i wonder if someone could help me ? 2 and a half years ago i obtained a show dog and he has been successful although i do little shows in the year. the breeder and myself signed paper that she had stud dog rights that was fine by me took it that it meant she could use my dog to stud . as i own this dog do i have right to ask for stud fee also can i limit when the dog is studded as she has quite a number of bitches or can anyone clarify this for me more as this person seems to thinks she has an absolute right over me and my dog ?

Hi miss gillespie, I would think that the paper you signed was a contract between you and the breeder. The first step would be took look at what you have signed for the terms and conditions.
If you were not happy with the terms of the contract you should have not agreed to them and signed. As to if you can get out of the contract I think you may need some legal advice, you may be able to get free advice via you home insurance policy if it is included in your cover.

What exactly did the signed paper say? Who's name is the dog registered in?

all dog documents in my name . and the document says i agree to make dog available for stud duties?

this person may profit from my dog if this means that she gets it for free but that is not what i understood it to be ? at the end of the day i am solely alone responsible for my dogs success that doesnt give her the right to use him at her on free will or does it ?

I would say if the contract you signed doesn't specifically say the breeder gets a 'free mating' or is allowed to claim full or partial stud fees then legally you don't have to permit this.
If the contract isnt clear then thats the breeders fault for wording it as such
and I  believe the KC wouldnt endorse a wooly contract

What did you think it meant ? Did the breeder go through the contract with you ? Were you sold the dog at a lower price because of the terms of the contract ? Is there a limit to the number of times the dog can be used at stud or a time scale for how long a period eg. 2yr, 3yrs etc.
With dogs or bitches that have good show potentional it is not uncommon for them to be sold on breeding terms, but the breeder should have explained the terms when you purchased the puppy.

It would depend on how the contract was worded and did you pay full price for him as to whether you can expect to share the fees.

Where do the matings take place? Do the bitches come to you or does the stud go and stay at the breeders for a while, if it is the former I would expect payment for the inconvenience and the upset caused by these vIsiting bitches.

Are you allowed to offer him at stud to bitches not owned by his breeder.

Whilst at a show with my male dachsie who was NFC getting used to the hubub I was approached by the owner of my dogs full brother/different litter(they could have been twins as they were the same colour and pattern) and asked would I  like to co own him so he could live with me but be available at stud to selected bitches, this really shocked me as I wasn't known to this woman and being my first show I wasn't known by anyone else there either, I politely declined her offer, I did contact the breeder of the 2 dogs with my concerns but she already knew and said it was common for studs to be "fostered out" so they keep less males at the breeders and just keep females and any males who were being shown.

I would contact the breeder of your male and verify where you stand re fees.

Sorry got interupted during my post, there were no replies when I started.

Miss G this should have all been agreed before you took the puppy and if you weren't happy then you could have walked away.  Has it come up now because the breeder has asked to use him?  From her point of view she thinks she has an agreement with you and has presumably been working towards that.  If she has been above board all the way along it would be unfair of you to refuse her at this late stage...  the time for negotiating was 2.5 years ago.

Has he had all the necessary health test?

It's a bit late complaining about it now.  Did you pay the full normal fee for a pup or did she charge you a bit less so that she could have stud rights?  Who is paying for any health tests etc?

the document says i agree to make dog available for stud duties

If this is only what the document says, I would take it that you pay for relevant health tests to be done and agree to him being used at stud for her, anyone she puts your way or anyone really that wants to use him, as she hasn't stipulated that he can only be used by her dogs - on the understanding that bitches are health tested (if required in your breed) and are of good type and of course temperament. 

If you were given a good deal from the breeder in having this dog, you could offer a reduction in price for her use of your boy for the first x number of matings perhaps.  I would take it though, that you would benefit financially for his stud use and it be nothing to do with the breeder. 

Also, if she has not asked to use him yet I would think she possibly won't now as most breeders like their studs to be proven at a relatively young age.

I'm assuming he has no endorsements on him. 

This again is another case of signing a contract without fully understanding what it means, not criticising anyone but it's a lesson for us all - read everything carefully and get the documents ammended so it is very clear what the contract entails.

I have recently bought a puppy on these conditions but the contract stated that the breeder could use him free of charge and any one else the fee would be split between us 50-50.  He will only be used if he passes his health tests and his breeder feels he is of the correct type.

I don't see this as my breeder having an absolute right over my dog, he is the one who has spent many many years perfecting the breed, he is the one who has paid for all his dogs to be health tested, to be shown, to import new blood.  If he hadn't dedicated so much time and expense I would not have the quality dog that I have now.  Why would I deprive him the result of all his hard work?

Is it only now your dog is successful that you don't want to stick to your contract?

I've just bought a puppy with the agreement that she has the right if he's to be used at stud (and she's obligated to help me achieve this if it's possible) that she (and only she) has the right to use him free of charge.  This is because a previous owner wanted her to pay full price and made it very difficult.  I'm happy as she's a reputable person and it's only for her bitches.  I have no restrictions on him - he's genetically clear of what we can test for, leaving me with a physical general and gonioscopy eye tests and hip scoring.  In fact I think I'm going to add it to my own puppy contract ;-)

I think you need to talk to the breeder, to clear a few points
1, Is the dog just to serve her bitches or
2, If the dogs goes out to stud, where does the stud fee go, what percentage do you get?( you should have something if you pay for everything)

You have done well in the show ring, but have you  had all the cost for showing him?
Who paid for the health checks ?
You have spent the time keeping him in top condition
You have paid for quality food etc
All this goes into keeping a stud dog
You really should have ironed out all the points before you signed.

I had a bitch on breeding terms, just for one litter, i didn't pay for her. i paid for her up keep and show entries, health checks 50/50 and all cost from the litter after payment for my electric, extra food for her or anything to do with her being here with me was 50/50 same as any profit.
All this was agreed before my girl was even born.

thanks guys for your input i may have to seek legal advice. i have paid all bills regarding the dog all show prices etc and made him the success . if i hadnt made him a success would she still want him  as stud ? i do think its unfair that a stud fee wouldnt be paid after the money etc put into this dogs success. but she seems to think because she has rights to stud that it should be free this is unfair i think i dont mind doing it at a reduce price but at the end of the day why should i lose out also?

You haven't said, and several have asked.

Did you pay full price for this dog?

It is possible that she always wanted the chance to use this breeding in her future plans and that is why she chose to include this in the contract. The fact that you have gone on to be successful with him is an added bonus which is also in part testament to her breeding aswell as your hard work.
It would be best if you could sit down and discuss the terms first and try and work out an acceptable compromise before going down any antagonistic route.

this is what i thought although it just said stud rights that is it there is no clarity in where when how much etc .. but everyone that i know of still has to pay stud duties or pick of litter . but at the  end of the day i have put quite a money into this dogbut first and foremost he is a pet and thats where my priorites lay. she may have bred the dog and well but at the end of the day im  the owner and i have made him the success not her.

yes i did the dog was paid in full

I have recently bought a puppy on these conditions but the contract stated that the breeder could use him free of charge and any one else the fee would be split between us 50-50.  He will only be used if he passes his health tests and his breeder feels he is of the correct type.

Blimey, I hope you got the puppy for free as she will be raking it in!!

miss gillespie - I don't think you can take ALL the credit for your dog's success! The breeder must be allowed her fair share of the credit

I am confused about what exactly you thought "stud rights" actually meant? I would have no doubts in my mind that it meant that the breeder retained all rights pertaining to him being used at stud. In my opinion, you chose to sign the contract when you purchased the puppy, if you weren't sure what it meant, then was the time to ask.

yes no one is disputing her share of the credit , but had i left him at home no shows etc and fed him cheap food and not taking much care of him would she still want to stud him?  at the end of the day she has 10 bitches she can stud him to at the moment does this give her the right to demand my dog to use with all these bitches etc ? at the end of the day she doesnt expect she can do this fpor nothing ? i have a bitch of a different breed when she was studded i paid the price to use the correct male and the second time the stud owner took a pup from litter .. there has to be give and take

Is it just the financial aspect you are concerned about i.e you don't think she should be able to use him for free or is it you don't want him to be used at stud at all?

i dont mind taking a lower price for the stud of this dog .. the person involved seems to think she can do it foe nothing and to as many of her bitches and whenever suits ..as he is a beautiful healthy dog etc i would like to know also if he would be studded to the right female and that his offspring will be as healthy beautiful successful as he was .. and a great family pet .. i just dont see how she can use him for nothing after all if she paid for his food vet bills shows etc then of course she would have absolute right to his stud for nothing . but i have paid  for everything so why should she take the benefit

Im affraid the number of bitches she has does not matter as you have singned the stud rights to her, she can use him on 100 bitches if she wanted for no fee, you cant compare this with you having to pay a stud fee for another bitch as this is completly different. You really should have checked all these details before you signed the contract, i know this type of contract is quite common in the show world but its down to both parties to thrash out the details and small print before drawing up the agreement, out of intrest did you get the dog at a reduced price for her keeping the stud rights as this is often the arangement.

i paid full price for him .  its getting to the point that we are considering neutering him because of the demands she is placing . a bitchhas to be studded at a particular time and this means i lose hours of work etc ,

This sounds as if you are already at odds with your breeder and you are both digging your feet in, you that you want some financial recompense and her that she retained rights and will use as she sees fit. A no win situation :-( and unfortunately one that happens with these things all too often.

if i neuter him or sign him over into someone else name where would i stand after all the agreement is with me and not with someone else

> but had i left him at home no shows etc and fed him cheap food and not taking much care of him would she still want to stud him?

Possibly, as it could well be the bloodlines she is most interested in AND she may well know his quality even without too much show success

> at the end of the day she has 10 bitches she can stud him to at the moment does this give her the right to demand my dog to use with all these bitches etc ?

It might give her the right - but would she do that?  If so, then she isn't the sort of breeder you should have got involved with in the first place

May I ask why you didn't get all these questions answered when you agreed to take your puppy?  At this point the only person who can tell you what she intended is the breeder so I'd advise you to have a sit down conversation with her

it doesnt say free mating.  it just says stud rights which is a loose term

Funny that you felt the breeeder was good enough to buy from and agree to her having stud rights but now you have changed your mind?  I imported a stud dog once, I got free matings with my girls not that I had many and any other interested parties the monies went back to his breeder.  I did all the health tests, fed him, paid vets fees etc.  I was just proud to have the dog involved and I have ancestors now that I'm really pleased with by him.  That was more than enough payment to me for him.

I think maybe you should meet with the breeder and discuss what her plans are longterm and maybe you can arrange a time period for the stud right after which she signs them over to you, i have heard of arangements like yours which may run untill the dog is say 4/5 years old. I would just start by talking to her.

Obviously both of you have taken entirely different meanings from an admittedly woolly worded contract - if it were me I would be trying to iron out a compromise, unless you have the apetite for a possible legal wrangle.  Perhaps agree that she can get only so many free matings, say 5 over dogs lifetime but that all your out of pocket costs must be covered.

And if you do manage to compromise, get it all down in unambigous written terms. 

i havent changed my mind if you read you will see that i have no problem using my dogs to stud but at the end of the day had she has to understand that she is not solely responsible for his success and she cannot expect me to drop everything just so she can use him when suits her . why should she profit when the dog belongs to me there was no reduced price everything was also paid by me  the paper work is also in my name . would she still want him if he was a pet or is it because of his success she wants him?

it doesnt say free mating.  it just says stud rights which is a loose term

I therefore think it acceptable if she has the first mating for free, especially to see if he's fertile and the subsequent ones at an agreed price.  I don't know your breed but how about a handing fee - for your time etc then a set amount per live puppy.

Also, if you work, then she should work around you as to when to bring her bitch - that's the way it works...

this is probably the best outcome for this and that isnt a problem and its a route i dont mind going down her wording in her contract is way off and  at the end of the day she has no absolute right over him this is what she thinks she has .. it has gotten to the stage that i was thinking of signing him over to a friend or neutering him  because of the way she thinks she can demand him at all times

Also it may simply mean that the breeder required you to simply keep the dog entire, have any health tests required.

You would then be liable for any expenses and entitled to your stud fees.

Is his registration document endorsed so he cannot be used for breeding until it is removed anyway.

Has the breeder actually asked for free matings or told you they expect to have stud fees when he is used.  I certainly would think that unfair.

A dog I bred was used at stud, I had him and the bitches here for mating (the owner had other entire males), and I did take £50 from the stud fee for my time and trouble, and the owner got the rest (our stud fees are the price of a puppy).

I am very glad he was used as I am hoping my next puppy will be by one of his sons.  So good breeders when asking for dogs to be available are most likely not looking at anything beyond being able to include them in later breeding plans, not with hopes of making money from someone else's dog.

I bred My youngest champion bitches sire, and I offered the owner two options when I asked to use him, either that I would pay for his health testing (hips, eyes and overseas DNA test), and have a Free service, and risk the results being unsatisfactory, or the dog not performing, or that I paid a normal stud fee on production of a litter.  She chose the latter so taking the risks that after spending around £500 her dog didn't make a stud.  so her stud fee covered her costs with a few pounds left over.  Luckily for her he has been used twice since (once again by myself on another bitch).

> say 5 over dogs lifetime

In my breed many good dogs would never even have that many mating opportunities.  One free mating would seem reasonable to me.  If the contract says available at stud then I would expect to charge stud fees, but might offer one free out of the goodness of my heart, but there is no reason you should.

thank you so much this is a great option ... im new to the show world and i feel maybe she may be taking advantage of that but to me fair is fair and your comments are fair to me thanks

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><br />In my breed many good dogs would never even have that many mating opportunities

I know, I was just using the figure as an example :-)  I would possible offer 1 mating and hope that would be acceptable.

> at the end of the day she has 10 bitches she can stud him to at the moment

It is very unlikely that a breeder unless they have a huge number of unrelated dogs will be able to sue a dog they bred to many of her existing  bitches it is likely they will need to wait a generation or two before being able to bring him into their plans so they aren't too closely related.

You may well have got yourself completely upset for nothing more than her wanting him to remain entire or perhaps expecting one free stud use (I'd consider anything else greedy unless she had the dog at her home to be used where a handling fee would e appropriate out of the stud fee)..

no worries . she has had use free of my dog once but the bitch she used lost the pups again 2 weeks before giving birth .. this bitch seems to have some sort of hormaonal dificulty according to her vet . i didnt mind using him free for the first time . that to me doesnt give her the right o use him free all the time . and but because the pups didnt survive  i felt that she had enough to contend with so the subject of stud fees never came up when she used him that time at the very least if she needed him again which she does i expect to be compensated as such

this person has 10 unrelated dogs she can use. as that generation was brought in from various cuntries and specially selected that once they showed and had their titles that they could then be mated .i agree greed on her part has alot to do with it and that all she wants is his sperm thats fair enough but to me u want something u have to pay for it the same way i did when i paid for the dog

If you are happy for one free use the I would say the breeder still shouldn't pay for the next mating as there were no live pups. Any reputable stud dog owner I know will offer a free repeat mating if there are no pups :-)

> i have paid all bills regarding the dog all show prices etc and made him the success . if i hadnt made him a success would she still want him&nbsp; as stud ?

I think that is the general expectation when a dog is sold on a stud contract :)
I do think you have a moral obligation to stick by any agreement however if the contract really does just say you are to make the dog available and absolutely no conditions attached to that then I would say you have no meaningful contract and you could ignore it legally if not ethically.
Morally I would say you should go back to the breeder and agree reasonable terms.

> It would be best if you could sit down and discuss the terms first and try and work out an acceptable compromise before going down any antagonistic route.

Very much so, not only for ethical reasons, you did after all buy on stud terms, but also because reputation is important when looking to network with other breeders as we all must.

Certainly if you allowed a free mating and the bitch didn't have a live litter then morally they should get a free return service, but any other matings a normal stud fee should apply that you keep.

I would hope that the dogs breeder only ever expected this, and there is possibly a misunderstanding going on.

> i have a bitch of a different breed when she was studded i paid the price

Did you breed that dog and sell with a stud agreement?

no this dog was bought from a breeder and the agreement only says stud rights but that is a very loose term

yea i think that is a very acceptable option hun ty