I started weaning some 4 week old pups a few days ago due to the dam starting to growl and being in obvious discomfort (puppies teeth are through and their nails are like razorblades).
I've cut down her water rations and reduced her food by 50% but she's still producing and looking quite full.
Is there anything else i can do to help her dry up quickly and prevent mastitis?

Thanks

>puppies teeth are through and their nails are like razorblades

Keeping the pups' nails trimmed is vitally important; you'll need to check them every few days.

I would NEVER reduce the water intake for any dog.

And, as has already been said, the puppies nails should have been regularly trimmed. They will probably need doing every few days.

I would be concerned about a bitch growling at her puppies for trying to feed at this age. In fact, I've rarely (if ever!) heard my bitches growl at any of their pups for any reason!

I would certainly be expecting one of my bitches to keep feeding the pups until at least 6 or 7 weeks of age, and often they will give little suckles to their babies for longer than this. I'm not saying that I wouldn't begin the weaning process til this age - I generally make a start at around 3 weeks, depending on the size of the litter and how the bitch is coping, but I'd expect the bitch to be feeding the pups as well.

She's at the time of greatest milk production, and the pups need this milk. It's the right time to start weaning, but they'll still need to feed from mum several times a day for st least another two weeks, after which time the pups will be having enough solid food to only need token suckles, and she needs enough intake of both high-quality food and fluid at least until that time, otherwise mastitis is almost a certainty.

She's growling because they're hurting her - get those nails clipped and bathe any sores on her undercarriage (the wounds can be quite nasty) and she'll be happier to wean the puppies naturally.

A question from a non breeder but a previously breast feeding mum ( years ago I will add) To reduce milk production would you ever advise to reduce water intacke. With humans this would not be advised and as milk production is on demand the less the suckling takes place the less milk is produced I would have thought the same in dogs.

Already answered :)

Thanks ridgielover was concerned when op had stated this but working on my human knowledge which is reasonable and I dont think we are much different in alot of theings :) I just wanted to make sure a I was right and B that no one did this :)

Actually, My midwife told me to cut down on fluids for a few days when I stopped feeding my daughter and the milk build-up was excruciating. 

I would still let her feed the pups(after trimming their nails) but only with supervision.  Make sure she knows that the growling is not acceptable and if you are unsure of her, muzzle, but I would still let her around the pups even if just to empty the milkbar.  At 4 weeks, the pups will empty her quickly especially if you time the milk feed straight after the puppy food, sort of like a drink. And this will save her from getting too engorged and you could cut down the feeds slowly which is better for her and the pups.  Just make sure she is supervised and cannot hurt the pups.

I know the breed but I would still be concerned about the pups temprement from a bitch like this.  I owned large, guarding breeds but have never known any to growl at their pups while feeding.  In fact, my one of my bitches acted as a foster mum to another litter.  How is your bitch going to teach the pups lessons if she has to be taken away?  I would hope that she will still be able to be around them although not for feeding?

Well thats different cracar yes increase from normal when feeding usually your own thirst guides that anyway but back to normal when you stop is usually driven but your self as well
However I am going off at a tangent sorry folks and I also know that there are many different theories about breastfeeding so i will stop there

Re: Water Intake.
The dam has been in our whelping room for the last few weeks and it was twice as hot as she is usually used to, so she's been drinking 3-4 times her usual daily amount and all we've done is cut it back to "normal" now that the pups are no longer on her. She's not deprived of fluids if that's the way it came across....she's getting an adequate amount.

Re continuing to let the pups suckle:
We wanted to keep them on till 6-7 weeks but these are very demanding and lively eaters and we think the bitch has done her job and we want to give her a rest. We weigh the pups daily and they're still gaining just fine on the porridge so i think they'll do o.k without the mothers milk now.

I heard that a vet can give an injection (possibly estrogen) that slows the milk production down??. Has anyone done this or got an opinion on it?
(I realise that milk production will slow naturally anyway but leaving her teats full for a couple of weeks worries me a bit)

The only thing I know of that you can get from the vet to stop milk production is Galastop? however it isn't an injection, I think its drops?
I have never used it but do know people who have used it for stopping milk production during a phantom. You need to speak to your vet for advice on this.
Paula

>We wanted to keep them on till 6-7 weeks but these are very demanding and lively eaters and we think the bitch has done her job and we want to give her a rest.

The fact that they're demanding shows that they're ready to start weaning, not be taken from her completely. I personally think removing the pups from her totally is a mistake. They still need her for far more than just feeding (although they still need that); she needs to teach them canine manners, without which they'll turn into problem puppies for their new owners. Yes, she needs a rest from them a couple of times a day (mothers always appreciate a rest from their toddlers!) but not to lose them completely.

Cracar, your reply blows things out of proportion a bit, no offence.
She's been the perfect mother till now and it's only because of the teeth and nail assault that she's given the "occasional" growl. These pups don't just find a teat, stay in one place, and suckle nicely, its a total feeding frenzy and her teats take quite a battering at this stage.

I suppose we could just trim the nails down as suggested but to be honest it's been a long few months for her, she needs a rest, and i've put her back in with our other dogs now.
She's really happy to see them all again after being in solitary for so long,... so i'm leaving her where she is and finnishing the pups off myself.
She still gets to see her pups and teach what "doggy mothers" teach, but i'm doing the bulk of the work for her from now and she's content to just sit back and watch. lol

Jeangenie...please see the above post.
I appreciate your opinion, but feeding solids/porridge at this stage is not going to create problem pups. They still spend time with their mother, but i dont let them feed off her that's all (she wears a tshirt lol).

Pups that receive a lot of human interaction are the ones that make the best family pets, so feeding done by a human is actually beneficial to the bonding process and not something to be seen as a negative.
We've handled our pups extensively since birth and even done some bottle feeds to help the dam so i seriously doubt there'll be any "human issues" with this litter as they're already well bonded and accustomed to people.

Thanks Paula, i''do some research into galastop to see exactly what it is.
Going to call my vet tomorrow too, to see what they suggest i do.

Thanks for the replies all.

>These pups don't just find a teat, stay in one place, and suckle nicely, its a total feeding frenzy and her teats take quite a battering at this stage.

That's normal, and the behaviour that encourages the bitch to start slow, natural weaning.

>I suppose we could just trim the nails down as suggested

Definitely do that anyway - it's part of general good puppy care.

>i seriously doubt there'll be any "human issues" with this litter as they're already well bonded and accustomed to people.

It's canine issues that could be the problem in the future.

NO No no, at four weeks their main nutrition is still bitches milk and this will naturally reduce as pups eat more solids until at 6 - 8 weeks it will be minimal and as each pup goes off to it's new home the milk will have dried up by 12 weeks or so.

Pups need their mothers influence and example and she should be free to come and go to them, but also be able to get away as she pleases.  This is easily done by using a barrier that she can get over but they can't.

The growling is most likely due to pain from the weeks of scratching and now teeth making her sore. 

I normally start nail trimming in the first week and do them once or twice a week.  If she is able to get away when she chooses pups will soon realise if they are too rough she will leave.

My bitches are never in solitary away from their canine companions and in fact once pups are mobile the other adults have access to them also, as theya re moved to the kitchena dn then use teh dog run with jsut a boradr across the entrance so Mum and others cnan interact when they wish, but most of the older ones choose not to have much to do with them if they are already matrons themselves (been there done that attitude).

Re human weaning if it is done gradually on supply and demand it works exactly the same, the only time it needs anything else is if the feeding stops suddenly. I stopped at 2 months with my first and it was horrible, but fed youngest until 14 months by which time it was just bedtime.

uk_boerboels - I think you really are making a mistake! It is far better for the pups to be weaned slowly and for the bitch to be able to go into and out from the pups as SHE wants to. If you do it this way, then she will gradually dry up and you won't have to resort to drugs, and it is easier on the pups' digestion to have new foods mixed in with mum's milk. And she will be in a position to teach her babies doggy manners. A win win situation as far as I can see.

Are you suggesting that those of us wean as above don't actually interact with our puppies?? Of course we do! Responsible breeders spend huge amounts of time with their puppies. When I'm weaning and feeding puppies, I feed them around 5 to 6 times a day!

You are being given advice by breeders with many, many years of experience - our only motivation in giving such advice is to help

I appreciate all your answers and i'm taking in what has been said.
I've just clipped their nails as suggested but i'm not putting them back on mum for all feeds again because i think she's done enough (and probably "had" enough too by the look on her face most of the time lol )
The weaning's going perfectly so i'll continue with it but let mum have them for the odd feed here and there everyday.

P.S when i said i was feeding them myself i didn't mean "actually" feeding them myself (e.g by hand/bottle, one at a time)
The porridge goes into shallow trays that are put on the floor, all i do is let the pups out and lead them to the feeding area so they can all get stuck in :)
It's no different to feeding an older puppy or an adult dog but i think some may have misunderstood what i said.

Have a great New Year Folks.
Cheers.

> The porridge goes into shallow trays that are put on the floor, all i do is let the pups out and lead them to the feeding area so they can all get stuck in :-)
>

After they have had their fill and have left some of it that is the time to let Mum in to finish off the food she will then not view the pups negatively and they will be gentler with their suckling and Mum will stay comfortable.

At some point the pups will shoe less interest in Mum as they adjust to feeding themselves, a much gentler process.  You'd be amazed at just how much pups can get in just a half minute or so.

They will also need more than the 4 or 5 meals of weanibng food we would normally have them on at this age.

It is not natural at all to totally wean puppies so soon after they start solids.

Puppy porridge isn't designed to be a replacement for mum's milk - it's supposed to be in addition to start the weaning process. You give them the porridge then allow mum in to finish what's left and top them up with milk. This way they demand less milk so she gradually dries up naturally and painlessly..

Also the litter still needs mum there at night; make sure that she has free access to come and go from them. This way weaning will be painless for all, and you'll have no need to upset her with medication; I've known bitches be quite poorly after being given Galastop - it's something I'd avoid if possible, and you've got a far better way of drying up her milk for free!

I understand human interaction is extremly important for good rounded puppies but is it not necessary particularly to have a lot of doggie interaction first not sure if I have explained myself properly.
I was thinking of an outcome of dogs that are perfect with humans but are lacking in dog manners.
Would this still bethe case in dogs who are weaned so early and only spending limited time with my not by choice but by the arrangements.
I am not trying to offend anyone particularly theop who may be a knowledgeably breeder jsut learn for interest.

I thought the 3 bears ate porridge.....

The Pups will be frantic at her boobs as they are hungry. I don't feed Pups porridge, what do you think those teeth are for? They need mums milk for immunity as well as nourishment. I'm usually trimming Pups nails every few days and they can have little tallons a few days after birth. Perhaps something a little more substantial to fullfill the Pups hunger. And if I didn't drink properly whilst breastfeeding baby was fine but I wad severely constipated lol! Try some tripe raw lamb mince and a chicken wing each see how.your Pups chow Down and then a comfort sickle.off mummy as they wont br ravenous full of carbs! Oh and a little goats milk Luke warm to get them lapping.

Louise - we're talking about puppy weaning porridge, not breakfast type porridge :)

Sorry, UK Boerboels, I was thinking it must've been worse than it sounds now from what was posted.  Absolutely no offence taken and I hope the same with what I have written.

When my pups are around that age, I start to let mum enjoy life again.  Some bitches just want a snuggle on the sofa with me and some want a game with a squeaky ball and their pack but I had one bitch that wanted to go out walks again so I let her.  I think it's a lot to segrigate the bitch for the other dogs after so much time, they miss their buddies don't they?lol.  Maybe a bit of me time will make her a better mum with her pups and she maybe will be a bit easier going on them after that.  I know I need it away from my kids or I'd do a LOT of growling!!
Best of luck with your pups and 2012.

I have to agree with Brainless from my own experiences with weaning pups.

I'm glad the OP has managed to trim puppies' nails, if not done, I would imagine it agony for the bitch.

Once pups have had a meal of solids (in my case I made up a "porridge" of well soaked good quality puppy kibble) finished by warmed fresh Goat's milk, mum would then come in, clear up any left overs and the pups would have a suckle.

They shouldn't  be nearly so frantic if their bellies are already full before you let her in with them.

I should add that they started weaning with best beef mince rolled into little balls - my goodness I couldn't believe how quickly 3 week old puppies "cottoned on"!!

Good luck with the litter, I remember how exhausting the whole thing is!

Our last litter were still having quick suckles from mum on the day the first one went at 8 weeks. She called it a day with feeding when we were down to 3 pups much more able to "control" the little terrors lol!

I'm by far not the most experienced person to answer, but having recently had a litter whose dam was very uncomfortable feeding from 3 weeks, I can say that you should NOT be limiting their time with mum. My bitch, although uncomfortable WANTED to be with her pups. Your bitch knows better than you, if she really is unhappy about feeding them then she will not feed them. You should make it so that she has free access to them but not vice versa.
My bitch would have been very unhappy had i tried to limit her time with them, even though it was making her uncomfortable. It is only for a few more weeks before she will limit them right down herself and they will want to feed less and less.
My pups are almost 9 weeks and dams milk production slowed right down from 6 weeks, and is now almost none existant...but she STILL lets the two still here feed when she feels like it. I have never stopped her feeding them if she has wanted to.

Thanks again to all for the replies. Knowledge is power and i'm always eager to learn new things from those with more experience.!!!

LouiseDDB i think you've partaken in one too may new years eve beverages before your reply :)
The "Porridge" is not rolled oats in milk as per the 3 bears fairytale, it's Orijen large breed puppy and/or Arden Grange Premium soaked and blended to a smooth pulp with whelpi, esbilac, or water. (calculated amounts)

All the best you lush!!!
:)

>I've just clipped their nails as suggested

Can I ask if you have been doing this regularly? 

Jean, Being honest, no i haven't and i wasn't aware that i would need to either.

I've been so wrapped up in 3 hour feeds , bathing-cleaning-and-drying the pups , constantly changing bedding and doing the laundry , sanitising everything in sight with trigene, and trying to answer constant emails and phonecalls at the same time as dealing with a hectic personal life, that it didn't really seem important until now.

Raising puppies can be seriously demanding!!!!. There's never enough hours in a day to get everything done to perfection lol :)

I'm sure with the nails cut and  pups full from weaning food she will find it more comfortable and be happier. 

Probably TMI but from a human perspective of breast feeding when my son got teeth and the imp tried a nibble all I had to do was ah ah, and remove the breast and he never did it again.  It was never uncomfortable feeding even with a full mouthful of teeth.

It's one of the few things that I don't think really gets mentioned in the books.  But from about the first week on I do clip the toenails at least once a week.  They develop little 'hooks' at the end past the quick so I use really sharp human  nail clippers (start with fingernail ones and then graduate to toenail ones before moving up to dog nail scissors).

I let my bitch come and go as she pleased from when I started weaning.  She would still spend most of the night with them, or come out and sleep on the sofa.  She let them have a quick suck up to 7 or 8 weeks, but they'd drain her really quick (7 of them), and then she'd walk away.  I knew from her demeanour when I'd let the nails go a bit too long.

Since yours haven't been trimmed till now I'd probably suggest getting some Aloe Vera Gel (I used the forever living on a couple of her teats that got really raw the first couple of weeks) and rub it in to help ease it.  I bet now that their nails are done she'll be much better about it.  It is better to let the bitch decide when to stop feeding than to force her too.

I do know that it can look really awful how hard the pups are on them.  We called ours the Ravenous Zombie Hoarde!!  And the previous litter we called the Piranha's.  But it's typical, and if you give mum the freedom to do what she wants she'll do fine.

She would be in with them right after their feeds as others have suggested above, and she usually would ask in once or twice through the afternoon evening.  At 4 weeks she was still mostly sleeping with them.

We also were letting them spend as much time outside as possible so often outside they would hang on to her for a few minutes before heading off to play.  She slowly weaned them off till by 8-9 weeks they were barely having any - or it was just a quick minute.  And she was more than happy.

If I'd stopped her from getting to them it really would have stressed her.  And in addition to the nutrition they still need her milk for their immune systems.

Hope the nail clipping makes a difference.

And yes, it's busy and stressful, and most of us can relate :)

Happy New Year

Why create yourself more work when their mum can do it.  My girl dictacted when her babies fed and told them off if she didn't want them to.  she fed them to almost 12 weeks.  I'm sure your breed won't be on mum for that long, mine's a small breed.

If it helps they need mum's interatcion as there are many dogs that are used for fighting that have been removed fron mum for the reason of not having the interaction.  You don't want them with those sort of issues as others have said a little more eliquently than me.  I think it was on here that someone had a phone call to ask if the 5 week old pup could be taken away from mum and isolated as it was to be a guard/fighting dog.  I', not suggesting that's your intention but the pups need mum to teach them.

I also think the mum should dictate when she wants to be with the pups or not, my bitch wanted back into the lounge after a week, she had been up in one of the bedrooms and was missing out on the normal daily routine, I brought her and the pups down in a crate so the other dogs could look at the pups but not touch, at night they went back up to the puppy pen.

At 3 weeks the puppy pen came downstairs and they slept with Mum in a crate at night till 8 weeks, by 4 weeks the other dogs were allowed to interact with the pups under supervision and Mum was happy to share her duties, seeing my male cleaning pups was amazing, he got quite a shock when they started looking for milk.  She started to reduce feeding the pups at 4weeks and stopped by 8 weeks but she was allowed to stop at her own pace which prevented her from becoming engorged.

Yes those nails are like needles and grow very quickly and do need trimming frequently from the off.

I hope the OP's pups and dam get on well.

My girls get fed up at around 5 weeks so they are allowed to freely roam but the pen is always open for them to go back in at feed times and they still stay in all night with the pups.  Pups claws should be trimmed right from the beginning they get really long, are fine and very sharp!

I would never, ever want my dogs milk to dry up at such an early age in the pups lives.

Louise DDB has made a very important comment. start weaning onto a minced raw meat or chicken wings, it is far more natural and nutritional than these "porridge" and convenient dried foods.
Whoever heard of any natural meat eating animal feeding its young "porridge". It may be convenient for you but fresh meat is by far the best start for a puppies delicate tummy, and loads of mums own milk untill at least 6 weeks of age.
Give mum the choice to be with her puppies or not, leave the door open or give her a box or chair to get away from them, do trim the claws.
The whole process should be ejoyable for both mum and yourself, Don't make it a major problem !
Most of the comments that you are getting are very sensible and valuable.  Good luck

I have just seen this thread and wanted to reassure the original poster with my thoughts. I have a terrier breed. My bitches have great temperaments with people and almost without fail, the puppies I have had that have gone to single homes have been very well socialised and wonderful family pets.
Having said that, my bitches are great Mum's for 2 to 3 weeks and then start the process of handing over to me. All of them have growled at their puppies when they consider they are doing something wrong and around 4 to 5 weeks definitely do as if they are saying, come on you can be independent now. I also think by now she has done her bit, rearing them through the early stages " on her own".
I have never had or tried to dry up early but have needed to watch for mastitis. They are given free rein to go in and out with their puppies and as time goes on, this time gets less and less. I have always believed this is Mum's way of disciplining their pups and have never worried about it. Of course the nails should have been done regularly from birth but you have learnt this now.
I think you do need to know the difference between a bitch that is merely telling the pups off and one who is going to hurt them. I feed a good quality weaning food and it is a matter of opinion as to whether this is better or worse than mince which I have never used. Puppies I have reared have done very well with this food and I have always had healthy dogs with no skin problems etc. My own that I keep are testament to that.
Good luck. Socialise them well and hopefully yours will make great family pets.
Diane