I need help complaining about a breeder please!! It's NOT a BC nor a dog I own but an Alaskan Malamute for a friend. The bare bones are she bought a pup because she saw an ad on the internet, and the breeder never gave her name and was reluctant about giving them her address.. when they got there they were shown a puppy, not with the litter and no parents although they could hear adult dogs in the house (This is where the alarm bells start and I have told her she was bad for doing it this way but that horse has bolted). The puppy is supposedly KC registered but the paperwork has only just been sent off so the only thing she was given was a four gen breeder created pedigree and a (crap) info sheet. I have looked up the parents on the KC health test finder and the dam and sire's sire and dam etc are on there with corresponding hip scores but I cannot find the sire, although I suspect we are missing an affix for his name, because if he's not registered they can't be KC registered?. The pup is sold as being 8 weeks old but weighs only 1.3kg (thats NOT a typo.. 1.3 kg "8 week old" malamute pup..) and is skin and bones, and tiny. My best guess is he is around 4/5 weeks as he is eating biscuits but is so tiny. He also has diarrhea and is supposed to be wormed but we're presuming he hasn't been. i have told her I will see what can be done about complaing to the KC (presuming the affix is legit) and I think potentially under trade descriptions (i think thats the right one) for being missold? I have to admit I am worried he's a puppy farmed puppy even with an affix. He does look like a malamute (albeit a tiny skinny one) and I have pictures of him next to a 12" ruler if anyone wants to see how small we are talking.

Who do you want to complain to? Your friend shouldn't have touched this pup, but you know that and they know that now :-) You could maybe complain to the RSPCA/SSPCA but as your friend didn't see any of the adults it's hard to say if they are being mistreated. Trading standards maybe if they turn out not to be KC registered and were advertised as such, it's a tough one though because they bought a malamute and you've said it looks like one.

Basically though I think they simply learn from their mistake, and hopefully others reading this learn from it too.

I wish them the very best of luck with their new pup, I suspect they may need it. My 10 week old kittens weigh the same as it!!!

Well I figure if its KC registered, then the size of it + the state of it (and the suspect age) is a good place to start!! If its not KC registered then yes trading standards and I suspect its worth a mention to the RSPCA if only because its tiny, skinny and clearly not the age is supposed to be...

I know they shouldn't have bought it but if complaints can go to governing bodies then they should imo!

Take it to a vet , for a check and ask if he /she is willing to go on paper reporting its weight etc . Don't worm it now , that's the least of the problems with diarrhoea as its losing fluids and electrolytes.Personally I wouldn't vaccinate either until a lot of TLC has taken place.Keep a diary , photos and records  just in case it is taken further.Report the house to the local council , some councils require breeding licences  for 2 breeding bitches...(different councils different rules)

You say the pup has an affix? Have you tried googling the affix to see if it does belong to a malamute breeder? Anyone can make up a pedigree name. If the pup is not registered and from the information you give it seems highley unlikely. And if this is the case the KC won't want to know.

The best thing your friends can do would be to try to take the pup back and ask for a full refund but I guess this won't happen. Even if they do try I am betting the "breeders" won't part with the money. I would say that keeping this pup even if it survives will lead to a lot of heartache. I have looked at some of my puppy weight records and my breed is a LOT smaller than a Malamute and I would expect my pups to be 1.3 kg at about 2-3 weeks old so goodness knows what they have bought but I doubt it is a pure bred malamute.

googling the affix brings up a single young adult female mal for sale on a puppyfarmy sort of site which doesn't bode well! I've also found what I think is probably the litter advert and they are advertised as kc registered which fits with what my friend says she was told.
She won't take him back to the breeder as she's no longer on the mainland and she's said a bit of the reason she got him was to "rescue" him. . I can see why she did it, even with my sensible dog person head on I am sure I couldn't walk away from a litter like that, even though I know its for the best so I can't really blame her - just educate her for next time
His weight really worries me - he is really lively and bright and apparently eating well apart from the squits but it is such a tiny amount to weigh :( I have to say he does resemble a malamute (albeit a tiny, scrawny, skinny one) but who knows

Think your friend needs to put this down to experience and forget complaining, the pup is paramount and it needs vet attention. Chances are it will pull round and grow into a happy adult but it needs sorting now. If the vet tells her it is a different breed or a cross then the weight may not be such a problem.

Would doubt that anything she has been told will be the truth, in other words, the pup is not the age it is said to be, is not registered by the KC, is not wormed, and is probably not a Mal. But it is a pup that needs help and if she is prepared to stand by her purchase then I am sure she will enjoy her pup.

I agree with Nova's take on the situation. There is no point complaining to anyone about this pup as your friends made the decision to 'rescue' buy him in the face of the warning signs. Until people stop supporting irresponsible breeders and puppy farmers by buying from them, the trade will go on. In the meantime, all the pups that are produced do actually need loving homes, so this pup is lucky, and I hope they all bring one another many years of companionship and fun.

People do need to complain when they buy a sick puppy. How else are we going to try and stop breeders like this? Get everything in writing from the vet complete with pictures. Keep a copy of the advert. Contact Trading Standards, local council licensing and animal welfare dept. The breeders could also be reported to the tax man. The local press might also get involved. You can also contact the RSPCA. Puppy Love Campaigns might also be able to help. We need all the evidence and action possible against puppy farmers and irresponsible breeders.

Buying a puppy like this because you feel sorry for it just encourages them to breed more sick puppies.

I had a one of my pups new owners ring me just before Christmas,concerned about about a mutal'friend'who had bought a young 10 week old Malamute puppy from a well known Alaskan Malamute puppy mill in Wales.There concern was that the puppy was very small and didn't'look right'.ie looked more like a cross bearing in mind ear placement,size,bone structure etc.My pups were  over 6kg when 8 weeks old and this little pup was extremely small in comparison.The pup was meant to be KC registered but no paper work has materilised.
It saddens me as this person contacted me with regards to a puppy back in the Summer,but a) I had none available and b)they wanted one a little later but they visited me and my brood and I advised them the best I could = even recommending a great breeder who had a later litter.
However she e mailed me a couple of months ago saying she now had this puppy (wouldn't say were she got her from) but was concerned about the advise or lack of it.I ended up e mailing her my info pack.
This puppy mill has a all singing and dancing web site,is local authority registered and does occasionally register its pups with the K.C.But has a bad reputation,poor representatives of the breed and rattles off litter after litter.But still the K.C registers the occasional puppy and in the eyes of the law they have done nothing wrong :(  We can advise and support potential puppy owners,but there will always be people who will ignore advise and support the puppy mills.If your friends pup isn't K.C registered then the K.C can't help.Consummer direct may help if the 'goods aren't as described'.
I hope this puppy will start to thrive and I am sure it is getting the best care it deserves,fingers crossed it will develope a lovely temperment as too many puppy mill Mals have temperment and development issues.
If you have the dam and sires name then if the litter was registered it will be on the next BRS (my current one goes up to September)

I know people need to complain but to whom! In my experience the RSPCA will not be interested unless it has a build up of steam and a prosecution is near so that means the only effective people are likely to be the Trading Standards and they are only interested in the fact of the goods not being as advertised.

There is a new website just being set up to help people who have bought a sick puppy. The email helpline is active.

http://0350897.netsolhost.com/WordPress/

Part of the problem is the warning signs didn't register with her, which seems to be a common theme with jo public and is probably why so many breeders get away with stuff like this. If we complain to whoever we can - KC, RSPCA, etc then eventually the voices will be heard, and eventually the bells will scream for everyone as they should

I have a copy of the homemade pedigree for the pup along with its supposed KC name - I guess they put it on presuming all ok from the KC (if its registered!!) so I will see if it appears in the next BRS.

How else are we going to try and stop breeders like this?

All the time people are going to buy without listening to the information that's been around for years "See the Mother when you buy a puppy" then this sort of puppy producer will continue to thrive.  In fact in this time of recession when many homes are short of money I predict it will get worse.

It makes me cross that these sort of buyers make a lot of noise when trying to blame someone else when in fact THEY are at fault for not doing their research in the first place.  Most have access to the internet these days and a simple Google of 'How to buy a puppy' will bring up loads of basic information.  And if they're looking for a pedigree puppy, a phone call to the Kennel Club BEFORE they look at any litters will help them with simple facts.  Many treat buying a puppy in the same way as buying a new sofa! :(

If people didn't buy from these sort of places then they would have no financial benefit from producing poor quality, inferior puppies.

PS  Many very reputable breeders produce their own pedigrees, often with photos of the ancestors.  It makes a nice personal touch.

She can ring the KC and see if a litter has been registered/applied for with those parents.  If not trading standards are a starting point as the pup was  advertised as KC registered - they may well have other complaints on file for the breeders, however it could be a long process as the breeders may agree to send of reg. to string them along.  Agree with the advice about getting everything documented, photos of pup, vet details of condition and problems , may be helpful to get a statement for an experienced breeder of the breed saying where the pup differs from what should be expected at this age, and an assessment of real age?  Also don't forget to get them to print off and keep a copy of the online ad .

If it turns out the pup has been registered the problem is getting the breeders to hand over the paperwork.  I agree informing the KC would seem to be obvious but I honestly don't think you can expect them to do anything unless the breeder turned out to be a member of the ABS.  If you can find other ads and see a pattern of how often these people breed then contact to their local enviromental health office may help if it looks like they should be licensed.

With regards the advert for this litter I would make sure you get this printed off the net if on there or get a hardcopy if in a paper asap so you have something to add to the evidence. With regards the vets I also think this is a must and get the vet to write a detailed account on their system too and also see if they can guess the age on this pupster too. Are there any good Mal breeders near to your friend who maybe could have a look at it and also assist in guessing its age? I'm sure a decent breeder would love to assist in getting the original breeder banned from anything like this in the future..

There are no mal breeders on the island, and very few knowledgeable enough owners. I have pm'd cornish mal on here with some pics for her take on the pup, and will probably email some other breeders in a bit - I work nights so am off to bed for a bit and will check in on this and add more info when I wake up

thanks everyone :)

If we complain to whoever we can - KC, RSPCA, etc

Unless they are ABS breeders the KC will not be in a position to do anything and as I said the RSPCA, although they have the authority to act, are unlikely to be interested at all. This is likely to be a case of miss selling and that would be the best way to go and contact the organisation that has been mentioned above, set up I believe to record these sort of complaints.

Although, I presume, if there are any complaints they will be kept on record???
So even if none of the organisations can do anything from one complaint, if everyone who buys a puppy like this complains to all of the above then there will be a point where something Can be done. If the complaints start stacking up on one premises or name, then they are more likely to act.
If noone complains nothing will ever be done.
So I would get them to complain to everyone that is mentioned :) :) :) They might get lucky with one, maybe not now, but in the future :)
Lea :) :)

I was once asked about a sending a Mal puppy to the channel islands(before I had my first litter) and she already had a Mal.If my memory serves me right it was from one of the most sucessful breeders in the u.k.

Good breeders are proud of their dogs and certainly would not play hide in a corner and not give their names.  bluntly I feel your friend was guilty of gross stupidity, and only have themselves to blame. 

Re the matter has she got the advert or can find it again.

However only option is to get in touch with Trading Standards as if anything was false in advertising, or anything she was promised (in writing) like KC reg has not been forthcoming then the seller was guilty of misrepresentation under the Trades description Act.

I would also advise they contact the Breed club who may be aware of any previous cases of such bad behaviour as breed clubs are often aware of those exploiting their breed (but powerless to do anything but steer people clear if asked for advice).

Always always check that a breeder has a good reputation in the breed by contacting a breed club to check them out, very few good breeders will not have affiliations with a breed club or be unknown to them.

> The pup is sold as being 8 weeks old but weighs only 1.3kg (thats NOT a typo.. 1.3 kg "8 week old" malamute pup..)

My elkhound puppies weight between 7 and 8 pounds at 6 weeks, and 9 -11 pounds at 8 weeks, and they only make 20kg adults of around 19 - 21 inches tall!

The diarrhoea would concern me in a young pup who could very quickly get dehydrated so I would keep the pup away from other dogs until the vet has seen him and made a diagnosis, hopefully it won't develop into something like parvo but if your friend didn't see other dogs she wont know what condition they were in.

Poor little mite!
Hope the pup continues to thrive x

Buyer Beware!
Who would part with money for a Mal puppy who is the size of a 12 week old Cavalier? Are they mad?

Yes its sad about the puppy and I hope they care for it- but they have unwittingly fuelled the appaling BYB epidemic and deserve to feel like utter fools.

You stop people like this by not buying from them in the first place!

I get angry (perhaps irrationally) when I hear people say they felt sorry for the pup and wonder if they feel sorry for the one that will replace it as well.

> when I hear people say they felt sorry for the pup and wonder if they feel sorry for the one that will replace it as well.

When I hear that old crock I always ask " dont you feel sorry for the poor mother? - you have just sentenced her to another cash crop."

If such breeders couldn't sell the puppies they would be asking a rescue to take them (and should be asked for a donation from a rescue for doing so) where they then could be rescued for a donation, and the breeder would be very unlikely to repeat the exercise.

In such cases as this what is to stop them doing it again, as they made money out of the buyer.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">If such breeders couldn't sell the puppies they would be asking a rescue to take them (and should be asked for a donation from a rescue for doing so) where they then could be rescued for a donation, and the breeder would be very unlikely to repeat the exercise.<br />

A bit like this.....  http://www.walesonline.co.uk/2011/12/14/the-owner-couldn-t-even-give-them-away-91466-29949772/

An 'accidental mating' resulting in 29 puppies.  Yeah, pull the other one.

Just going to post that link on the Post re wanting to mate the pet Working cocker.

>http://0350897.netsolhost.com/WordPress/<

I would not use a site where I could not see to whom the reports are going to.

How would anyone know if this is legit?

Who has set up this site? Does anybody know?

Do they offer advice or help?

Just worried people might get given the wrong information.

This site has been done by an experienced breeder with lots of knowledge of dogs and the law. I would trust it and they will be offering help and advice. It is very new at the moment and I am sure that there will be more info on there soon.

Mandy I agree with Polly on this one.  However well intent the breeder is they must give their details or an name of organisation and why they are requesting the information and what it will be used for otherwise people do not know who is behind the face of the blog asking for what is after all personal information.  Remember too that if a data base is set up online they need to register with data protection and any information held if requested under FOI must be disclosed. However good intended the idea it must be seen to be open and transparent in its intentions and intended use of info held.

Think the idea is good but a little more thought before up and fully running is required.

doesn't fill one full of confidence when 'about us' prints the word scurge(sic) . Last time I looked at a dictionary it is scourge .

I would also be worried about the Data Protection Act compliance on this site.

In my area we know that somehow the dog thieves are finding out addresses of dog owners and breeders and then stealing their dogs. The last three days have seen 3 spaniels, a sprocker and the Tibetan spaniels all being stolen.

Also as Pat says how would the information be used? Suppose a breeder does all the health tests available and then nature throws in a problem? Is that breeder going to have their name for ever blackened? I am very open about health results and have said on here and other places before that as an example of this I bred a litter of pups, from that litter one had a hip score way over average. Our average is currently  a total of 9 but this one pup had a total of 28! Nothing in the pedigree scored higher than a total of 5.

There are many very experienced breeders here on champdogs, and even some vets who breed dogs and breeders whose relatives are vets. Perhaps they might have more knowledge to offer somebody with a problem? I have heard some daft things put around about my breed flatcoated retrievers by so called experts, who have never owned or breed a litter, and clearly did not know what they were talking about.

I think that Pat has summed it up well with her comments. This site could back fire seriously and cause a lot of problems for both caring responsible breeders as well as the 'experienced breeder' who has set this up.

I have spoken to the person who has set up the site. The website as I said before is still under construction and will include all the information required. I was mistaken in saying that she was a breeder but she is somebody who is well known as campaigning for change in dog breeding legislation and pedigree dog health.

MandyD,
Did she make PDE too?

Well if it is previously she has not checked up on details before putting things onto the WWW and distributing paperwork so it is not a site that I would be happy about unless it was strongly policed by others.

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/11/discover-dogs-2011.html

Please read the blogs by Annie Macfarlane (assuming it is the same person) at end of this piece. She has got a pretty good grasp of copyright and media law.....

It is clear to me, anyway, that Ms McFarlane is a Jemima supporter and on that basis I would be wary about using the site. It is clear also that the person knows the law.

"We appreciate that dog breeding is not an exact science and in no way are targeting breeders who do everything possible to ensure they produce healthy puppies. Indeed, we want to celebrate everything that is good about dog breeding by removing those that give them a bad name."

Doesn't sound too bad to me.

In Annie's own words

I have a group on Facebook called "We support PDE2 and ethical dog breeding". It was never my intention to promote my group to the wider world but I feel the time has come for us all to join together; get as many organisations concerned about welfare to complain. I plan on starting a Petition to move the whole area of dog breeding, dog health and the selling of puppies - registration - from the Kennel Club and to an independent body that has the teeth to stop what is going on today. If you feel strongly about this subject, please join as many Groups as you can so that we can try and make a difference.Source: http://dogbloggers.com/puppyfarmnews/2011/12/04/happy-christmas-maybe-not/

lincolnpimp if that is the agenda you support that is fine. It is useful though to be crystal clear about what the agenda is.

The helpline website has been updated and includes the following info. The only agenda here is helping people who have bought a sick puppy to use the law to get justice. It is a shame that it needs to be an individual over here that makes the effort like this. There is a big court case coming up in the USA where one of the big animal welfare organisations are co-ordinating the mass suing of an online puppy broker who sells sick puppy farms puppies.

"The "free" service is operated by Annie Macfarlane who has experience of helping owners take disreputable breeders to court seeking justice for their pets.  The laws in the UK are very straightforward and the sale of puppies are covered by The Sale of Goods Act 1979 generally but also The Misrepresentation Act and, on occasion, The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Legislation.  The latter being when a breeder, trader or pet shop uses a contract that has "unfair" terms and is slanted towards the breeder/seller - thereby reducing the rights of the consumer.  These laws are there to protect consumers and anybody buying a puppy has those rights enshrined in common law."

> I plan on starting a Petition to move the whole area of dog breeding, dog health and the selling of puppies - registration - from the Kennel Club and to an independent body that has the teeth to stop what is going on today.

The majority of dogs born and owned in the UK have no KC registration, and those of us seriously involved in canine hobbies and the maintenance of breeds do not wish to be taken away from the Kennel club, yes it needs to change to be more of an organisation run by dog people for dog people and dogs, but I certainly would not want some independent organisation that knows Diddley squat about our 'Fancy' getting more involved than they are already.

I would like to see the legal definiton of pedigree dog as it is in Canada quoted here: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/canadian_laws.htm
"What is a "Purebred" Dog?
Defined by the Canada Animal Pedigree Act, a purebred dog is a dog that has parents of the same breed that are registered with the Canadian Kennel Club.  One can NOT sell a dog as purebred without papers from the registry as well it is ILLEGAL in Canada to charge extra money for those papers! "

Maybe then teh easy target of KC breeders getting the blame for al the ills of pedigree dogs would be shown to be false in the vast majority of cases.

>a purebred dog is a dog that has parents of the same breed that are registered with the Canadian Kennel Club.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that - what about breeds that aren't KC recognised?

> what about breeds that aren't KC recognised?

Well they are not pedigree breeds unless registered with a recongised breed registry.  This covers ISDS etc.

I'm thinking of import breeds, that are (say) FCI recognised but not by our KC.

'Purebred' shouldn't be linked to registration - there are so many pedigree (as in having a known ancestry) purebred (all the ancestors are known to be of the same breed) dogs that aren't registered; working gundogs are typical where the bloodlines are pure but they're not KC registered.

but they should not be sold as purebred it they are not.  If they are purebred they should be registered, as that is the only independent record of their being purebred.

Breeds not recognised by UK KC can still be registered with the FCI as they are now, that is a regognised reputable umbrella organisation.

If you accept all unregistered dogs as purebred you have the mess we have now where we are told that purebred dogs are unhealthy, where the vast majority of these have no proof of ancestry,adn may not even be purebred.

>but they should not be sold as purebred it they are not.  If they are purebred they should be registered, as that is the only independent record of their being purebred.

I disagree. If their ancestors are known to all be of the same breed then they are purebred dogs, with or without registration. If people import a (currently) non-recognised breed, and breed them, those puppies are purebred and pedigreed, just unregistered.

>If you accept all unregistered dogs as purebred

Nobody's suggesting that, because obviously the vast majority of unregistered dogs aren't purebred - a substantial number have totally unknown sires, let alone of a known breed!

The definition of 'purebred' can only be "where all ancestors are the same breed". No more, no less.

I have just heard of a site with PAAG and the Dogs Trust where they are asking for info from people who have bought a sick puppy. The new Helpline site is for helping people with the legal side of it.

http://paag.org.uk/buying-a-pet/report/