> as that generation was brought in from various cuntries and specially selected that once they showed and had their titles that they could then be mated

That all costs a fortune!  That certainly does not sound like a greedy person but one dedicated to maintaining a large and healthy gene pool. 

> no this dog was bought from a breeder

My point is you would expect to pay full price for a stud dog you have no agreement over.

> the agreement only says stud rights

Personally I would think that stud rights means free use of stud, but you and the dogs breeder have to discuss that as it is open to interpretation.

When I had semen collected from a dog and his breeder wanted to keep some I got them to sign an agreement that they could use the straws on one bitch, for one live litter, and then any other usage/live litters would require a stud fee. No amount mentioned for fee as the straws could (in theory) be used 20 years later, so the fee was 'that of a champion dog' at the time. That way we both knew exactly where we stood.

I'm with you, chaumsong.

my point exactly stooge

Sadly at the end of the day you signed the stud rights away so you are really are obligated to stand by it, i would however say that it does sound like they may have taken advantage of you being new to the show world as i think for this you should have been offered him at a reduced price, i would say that you should not end up out of pocket so the breeder should cover your costs. To get our stud we had to sign a contract which states that we cannot sell him and if we no longer need him we have to return him to the breeder for no payment, but we were happy with this to get his top lines. Im not sure how you would stand if you got him neuterd as there may be a loss of earnings/breach of contract issue with the breeder.

> Im not sure how you would stand if you got him neuterd

I would think it was morally wrong to neuter him, he may be absolutely vital in his breeders breeding programme.

> my point exactly stooge

Which point?  That you pay full price when you have no agreement? 
But you did agree something with this breeder it just remains vague just what.
Can you tell us the exact wording in the contract?  All the relevent section referring to the stud work.

the point that yea i paid full price so should expect compense for stud duties .. but if i had paid less than full price she should then expect deducted stud duties. i paid the same for him as all other people did in his litter , but because now he is very succesful and thafter 2 and half years . basically i suppose she waited until he had all his titles  proper breed standard type she now wants to stud him

i havent got the exact words as its with a solicitor at the moment but as this is new to her really i wanted alot of advice on where to go or what my options where . at the moment in talking to a different solicitor he reckons the wording of the document doesnt constitue that she gets stud rights for free

> basically i suppose she waited until he had all his titles  proper breed standard type she now wants to stud him

Of course.  It would generally be the dog with promise that you would let go on a stud contract.  Bearing that in mind it is not unreasonable to get no discount on his price, after all you have been able to purchase a dog that has given you considerable success in the show ring and the possibility of using him at stud yourself.  You would not have had this if you had only got a mediocre dog for the same price as the rest of the buyers probably got paying the same amount.

It may not be his sucsess but his age which has now made her want to use him as 2 and a half is a good age to start stud work for a dog as they are mentaly ready aswell as willin. The trouble you have is that you have agreed to the breeders terms when you brought him its now over two years on.

If you are going to use a solicitor I would be using a specialist dog one.  There are a couple you can find on the internet.  However, I would think very carefully before going down that route because, as I said before, in dog breeding and showing much depends on reputation and a reputation for being sticky about agreements is not one that should actively be pursued :)

I think that as you didn't get any sort of discount off his purchase price, then you shouldn't be expected to knock anything off your boys stud fee even for the breeder.  If this boy is so valuable in her grand scheme of things, then she will pay the appropriate fee.  I do, however, think his 'proving' stud should be free and if the bitch missed, then he should cover her again for free but after that, I think you've done all you need.  It wasn't worded 'free stud' on the contract and you never got him at a discount(which happens in our breed).

I have friends in a breed I used to own/show.  We spent many years 'gifting' studs and puppies to each other to expand the lines but to be honest, I couldn't tell you who owes who what!  I've never thought about it and neither have they.  If you wanted to use a dog, then you did.  If you liked a particulary pup, then you got it.  Brilliant friends in the showing world are few and far between but I would never have taken arrangements up with a stranger like this.

On the other hand, you seem to be new at showing and this seems to be quite a substantial breeder in YOUR breed so I would worry about ruining my rep before I'd even got started what with the legal proceedings.  Can't you just talk about this face to face?  It's obvious it's a misunderstanding on both sides but I'm sure if you explained your side (feeling used and abused), she might see things differently?

thanks seems to be what alot of people is saying and i think its a road worth going down. i think its probably a fair outcome for all

its not thats she a substantial breeder its that shes the only breeder in our island that has these dogs and she has nothing really to compete with and that seems to make her think she is something that she isnt .. as speciality judges have binned some of her exhibits but when she shows agaginst judges in her own area she has nothing that can challenge her

> thanks seems to be what alot of people is saying and i think its a road worth going down. i think its probably a fair outcome for all

Sorry, it is not clear who you are replying to.  Which road are you going and what is a fair outcome?

> its not thats she a substantial breeder its that shes the only breeder in our island that has these dogs and she has nothing really to compete with and that seems to make her think she is something that she isnt ..

She must be taking them further afield and putting them up against decent competition if she has gained titles as you say.

im hoping that yes ok shes had her first stud free and i think that is fair and considering i paid full price i think it is fair that she now pay for her rights to use him as stud or i can have a pick of a litter at some stage and considering she may use him against more than one bitch i think it is fair that that a stud fee at a discounted rate is a fair outcome

she will not show on the uk mainland as she says she wont win and its a waste of her time because the same breederes of her dogs have some sort of rapport with the judges and when she shows in europe they are very criticle but when i have come up against her at shows i have beaten her more times than enough and i think this has a lot to do with it

How did they gain their titles?  Do you have Championships shows on your island?

All good breeders will offer a repeat mating if no live pups are born i think thats fair at the very least, maybe if you tell us the wording of the contract it may help shed some light on it. I know its not what you want to hear but if i had singned a contract giving them stud right i would take it that they have full say over all the stud work that dog is involved with even with your own bitches. AS a couple of people have said reputation is every thing and if you want to progress through the showing/breeding world you need to do everything you can to protect that, if word was to get around that you had broken a breeders contract and gone back on your world no one in your breed would want to deal with you and this makes thing very difficult especially when your getting start, i think i would chalk this one up to experience and try to come to a comprimise with the breeder.

they are basically gaining their titles because she isnt coming up against anything all of the dogs entered are hers even at champ shows and she enters only shows she knows she can win at  which is very unfortunate. when she has shown in the uk her dogs were binned so she stopped showing

this dog to me was a pet first and foremost but i decided after reading and researching his breed that he was good enough to show  and he was he gained a junior title in 7 shows and has also gained his adult title with 21 green starts by the time he was 26 months which to date she had never done with any of her dogs this is what i think she may be clutching on to .i dont intend to go down the professional road of showing as he is again a family pet so really its no skin of my nose .. i just feel she may be taking advantage of it bein gme new to show world etc.

> when she has shown in the uk her dogs were binned so she stopped showing

Still confused.  Do you have Championship shows on your island then? 

yea we do have champ shows again shes not coming up against anything else only her own breeding

> has also gained his adult title with 21 green starts by the time he was 26 months which to date she had never done with any of her dogs

Confused again :)  didn't she breed him?

yea she bred him i paid ful amount for him. when you buy something it belongs to you isnt that the case ?when you want to hire something you pay to lease it , aint that the case?

> yea she bred him i paid ful amount for him. when you buy something it belongs to you isnt that the case ?when you want to hire something you pay to lease it , aint that the case?

I was referring to your comment about his achievements and you saying "she had never done with any of her dogs".   The breeder is generally given some credit in these things :)

I think that as you didn't get any sort of discount off his purchase price, then you shouldn't be expected to knock anything off your boys stud fee even for the breeder.

I would agree with you under normal circumstances when a puppy is bought outright with no contract.  But whether we think the terms are right, wrong or acceptable or not, they are the terms that were agreed at the time, vague though they may be.  Accepting that we are only hearing one side of this situation, to now try to change what was agreed is what is unacceptable and dishonest. 

This breeder has sold a quality, well bred puppy on the condition that she can use him at a later date to put his quality genes back into her line.  She may well have wanted to use him if he'd done nothing more than sit on the sofa at home.  I think that OP is very lucky to have him as a newbie to showing, most would be happy to have done so well and be proud to see him produce quality progeny.  And now that she might not receive money that SHE has decided she should have when he's used, OP is considering having him neutered???  Golly, I'm glad that I'm not the breeder! :(

yea ok in that respect i agree but at the end of the day yes breeding is part of makes a good breed standard for a show dog but again , healthy diet, home enviroment great care etc goes into the dog to make him a succes . she didnt feed him or supplement his diet and walk him , run him show him?  if i had fed him rubbish diet not excercise him vaccinate etc she would not want to stud him

i will keep you all posted on how the legal case goes on but it may help people to reword their contract in future and when my solicitor gives me back the original contract i will write down what it says to see if there is any difference of opinion

>she didnt feed him or supplement his diet and walk him , run him show him?

No, but his genes would have been the same, however he was raised.

I think you may be in danger of being a little begrudging of her due to your differences :) 
Exercise and diet are important but dogs can do jolly well with pretty much the basics.  However, you cannot make a silk purse out of a pigs ear and the greater part of what you have before you will have come from the breeding.

> when my solicitor gives me back the original contract i will write down what it says to see if there is any difference of opinion

That will be very interesting, thank you :)

miss gillespie - I don't think you can take ALL the credit for your dog's success! The breeder must be allowed her fair share of the credit

Very valid comment.

>In my opinion, you chose to sign the contract when you purchased the puppy, if you weren't sure what it meant, then was the time to ask

Exactly.  And TBH all the comments seem to be aimed at the financial aspect - then threats to castrate.  This sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

No way would I sign over any dog that I loved "as a pet" to anybody, whatever the circumstances.  It is getting too spiteful now.  I would just put it down to experience personally.

Can I ask if you have tried to sort this out with the breeder before going to a Solicitor?  She just may not be very experienced about writing contracts and be happy with what you are prepared to offer!

Personally I would think that stud rights means free use of stud, but you and the dogs breeder have to discuss that as it is open to interpretation.

I think this is just it -interpretation. And why all details always need to be in writing. To me, "stud rights" would mean being ALLOWED to use the dog -but not for free. It only mentions the right, nothing else.

The breeder is generally given some credit in these things :-)

Hence the breeder getting a certificate from the KC when they have bred a dog that's become a Champion -even if the dog does not belong to them.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Can I ask if you have tried to sort this out with the breeder before going to a Solicitor?  She just may not be very experienced about writing contracts and be happy with what you are prepared to offer!

Exactly Ells-Bells.

How much have you actually discussed the issue with the breeder.  Do you actually know what she was expecting re the contract? 

I would also try to consider the bigger picture, what goes around comes around etc  and, as Stooge said, remember that the dog show game is a small world and reputation goes a long way.  Don't go rushing headlong into legal fights if it can be avoided by a bit a diplomacy.

Miss gillespie,

On reading your thread I think you are getting yourself into a big flap over nothing.

You signed a contract to say that your dogs breeder could use your dog at stud, in the dog world I live in that means that she can use him for free end of! On her bitch/bitches, no way will she use him on all 10 of her bitches that would be utterly ridiculous and a silly thought for you to even have, what is the point of that? She is obviously building something which is at the root of all good breeders and the bloodline of your dog is part of that plan.

The contract does not say that she has rights to  use your dog at stud outside herself, so how are you losing out on any money if this is at the root of your upset?

Other people may well wish to source your dog also.

If you neutered or transfered your dog if I were that breeder I would sue you until you couldn't sit down!!

I suggest that you stop over dramatising this uphold your end of the bargain and allow her to use your dog if and when needed, that is what good breeders and good stud dog owners do, we help each other to produce the best puppies we can, we don't quibble and start being awkward when the time comes.

Also just wish to point out you're stressing over having to take time off work of course you don't and stressing that you will have to be at the breeders beck and call to go whenever she wants, it is not like that at all, you make the breeder sound like some sort of hitler.

When her bitch is in season, she will let you know the month she is likely to be due, she will then once the season starts let you know she will need to use him within the next couple of weeks depending on her bitches peak time, if you are working she will arrange to come to you to use him when you are home from work, or you may wish to travel to her, that is your call or you may wish to do as I do with the stud dog I used let the stud come and stay, but that is up to you, she will in no way dictate and demand that you go to her at the drop of a hat, it does not work like that, the ball is in your court how you wish this to be done.

Usually the bitch owner will come to you when it is appropriate, the bitch can be mated morning, noon or night makes no difference you need not be inconvenienced at all.

Before anything even starts you are beginning with negatives and putting brick walls up, this is such a simple thing to do for a breeder you have signed a contract with to do so, just do it with a smile, I really don't get why your hackles are up so badly?

well said 100% agree Carrington

It depends on the wording of the contract but if the contract makes specific mention to the stud rights then you will have a problem.

It is common practice in many commercial contracts involving livestock with a possible stud value that the seller sells the animal for x amount but offers the client the opportunety to purchase the animal for x amount plus y amount .Y amount being an extra fee which includes any stud rights should the animal make it in its chosen field and go to stud.
If the purchaser does not want to pay the extra y amount at the time of purchase then that is their right.But should the purchase wish to put the animal to stud at a later date then all stud fees earned etc would be payable to the seller  
This is a standard commercial contract of sale

I am not experienced in this at all so i would have first off asked what that meant - that ship has long since sailed and hindsight is great but useless here.

I would take it to mean that I have to make my dog available for stud duties to bitches of my breeders choice - HOWEVER I would not assume this would be free for bitches not owned by her.

Stud fee's in my eyes go towards the cost of:
Health Testing
Showing
Feeding
The time and inconvenience to the stud owner
Money spent on keeping the dog
Initial purchase price

Obviously a stud fee covers a tiny tiny fraction of this but surely the person paying for the dog's upkeep, health testing, showing etc. should be getting the money. 

If it is about her just using the stud dog on one or two of her own bitches over the space of a couple of years I wouldn't be expecting a fee (a pick of the litter maybe on breeding terms again possibly - although not since your relationship has broken down)- you have a lovely dog who has done very well and I would like to think your relationship with your dogs breeder was of importance to you. 

Other bitches for stud duties I would be expecting to take a fee . If you only ever intend on using your dog for your breeder and nobody else then I would ask her to pay health testing but have a contract that if you used him for another bitch you would refund her that money.

The only person that I know who has bitches on breeding terms - the dog is given to a friend for free, kept in her name, breeder pays all health tests, show entries, whelping costs (done at her house) and the other person is offered a pup free of charge on breeding terms again for inconvenience.

Would love to know what contact the poor breeder had with this owner before the solicitors were brought into this. 

Why not look at the situation a bit more positively? You've ended up with a decent dog that you can enjoy taking to shows and do a bit of winning to boot.  Breeders haven't got crystal balls and if they sell a dog on breeding or stud terms there's a lot that can go wrong before any of this comes to fruition. If you stay amicable with the breeder and stick to the contract your dog may have some progeny out in the ring, maybe winning as well, you and the breeder can enjoy the kudos that brings, you get lots of experience handling a stud dog and therefore other people may want to use your dog. 

Somewhere down the line you may have one of your dogs offspring in your sole ownership to do what you want with, this won't be possible if you castrate your dog and if this current situation gets out of hand -legal action isnt cheap - at the end of the day no-one benefits do they?

Just a point - I am not sure whereabouts Miss Gillespie lives, but the mention of titles, islands and Green Stars may mean she doesn't live within the bounds of UK law, or possibly may be subject to Scottish law which is different from English.

Green Stars indicates Ireland I think.

Excellent posts Carrington and WolfieStruppi.