I've just got back from having my litter vet checked at 7.5 weeks . I've been told that 1 has a grade 2 heart murmur and another is grade 2-3 this is just the vet listening to their hearts.
The bitch is due to go to her home on Sunday but now I'm worrying what to say to the new owners , Last time I had a litter there was one with a murmur but it disappeared in a couple of weeks. This vet wasn't very helpful though (I usually have my preferred vet but she is on the farms this week), and told me they may or may not go in time !
Please can I ask your opinions on murmurs of this grade and what you'd say to the new owners ,I don't want to shock them as if it were me years ago in their position I would probably go into shock after waiting so many weeks for the perfect pup.
I'm thinking possibly keeping them back and getting them checked again in 2 weeks . I have another little girl who sounded fine who I could offer in place , would this be acceptable do you think ?

Do you heart test in your beed ? if so were both parents clear or either eqivocal ?

No not at the moment .

I would keep them back to see if the murmur went, I don't know what breed you have but in my breed you often get flow murmurs which some vets don't seem to realise are different from a serious heart murmur and will often go away when the puppy is a bit more mature. Depending on if your other girl is the one you wanted to keep, and if you were going to show her, I wouldn't let her go. Of course you have to be upfront with the owners and they have to make an informed decision, particularly if the murmurs don't go.

In my breed we have 'puppy murmurs' which clear up and are quite often diagnosed by newer more eager vets.  Vets with experience of the breed (and it's not an uncommon one) don't even blink.

I would probably go back to your preferred vet and get a 2nd opinion.

I agree with LucyDogs about flow murmers and over cautious vets.

My own vet had a breeder with heart murmers in a couple of Border Terriers.  He wasn't worried, the breeder was.  No heart murmers found at all by 12 weeks.

I believe that she told the new owners when they picked up the pups, and offered to refund part of the sale price if the problem didn't clear.  But, as I mentioned, all cleared no problems.

If the puppies have been diagnosed with this problem it will affect the puppy health insurance.

It would be classed as a pre existing condition so I think new owners should be made aware as it would need to be declared when taking out the insurance.

Definitely get a second opinion. I had this happen to me although, unfortunately it was when pup had gone to her new home. My own vet (whom I trust implicitly) gave her and her littermates a thorough health check and all passed. This particular pup was then checked over by the new owners vet a couple of days later and he said it had a grade 2 heart murmur and advised she consider returning the puppy to the breeder. I couldn't get pup back quick enough. I gave them full refund - of course - then took her back to my vets for another opinion, they said no murmur. Just to be on the safe side, I waited another week or so, got yet another check up and again no murmur. Pup went off to her forever home (different owner altogether) a week later, they also had their vet check her and again all clear.... pup is 4 now (with a clear heart !)
However, even if your pup does have a murmur it is likely to be an innocent flow murmur, which will clear within a few weeks. I would advise you keep her until then though.

Thanks everyone great advise , I'll speak with the buyer later on and explain we should wait a while and I'll have her re checked by a different vet. I'm confident it will go , this is a young vet and think she is airing on the side of caution.
I'll be activating the insurance and will make them aware of what the puppy check found.

I'll be activating the insurance and will make them aware of what the puppy check found.

I think I would wait till you have the second opinion on the murmur, before activating and informing the insurance company.

If you alert them now, and the flow is not evident  , you   risk the new owners not being able to get insurance regarding anything to do with he heart.

Hi..Am I correct in thinking these are Frenchies?

Think You should follow the advice given by jackbox and err on the side of caution before informing the insurance firm about possible heart murmurs as they only see things in black and white and if indeed these are innocent flow murmurs which the pups grow out of then I'm afraid the insurance firm will not understand this as they will only acknowledge that heart murmurs were disclosed and will count this as a pre-existing thus not cover any heart condition in the future.

Try not to panic too much at the moment and do as others have suggested and seek a second opinion

> err on the side of caution before informing the insurance firm about possible heart murmurs

It is a little late for that as it has already been noted by a vet.  The only option now is to wait to see if the condition resolved, as many do but not all, before taking out the insurance where it can be declared that no condition exists.

I'm going to book them another appointment with a different vet next week , so hopefully will get the all clear.

Also I'm not allowed to state my breed , I would not say as it is against terms and conditions and could be seen as advertising!
:)

Oh ok, Its just that we do Heart test in Frenchies so I was confused??

> Its just that we do Heart test in Frenchies

It does not seem to be on the KC list of requirements or even recommendations.

Hi,
It is required by the breed club and part of the Health scheme, All members should be testing before breeding as Hearts can be a big problem in the breed
The only KC test is for PRA,However This seems to be less of a problem that hearts as all dogs tested so far have been clear or carriers

> It is required by the breed club and part of the Health scheme

Is the Health Scheme a requirement?   I had a look at the club web site when I first heard about it but I don't really undestand how it works to be honest.
They do not appear to have made heart testing a requirement for their membership code and the scheme just appears to be a facility for obtaining club rates of testing facilities if you wish.

Health testing sessions are carried out at the club shows,You do not need to be a member to partcipate

> It is required by the breed club

It looks like there are several breed clubs. I can't find any ethics on display on any of the websites I looked at.  Of course that might just mean that their websites aren't particularly up to date. But I did find this on the Essex club's website.

I liked the way this club seems not to require sponsorship and seconding which makes membership look more accessible to more people. That's got to be more helpful education-wise than remaining completely exclusive, IMHO.

It is required by the breed club as part of the Health scheme...Just seen my error.

There are only two recognised breed clubs, The parent club French bulldog club of England and the Midland and Northern French bulldog club.
There may in the furture be more the way the breed has erupted

>I liked the way this club seems not to require sponsorship and seconding which makes membership look more accessible to more people. That's got to be more helpful education-wise than remaining completely exclusive, IMHO.

The other side of that coin is that it enables less-than-desirable breeders to join and use the club membership as a promotional tool, to make themselves appear reputable.

Currently, you don't have to heart test cavaliers to be a KC assured breeder - only eye test, as there isn't (yet) a KC/BVA scheme for heart testing! Meanwhile, Mitral Valve Disease is the biggest threat to cavalier health - always has been.

The heart testing is a requirement for the Silver level along with DNA testing for HC and patella test (Putman scoring).  We are trying to encourage everyone to get there Frenchies health tested under this scheme.

> The other side of that coin is that it enables less-than-desirable breeders to join and use the club membership as a promotional tool, to make themselves appear reputable.

True, so you have to go for the least worst option. I think putting too many obstacles in the way can do more harm than good. Educating people seems like a good start to me, and breed clubs are usually best placed to do it.

Situations like this put me in mind of John Major's famous quote, but I expect I'll get into trouble if I repeat it here!

>Situations like this put me in mind of John Major's famous quote

"When your back's against the wall, turn round and fight"?

Generally the proposer and seconder requirement is no issue as most people will have the breeder of their dog propose them, often the stud dog owner will second, or in my clubs case as long as I have proposed a new puppy owner they second it at committee where all new memberships are agreed.

The main reason for it is to stop people shipping in new members when their is something contentious to decide at an AGM/SGM where people will often have friends and relatives join merely to have voting rights, and as said before it enables known undesirables from being given membership.

> "When your back's against the wall, turn round and fight"?

I think it was a bit ruder than that. When asked why he didn't just get rid of troublesome people, he said:

"It's better to have the b*stards inside the tent p*ssing out than outside the tent p*ssing in!"

> It is required by the breed club as part of the Health scheme...Just seen my error.
>

But it does not appear to be part of their code.  I can't see anywhere on the website that indicates it is a requirement for members to avail themselves of this facility.  It is hard to see quite what it is all about to be honest.

> We are trying to encourage everyone to get there Frenchies health tested under this scheme.

Why not just make it a membership requirement?

>Why not just make it a membership requirement?

Wouldn't that deter pet owners, or owners of rescue dogs, from joining the breed club?

> Wouldn't that deter pet owners, or owners of rescue dogs, from joining the breed club?

I meant as part of the breeding code.

Are there any updates on these 2 puppies?

Hi yes been and seen my usual vet today , one pups has gone completely , the other is barely there and she predicts that it will be gone in a week or two. She says they are innocent flow murmurs ( relief! ) :)

Phew :)

I am very pleased for you but very angry at the first vet, what right do they have to give you a week of worry because they do not know what they are talking about. It really is not good enough to take your money on false pretences they are supposed to be trained and should know when to explain what they have found and what it could be without trying to scare you, what if it was a bought in pup you would have been even more upset.

This would be a real problem if it had been new owners vet, as I think this has happened to breeders on the board before.

Great news!! (and tempted to send a kick on the ankle to the idiot first vet!)

> She says they are innocent flow murmurs ( relief! ) :-)

That's really good news, very pleased for you.

Fantastic news and as I expected.  This type of thing really irritates me, undermine's potential buyer's confidence in breeders, makes us spend more money than we need to - when just a little more education and less jumping the gun on the part of newer/younger vets might not go amiss :(

That's my restrained version above.  The version in my head is full of nasty words LOL

I ama  little curious as to what we think the vet should have done given that not all murmers are innocuous.
Personally I think he should have suggested a follow up himself to see if things were progressing rather than leave it to the OP but, given thats hearts may be an issue in the breed, I do not think it would have been correct to say it will definately resolve on you go and send them to their new homes.

The vet was potentially correct in pointing out that the murmers were there.  What really upsets me is when a vet states outright - this 8 week old puppy has a grade 2 murmer and will likely be sick the rest of its life how terrible of that breeder to sell you this pup (or how terrible a breeder you are to consider selling these pups), rather than being aware that there are such things as puppy murmurs and saying - I'm hearing a murmur - I'm not too concerned at this point as it's likely a puppy murmur, but would advise you to come back in a couple of weeks to double check.

The number of people in my breed who've had the first rather than the second (and hearts actually aren't an issue in my breed, but due to the shape of their chests they do sound different to many other breeds) and put the fear of god into some poor puppy buyer who's rushed out within a day or to and spent several hundred pounds on a heart specialist who then says there's nothing or it will resolve.  Those are the vets that really irritate me.  And from the initial post the breeder was told that the pups had murmurs - not that they should re-check, just point blank murmurs (from the way the post was worded).  This is irresponsible in my opinion.

> just point blank murmurs (from the way the post was worded).  This is irresponsible in my opinion.

Well, not quite.  He did say they may or may not go.

Sorry, from my initial reading of the post a few days ago I took it that the 'may or may not go' was from the previous vet a previous time.  My mistake.

Easy done :)

Until I started reading about it on CD some years ago - I didn't realise that murmurs are to be expected in some young puppies, and that they go away in time OR that some breeds are prone to heart problems etc. 

From what posters have said in the past, breeding isn't a topic learned by all vets and some young vets may well not have much experience with it, or appreciate the differences associated with breeds.  I agree its frustrating for the OP and could be very alarming for new owners BUT it should be mentioned by the vet and isn't something they can ignore.  I agree that he should have advised a follow up (but of course he may not have realised that some murmurs resolve with time).  However, I'd like to think its an opportunity for this young vet to learn and hope that his supervising partner/manager will take the time to talk it through. 

> but of course he may not have realised that some murmurs resolve with time

He did say it may resolve. 

This is why in Boxers we do have a puppy handout sheet regarding murmurs.

http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/handout.htm

Perhaps it may be sensible to adapt for other breeds so that new owners/breeders aren't frightened
if their vet finds a 'innocent' puppy flow murmur.

>if a puppy "flow" murmur is loud and persists

See that is the thing, it takes a little time to establlish if things are going to persist.  I would not blame any vet not wishing to commit, or purchaser for that matter, until things are on a clearer footing.
95% good still leaves 5% bad, quite a gamble on your pet.

Fantastic news :-)