, accident or poor/wrong diet the order should be the same, I have to admit I was sceptical till I got to try it on my own pups and those of other breeders. 

The pups will go through an ugly/gangly stage but if they were good at 8 weeks then they should be good again when they come out the other side.

In Pat Hastings. " Puppy Puzzle" DVD she "hangs" the pups during her intensive evaluation at 8 weeks old, not easy to do with the bigger breeds.

I mentioned this technique to my mentor, she said her Mum(joint affix owners) had been doing it for years but she herself hadn't really bothered.

I love that DVD and purchased the book which I have passed about to friends who have litters..

I have spoken to Pat and she is lovely, I needed to make sure the DVD she was sending me would work on UK players.

I have dachsie breeder friends in Canada and US who have been to her seminars, one got her litter evaluated for free as part of the demonstration, she was lucky they were exactly 8 weeks old on the day of the seminar.

but regardless do you think puppies should be sold at differential prices. 

All mine are sold first and foremost as pets, all at the same price, anything they achieve over and above being a pet is a bonus and they all cost the same to rear.

I am sure I have sold dogs capable of doing well in the ring or being good working dogs (if hunting wasn't banned) that are purely companions,.

> By using the" hanging technique" at birth it is possible to spot which pups are the best

Please explain what is meant by hanging technique???  I have a rather disturbing picture in my mind ;)

Barbara no cruelty involved I can assure you.

With the thumb and index finger of one hand hold the pup around the neck below the jaw, with your index finger and middle finger of the other hand popped between back legs,either side of vulva/scrotum, lift the pup up, keep the back level and it should hang limp and you can see its proportions and early conformation.

Hope this makes sense, trying to describe what to do isn't easy.

Any queries feel free to ask

Oh I have always done that, never knew it had a name, LOL

All my pups are priced the same regardless of sex, colour or pattern, no claims of rarity, no dachsie is rare these days as even the creams that appeared in the 80's are widely available these days so would not pay or charge a premium for those. 

Well there you go then.

Different breeds have different customs. With Rhodesian Ridgebacks, someone who charges the same for mismarked and correctly marked puppies would be regarded as being odd!

I have never produced a mismark, the commonest problem being white appearing on the chest, the breed standard says it is acceptable but not desirable, so if 2 dogs were level pegging in the ring re conformation etc and one had white on it the other dog would be placed ahead.

I may reduce the price of a monoorchid pup but as the second one will probably drop eventually I'd have to think about it.

>With the thumb and index finger of one hand hold the pup around the neck below the jaw, with your index finger and middle finger of the other hand popped between back legs,either side of vulva/scrotum, lift the pup up,

How is the chest of the puppy being supported? Surely its front end isn't just being held up by its throat?

There is no more support needed, too much support would mess with what you are trying to see, the pups aren't heavy at that age.

> Breeders should only aim to 'break even' 12 16%  Yes, even if this means selling at a loss. 1 1% A lot will also depend on how you calculate break even or sell at a loss.

Yes I admit the poll probably isn't very well designed/worded as it could have been, I'm not very good at surveys! :-(  I just thought it might be interesting to have some sort of 'visual' response. If anyone wants to do a better one I'd be delighted :-)

The general consensus seems to be that while the price of a puppy broadly correlates to 'breeding costs' (depending on what is factored in) it does also depend on what the breed 'convention' is, i.e. mismarks/show potential etc.

In my breed for example, a potential show pup will be the same price as a pet pup as they are a very late maturing breed and it is very difficult to guage how a puppy will turn out, even for experienced breeders. Dogs are sometimes a bit cheaper than bitches but all colours are the same price, even the 'rarer' ones. Older puppies are often cheaper and mismarks as well although that depends more on the individual.

However, there is a difference in price depending on the area of the country, sometimes as much as a couple of hundred pounds. This is explained by food, vet fees etc being dearer in the south, but conversely breeders in Scotland probably pay a lot more in fuel costs, travelling to shows, stud dogs etc so overall 'outlay' is probably broadly similar?

Another thought has also occured to me, buying from a show breeder does not just reflect the cost in rearing etc, but also the lifetime commitment most breeders will hopefully be making to the puppy (and new owner). Perusing the internal work 'free ads' (a dangerous pastime) I saw someone needed to rehome their young dog and when questioned whether the 'breeder' would take the dog back, the reply was the 'breeder' considered their duty of care ended when the pup left the premises and virtually said never to get in contact again!! (I suspect it may have been a dealer which is the reason for the inverted commas). Using the car analogy again I suppose it is similar to getting the free breakdown cover and service deals.  A puppy from a responsible breeder comes with a 'support package'.

> Another thought has also occured to me, buying from a show breeder does not just reflect the cost in rearing etc, but also the lifetime commitment most breeders will hopefully be making to the puppy (and new owner). Perusing the internal work 'free ads' (a dangerous pastime) I saw someone needed to rehome their young dog and when questioned whether the 'breeder' would take the dog back, the reply was the 'breeder' considered their duty of care ended when the pup left the premises and virtually said never to get in contact again!! (I suspect it may have been a dealer which is the reason for the inverted commas). Using the car analogy again I suppose it is similar to getting the free breakdown cover and service deals.  A puppy from a responsible breeder comes with a 'support package'.

Spot on!!

> A puppy from a responsible breeder comes with a 'support package'.

and that support package can be costly in time money and heartache for the breeder, especially if as many these days, your dogs are family companions kept in a purely domestic environment, and you do not have kennelling facilities.

My worst nightmare would be the need to take back at short notice a male I have bred while I have girls in season at home.  I have been lucky and never had an unsociable one back, but also a possibility regardless of sex.

It would probably mean I would have to pay to kennel the dog for several weeks.  I have had a 9 year old bitch back that had just been in a fight with the bitch of the person that had offered her a home (unbeknown to me) when the original buyer decided to re-home her after marriage breakdown, and she needed AB's from the Vet.

Last year 4 days before his sister had pups I had a four year old male back at short notice.

Even if the returning dog fits in well, you have to rehabilitate, and then find a new home, possibly deliver it to it's new home etc.

From a puppy buyers view I dare say you are correct tricolourlover that many people are turned away or I guess a more accurate assumption is they are confused by price, as in everything if it can be found cheaper many will buy cheaper it's a fact of life, if there is nothing to explain why there is a price difference people really don't understand, they may just think some prices are inflated.

But, it's like that old saying - "You get what you pay for"

In no way do quality pups need to be reduced as already said work, commitment, time and effort and finance goes into these litters. Unfortunately, many will just choose the cheaper pup and go and buy it not bothering to visit another litter to see first hand the difference to it's rearing and care and type of breeders knowledge and especially the health tests of the chosen breed.

I think it is a good thing particularly on the free adds sites to see the quality pups next to the cheaper pups adds, listing health tests etc, only then can people compare what you get for which price.

but would it be better to lower prices to make owning a puppy from a responsible breeder more realistic for more people?

That is why people save, like the man who wants to buy a diamond ring to propose with he'll save for that, not buy a synthetic stone ring, just because he can afford that straight away and it may look the same in that first inst, it won't be long until it is apparent it is not a diamond.

Plenty of people do buy quality pups the thing is there are not as many breeders of quality pups as there are cheaper bash them out types, so there will always be an overflow to be swooped up by the public anyway, what the public need to start doing is say no, we don't want this type of pup.

Personally, I think the more we can show the differences by advertising side by side, the more the call for everyone to breed in a similar way. A quality pup from a responsible breeder is the correct price, a cheaper pup has something and often many things lacking in it's breeding to rearing to aftercare.

The price does indeed reflect that. :-)

I have done my research on my breeder and asked questions. Oh boy did I ask a lot of questions, and I am proud to say she is the breeder of the pup I will soon have :-). Of course had some help from someone on here to help me make my choice way back.
My breeder doesn't charge differently for pet/show. They also do temperament testing on all pups b4 placed. Glad to say I have 2nd choice (of course them being 1st), and hoping to fly down soon and meet them as well as the puppies parents. I am so excited!! If I don't do show then prob get into tracking or something, but would def like to try a couple show with my boy for sure. A lot to learn on my way, but I no they will be there to help me with all my questions as the puppy grows.

Trying to talk hubby into doing tracking with Moose, think she will def enjoy it, very smart pup.

>too much support would mess with what you are trying to see, the pups aren't heavy at that age.

That would depend on the breed, surely.

>she "hangs" the pups during her intensive evaluation at 8 weeks old, not easy to do with the bigger breeds.

A pup of 9kg (such as my medium-sized breed) being held only by the neck and rear end? No way.

Here is a link to Pat Hastings evaluations and pic of her holding a pup

http://dharobed.com/D_Harobed/AleMalamutes/evaluations.htm

You tube link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ4KiH_hlJk

>Here is a link to Pat Hastings evaluations and pic of her holding a pup

Jeez. :-( That picture looks dreadful. If anyone held one my pups like that they'd be asked to leave the premises immediately, the same way that judges now (thankfully) 'ask' exhibitors who lift their dogs down from the table using lead and tail to leave the ring.

I have to agree with JG.  Just because someone else is doing it or that it gives you the information you desire does not seem to justify it to me. 

In any event, there should be no need whatsoever to hold a pup of that age like that. Once they are old enough to run around properly, you only need to WATCH them so see if they are built properly! A properly built pup will stand correctly and you can always spot them when they stand still for a moment as if you just spend enough time with them, sooner or later they WILL put themselves into a show stand as it is their natural way of standing, having the correct build.

I'd also  query the "correct temperament" position. I would not go for the puppy that submits on its back as a show dog, I will go for the one that fights against it and has plenty of guts! (This WILL depend on breed to some extent, though.) My best show dogs are the ones that as pups were horribly over the top and just as likely to sink their teeth into you. The laid back ones are the ones I send to pet homes. That goes for working as well, and not just the Malinois either. For instance in my last Papillon litter there was one pup that was quite horrible -so much so that he was fighting with his sister and drawing blood, real proper fights, and I let him go to his new home at just 10 weeks of age when normally I'd wait until 14. (This was also the biggest pup in the litter.) That pup is now perfect in temperament and is getting into flyball (yes really, for a 3 kg dog!) and doing really well with it. His more quiet brother that happily accepts being flopped on his back could never do that.

A pup of 9kg (such as my medium-sized breed) being held only by the neck and rear end? No way.

This method I understood is for newborns just after birth when checking them over making notes. 

I always check, collar and write down any identifying marks, how vigorous etc on the litter chart.

I now see it is done with them older and agree I WOULD NOT DO THAT TO ONE OF MINE.

the temprament one I concur with Marianne.  It would be a very wimpy pup of my breed to not offer some resistance to being laid on it's back, and many will act dtached if in a stressful situation, it is the chosen method of dealing with it in my expereince (freeze as opposed to fight or flight).

On the other hand it may be right for a goldie.