Hi everyone!
I have an 18 month old working cocker bitch and want to breed from her next year and need some advice. She has a good pedigree with various field champions, but she is a pet. We have had this breed for over 13 years (all pets), but well exercised and kept very busy! I am not looking at this as a money making project at all, but have never bred my own pups and is something that I really want to do. Meggie (the possible future mum) has a great temprament and although can be a little bit shy of meeting new people (non aggressive) is a fantastic little dog with kids and out in the open is completely fearless and I have never seen such an athletic dog! We live in the highlands of scotland and I know that puppies may sell as pets or working and her temprament would actually suit both, I think. What I would like to know is what I should do as to health screening and finding the right mate, if I decide to go ahead. I would appreciate any help!
Thanks
Pauline

My genuine advise would be don't.
There are so many reasons why you should not even consider it.
 
There are so many puppies produced.  Take a look at the free ads.  Advert after advert of cocker puppies and the majority are working type.  It will be very hard to place yours in appropriate homes that can manage these lively little dogs.
There are plenty of good working cockers proving themselves in the field.  Why would anyone want to buy a puppy from you? 
Not only has she not be proven as a good working cocker, your bitch does not have a typical cocker temperament.

I believe you when you say this is not about money because working cockers do not fetch much of a price, especially from unproven stock but it really isn't worth it for other reasons.  Breeding is jolly hard work and can be heart breaking when things do not go well.  You are then responsible for those puppies for the rest of their lives so should be prepared and able to take any back if their placement fails.   If it is another puppy you want you would be do very, very much better to look for one from an experienced and reputable breeder.

I have to agree with Stooge. I have four dogs, 3 f/c's and a working cocker. my working cocker is my pet first & foremost, she is a fab worker, great temprement, but I run taining classes and see too many WCS go to pet homes where they do not get the correct stimulation/excersise. sadly a lot of the owners thought they were you show type spaniels and not prepared for the differance in the two.

Hi Stooge
I maybe played down Meggie a bit. She is not nervy, but maybe just not just the 'in your face' typical cocker!! She is the most athletic dog that I have ever seen, but as I stated in my last post puppies would not be sold as proven working dogs. I live on a croft and have three young working cockers (all pets) and many people in this area have working dogs as pets. It must be all the open spaces and the love of walking with a dog that can keep up! There are no specialised dog breeders round here so no 'glut' of pups and know of a couple of people who are looking. As I said in my last post I am not at all interested in making money but would love to have pups from her (not intending keeping a pup as have 2 other working cockers!)

I know how much exercise they need and would NEVER sell to someone who wanted a 'house pet'. I had a freind many years ago with a show cocker and if it walked 100 yards before deciding it was time for home that was a long walk! My dogs will run all day and in fishing season have swam half a very large loch, and eaten the catch, so I do know their foibles!

Thing is PPD if you are not wanting to keep a pup why are you willing to lose your bitch on a whim that you fancy breeding her.

Not wanting to be harsh or rude but you have given no good reason for putting your pet bitch at risk so why do it?

I think cockers need hip tests, not sure what else. Problem is in my (not much) experience, most of the working cocker people don't do health testing at all, so it's going to be virtually impossible to find a working sire that has been tested. :-( Sorry we haven't been able to be more positive.

Surprised that working cockers are so under rated! And sires not health checked? Maybe my love for the breed and my hopes to pass on my lovely spaniels genes and personality will be wasted :(    And other 'handbag dogs' are the in thing - Maybe I should start a campaign for working off some pounds (weight) with a cocker lol!!!

Cockers need eye tests from a specialist ophthamologist vet; I know a lovely little working cocker who's only 3 years old and is going blind from one of the hereditary conditions. :-(

KC tests for cockers are for prcd-PRA and FN, recommended are hip scoring & gonioscopy for glaucoma.

As Lucydogs says, I've also heard it said that it is very difficult to find health tested, esp hip scored, workers. 

Why no tested workers? I am not in the showing/ft circle so are working less valued and therfore not tested?

Think it may be that in working circles if they have a good working animal they just breed it keep the best working lines going, show people wishing to register their dogs with the KC will do all the required tests and will only breed from the dogs with the best health and conformation and if they think the pups they produce will improve on what they have, well that is what the best of breeders do.

Could be that the working people only breed from the best as well but they are only interested in the working ability and will only keep the best from the litter they are not that interested in conformation and health only their field ability, the unwanted pups will be sent to pet homes if available.

Think there is also a bit of an atitude that the 'problems' are more to do with the show lines and not so common amongst the workers.  Not sure how much of that is true however. 

The following link gives you the health tests that are needed and the reasons why

http://www.workingcockerhealthscreendirectory.com/healthissues.htm

Have you tried contacting the breeder of your girl to seek their advice? There might even be restrictions on her pedigree preventing you breeding from her.  You said she had a good pedigree so they should be able to guide you as to the should you/should you not debate and also as we cannot see your dog, but they would know the lines etc guide you to a potential match if you decide to go ahead.

As for health tests, this is what the Kennel Club recommends for the Cocker Spaniel [url=]http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=2052 [/url]and some information about each test (hope that link works lol).

> Why no tested workers? I am not in the showing/ft circle so are working less valued and therefore not tested?

There is a mistaken belief among many working dog owners breeders who perhaps do not get to see the bigger picture beyond their own line or local dogs believe that the hereditary conditions do not affect their dogs. 

Just because the dogs are working well they think they can't have Hip dysplasia or go blind or have kidney failure.  A friend has a failed FT bred springer, turns out he wasn't eager to work as he has terrible Hip dysplasia (he was under a year old).  There are some working side breeders getting more enlightened.

The DNA tests and the Hips scoring and eye testing will easily set a breeder back £500 or more.

The vast majority of people who truly want a working type cocker will go to a specialist breeder of WORKING dogs and pet owners want classic chocolate box cockers and often buy the pet bred workers mistakenly believing that is what they will turn into.

Few people wanting purely a pet in this day and age are really suitable for a dog with strong working drives.

The other thing about breeding is it takes a lot of knowledge of bloodlines health background etc to do a good job of it.  So you really need to be involved in the breed clubs, working your dogs etc, otherwise your working in isolation blindfolded.

You say your bitch though lovely is not a typical in your face cocker, she should be to be bred from to produce typical puppies.  Apart from your own sentiments about her what in an unbiased way would she positively add to the breeds betterment by having puppies, that her relatives in experienced hands wanting to produce good workers will not?

Breeding is expensive, especially the first litter when so much equipment and one offs need to be covered.  A C section in surgery hours can set you back £500, in the small hours 3 times that.  Would you realise if your bitch was in trouble?

Do you have good breeders who you can rely on, who have vested interest in your bitch and her bloodlines to guide you (A mentor/Mentors)

Then there is the responsibility and homing and supporting the new owners.  give me the dogs any day over the worry about the right people.

If you really feel you want to get more deeply involved in your breed I would first suggest joining your local Cocker breed club, they all have working sections and events.  Start training your bitch and possibly go beating etc to see what the working cocker is all about.  In this way you will gain knowledge in what makes a good Working cocker, what the strengths and weaknesses of various bloodlines are, and if you ever got on to have a top class dog or bitch then you may decide to contribute to the next generation by allowing your dog to be used by ethical breeders or breed. 

Breeding should be about producing excellent typical examples of their breed, which needs to be objectively proven by comparing against their peers by working or showing.  There are more than enough puppies left over in litters for companions when those needs have been satisfied to ensure the next generation.

This might explain things a bit better showing types of breeder: http://www.pbrc.net/breeding3.html

You might like to put your bitches name and her parents into the Kennel Club Health checker and see what you find: http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx

Good advice Barbara :-) Just a point about the breed clubs though - only 2 Cocker breed clubs have field trial sections, The Cocker Spaniel Club and London Cocker Society. Neither of the Scottish Cocker clubs have working sections as far as I know.

http://www.londoncockerspanielfield.co.uk/

http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/

> Breeding is expensive, especially the first litter when so much equipment and one offs need to be covered.  A C section in surgery hours can set you back £500, in the small hours 3 times that.  Would you realise if your bitch was in trouble?

Here's my recent/current experience.  Out of hours C-section requiring x-rays and time before the section to bring bitch's fluid and chem levels up to where they felt it safe to operate - £1500.  We could have lost all pups AND mum.  First pup had been born naturally, but the second pup was malpresented across the birth canal and blocking the other 5 behind her.  We were lucky they all (and mum) survived.  But it was a very real possibility we could have lost all of them.

In addition I've spent close to another £1000 on pup number 1 who was cramped in utero so was born with her front legs all cramped up.  They've come mostly right, but her toe ligaments are overstretched from the way she used them while the legs came right and we don't know if the toes will come right, or if they'll pose real problems for her later in life (ie arthritis etc), or if she'll be fine but just have them look not right.  So far it's mostly cosmetic and she is fine on them now as far as walking and running and from a distance you'd never know there was a problem, however the issue couldn't be ignored and cost of investigating all of that plus rehab for her has already come close to 1k, and could potentially cost us more in the future if it does cause joint/arthritic issues and won't be covered by insurance.  It didn't occur to us for a second to put her down (though it may have to many breeders) because we know that these things happen in dogs and humans and most of those types of things do come right over time and from the outset she was a strong healthy happy pup.  Many breeders may have seen a defect and put the pup down, but while it doesn't affect her quality of life we won't.

However what this means is that we are also keeping her because we don't feel we could sell her or give her away so that means we are keeping 2 rather than the one we intended.  So not including ANY other costs (health tests, stud fees, travel, supplies, food etc) that's about £2500 in additional expenses!

Add to that that we had 5 males, there were several litters on the ground at the same time as ours, 4 people who had pre-booked before the mating was even done decided at the last minute to go elsewhere (to get their pup sooner or because they worried we wouldn't have enough, or because they liked the colour of the other litter better) or just didn't end up getting a pup at all, everyone enquiring after they were born wanted bitches, and at 16 weeks I still have 2 unsold boys as well as the 2 (was supposed to be 1) bitches that I'm keeping.

This was a litter that has been planned for 3 years, to fantastic foreign lines that many people admire.  The sire is from out of the country, and I had several enquiries and 'solid bookings' before the breeding from people who were very interested in having these lines and it was simpler to buy from someone using them than to jump through hoops to import.  But circumstances change, and even a couple of the most 'definite' buyers who I never would have thought would back out did because things changed beyond their control.  And because I had mostly boys the two people who booked bitches didn't get one...

This is my second litter.  I had plans to breed from the pup I kept.  After this I honestly don't know if I can do it again.  It's hard work when things go perfectly - this has really shattered me.  And I went into this breeding with my eyes WIDE open because we had a bit of a scare with our last whelping (completely unrelated to the issues we had with this one).  So I didn't think 'it can't happen to me' because I knew it could.

So I won't tell you not to do it, but I will tell you to think long and hard.  Is 'wanting to have a litter' enough to consider risking your bitch.  You may think people are saying this to scare you.  I'm telling you they're saying it because it's the truth.  Especially if you're not planning to keep one.  You could go through all of this, spend a lot of money and end up with no bitch and no pups.  This is a very real possibility that we all face every time we breed.  We all know it's a possibility but if we're honest with ourselves none of us believes it will happen to us, but it does anyway whether we want to believe it or not.

Or the opposite scenario...  Are you prepared to keep them as long as it takes to sell them?  What if they don't sell?  You don't want to keep one, but what if you have 6 or 7 pups, they don't sell at 8 weeks like we all expect them to, and you're like me at 16 weeks with 4-6 very busy active puppies - and you're talking about a busy active breed!  Are you honestly and truly prepared for that?  I knew in my head it could happen, but didn't really think it would because I had 6 'definite' buyers.  In fact before the breeding I was terrified I wouldn't have enough pups for everyone who booked.  7 puppies were wonderful when they were little, but then they get bigger and busier and naughtier and HARD WORK.  I had them all till 9 weeks, next went at 10, next at 13.  The older they get the more they need, and now when I should be focusing all my attention on training the 2 I was keeping I'm having to work a LOT harder because I have 4 to train and socialise and watch - in addition to my current 4 adults.

And I WAS prepared for this in my head!  But there are days (less now that they're a bit older and more integrated into the family and pack) that I have a complete meltdown and just have to have a 10 minute cry because it's STRESSFUL!  and FRUSTRATING.  And I love these puppies, but I just wish they had their forever homes.  Not because I can't cope (though I do have moments of not coping as I've said above), but because it's what they need and it breaks my heart every single day.

Are you honestly and truly prepared for the practical, financial and emotional toll that this could take on you.  If you can honestly answer yes, then go for it, but please please please think long and hard about why you want to do this.  If you do decide you would like to go ahead then the advice given to discuss this with your girl's breeder and get advice regarding lines etc is definitely the route to go.  But if I were in your position I really wouldn't do it.

(edited for spelling and grammar)

What a brilliantly honest post Wendy. I know people personally who are in the same boat as you. In todays economic climate people are thinking several times over before committing themselves to a dog. Good luck with your pups and I hope they go to their new homes soon.

We have recently had a super working cocker litter, but be warned - the best of the proven working sires are not health tested.     There are some on the working cocker health site that are tested, but I trhink I'm right in saying that none of these are FTCh's, and very very few of the tested dogs are proven in the field, which is really the reason that the breed exists in the first place. 

You may say that of course the breed is adaptable - for agility, flyball etc, but I think you will find that folk who try to convince you that they are going to do these activities sort of ......lose a degree of enthusiasm later on...!

We trawled through a lot of applications for ours before we found suitable homes, and we have quite a lot of experience with finding working homes.   You can only do your best, but you do need to interrogate every potential purchaser in every detail, as most of us would prefer not to have a working dog to rehome that has been ruined by someone else's misplaced good intentions.

If you test your little bitch, you will need the ordinary eye test, plus, ideally,  the KC recommended tests for  DNA for Familial Nephropathy and prcd-PRA.  This will probably cost around £160 or so, possibly more.         If you hip score as well (few working cockers have this) it could be the same amount again.     If  you can't find a suitable health tested  sire (this was my own problem) you should put it in writing to the new puppy purchasers in your puppy contract.

Jo
Casblaidd Working Gundogs

A family member had a beautiful Weimaraner working/show bitch, proven in both fields in fierce competition - she did really well every time out.   They did all the recommended heath tests for the breed plus a few more besides for their own satisfaction, researched pedigrees and found a suitable stud, had three mentors who were on hand to help.

The bitch was mated and all seemed well until she went over her dates, the vet was happy as the bitch was healthy and dates can be wrong.  Owner just felt something wasn't right and luckily called for my opinion, which was trust your instincts as I knew the bitch and the owners well.

Vet wasn't happy with their request to scan and nothing could be seen amiss, but the owners also insisted on x-rays at which point all changed.   An emergency op was needed to save both pup (just the one) and bitch.  Pup was delivered dead and the bitch's life hung in the balance for a week.

Vets fees £2000 in addition to test fees, stud fees etc.  

The bitch survived but was speyed to save her life so after all that and doing everything right they were out of pocket for over £2000 and had only a speyed bitch and a lot of worry for their trouble.

Please think long and hard about the very real dangers before you commit yourself to breeding your bitch and make sure you have some experienced mentors, had the owners listened only to their vet they would have lost the bitch as well as the pup.

Just wanted to say to Wendy that I wish you all the best with your pups, and hope you will find good homes soon. Had a little peep on your site and your two boys look just delightful.

Agree Esme, there are some lovely pictures of the boys on there.  I'm sure some fantastic homes are just around the corner.

> She is not nervy, but maybe just not just the 'in your face' typical cocker!!

To justify breeding and adding to the gene pool a dog should be typical.  Temperament is especially important in the Cocker.  It is what they are known for and what buyers will be expecting. 
Also, if she has not got the typical cocker temperament when people come to see her or her litter they may very well be put off by this.
I have no doubt working dogs are popular in your area but as I said there will be plenty of proven working dogs of correct temperament also being bred why would they chose to buy one from you?  You could easily produce six or seven pups with no where to go.

> Agree Esme, there are some lovely pictures of the boys on there.  I'm sure some fantastic homes are just around the corner.

Thanks everyone for your well wishes for my boys, but I worry that Admin will remove that section from my post as advertising.  I honestly didn't put that info to advertise but rather to warn the OP that it's not easy, and this is a very real situation they could find themselves in and I feel it was very important to include. The pups will stay with me for as long as they need to because the right homes are the most important thing.  And that's the commitment you make when you breed a litter. 

Also taking them back at any time in their lives.  Is the OP able/willing to do that (I forgot to add that part in my original post)

Edited to add that I also forgot to say in the original post that the reason we took her to the e-vet was a total 'gut' feeling.  She was taking a bit too long and I wasn't comfortable with how things were progressing, but speaking to mentors the advice was walk her and wait - it's not common, but not unusual.  But my gut just said something wasn't right so I went to the e-vet to ask for an x-ray to check...  If I hadn't gone when we did it's very likely we'd have lost everyone.

No bitch is by the book and it's only due to an instinct that something wasn't right that we got everyone through it alive.

Breeding dogs is not for the faint of heart that's for sure!

Excellent posts on this thread, hope the OP will listen.

(not intending keeping a pup as have 2 other working cockers!)

Highly recommend you don't breed then as there is no valid reason IMO

Once again it would seem the OP has gone - having asked for advice they have left because they did not get the advice they were hoping for and we are left waiting for the usual comments that we do not help and do not want new people to breed for some unspecified reason when the facts are that we can't see why anyone would breed for no good reason except that they can - it makes no sense at all.

Why would you put yourself to all the stress and expense and your bitch through the danger and pain of whelping for no reason - well no reason that we can find - of course no one with any sense would.

> Once again it would seem the OP has gone - having asked for advice they have left because they did not get the advice they were hoping for

Maybe, but she did come back and discuss about health tests etc, so I'd give her the benefit of the doubt until after the New Year.  It's a busy time of year so she may just be caught up with life and come back to have a read after things slow down. 

Yes, Wendy you are correct may be I should take the holiday period into account.

Do hope the OP comes back and tells us why she wishes to breed this bitch because there may be a good reason but on the face of it there seems no real reason at all.

Just thought I would post this link, http://www.walesonline.co.uk/2011/12/14/the-owner-couldn-t-even-give-them-away-91466-29949772/ to show what could happen, though I don't for a minute believe there were 29 puppies in one litter (more likely several litters) and not accidental either.

>I don't for a minute believe there were 29 puppies in one litter

Nor me.

Bol***ks come to mind - would be some sort of record I would think, the biggest white lie perhaps

What worries me is that the rescue seem to have swallowed the story and then repeated it to journalists

With that kind of stupidity in supposedly responsible rescue people what hope is there?   

At the very least, the wrong kind of people will be reading that and seeing pound signs, because of course, they'll still think they can sell x number of pups - and then rescue will take the rest ! 

Once again it would seem the OP has gone - having asked for advice they have left because they did not get the advice they were hoping for and we are left waiting for the usual comments that we do not help and do not want new people to breed for some unspecified reason when the facts are that we can't see why anyone would breed for no good reason except that they can - it makes no sense at all.

No, haven't gone because I didn't like what I heard! Husband in bed with flu, daughter has had sicky bug and I have been busy feeding and looking after 14 ducks, chickens, a goose (who thinks he is a chicken) 3 ponies and 3 lively dogs in awful winds with hail sleet and snow. To add to that the phone line keeps dying and our water has been off! Not surprisingly I have not really had the time to sit reading forums on the internet as looking after animals and family has been my priority. So please don't presume that I had taken the huff!!!!

I appreciate all the advice and will think long and hard about my reasons for wanting to breed. The most important thing is that I will not risk Meggie! And thanks to Wendy for giving me the benifit of doubt.

Sounds like you have your hands full

Just to add to your information overload ;)

A friend's bitch was due to whelp over the Christmas Holidays.  All was going well, until she failed to whelp on her due dates, a visit to the vets revealed the pups were all dead and she had a septic uterus.  Bitch was given an emergency spey and it was touch and go for a while.

They have been lucky, the bitch survived.   Not even going to think about the costs involved ;)

This person is an experienced breeder, retired, and is with the dogs 24/7

I would also add to those who are advising against breeding from your bitch. I am involved in the breed in a small way - my dogs all work, beating and picking up, and my youngest bitch is an OFTW and is running in the Cocker Championships next week. As well as being a proven, well bred, true to type example of her breed she's health tested (including hip score) which unfortunately makes her a rarity amongst successful field trialling Cockers.  

There are literally thousands of working Cocker litters being produced every year, and unfortunately a huge proportion of these are 'pet bred' from dogs of unproven type and indifferent quality. You'd be hard pushed to find a dog that doesn't have a lot of FTCh in its pedigree but it doesn't mean much if the dog itself is unproven. My winning bitch's sire is a Championship winner but there are barely any FTCh at all on the dam's side of her pedigree, however the strong, old, 'typey' working lines that are there were one of the main reasons why I chose her.

These pet litters contribute little (if anything) to the breed and a lot to the rescue situation, more and more young working Cockers are ending up in rescue as they are sold as 'family pets' and then the owners cannot meet their needs; I've fostered and found new homes for a few myself. Your bitch is unproven as a working dog and her temperament does not sound typical, they should be bold, confident, friendly, busy little dogs. You don't even want to keep a puppy yourself so really you're just producing more puppies in an already overcrowded market just for the sake of it.

Until recently I lived in Scotland and there is no shortage of working Cockers being bred up there. They are very far from a rare breed and we are far from the situation where any one dog's genes are essential; if you bought your bitch locally to where you live then I can probably guess a lot of what's in her pedigree :-)  There are a few truly old, rare lines in working Cockers now which are worth preserving but the vast majority are replicated again and again and there are no lines that are going to die out if someone doesn't breed from their pet dog.

A friend has just taken on a working cocker rescue - 10 months old.  Apparently she was sired by a top field trial champion (sorry I dont recall the name) and is absolutely gorgeous.  For whatever reason she was with hearing dogs for the deaf but they have found her to 'lively' so she's gone into rescue.  She's stunning and very enthusiastic - hopefully she's going to do some gun work and also agility so now in a suitable home.  Why a pup which probably should have been sold to a working home for quite a lot of money went to hearing dogs for the deaf I can only imagine it's because they couldn't find buyers for the whole litter. It's a cautionary tail as pups can be difficult to sell and then when you think you've got them somewhere they're put into rescue.  They didn't send her back to the breeder for whatever reason.

Working cockers, what an excellent post from someone in the know.

So many would be breeders accuse those who try to put people off breeding of elitism, snobbery, trying to hog the market etc etc.

PPD, my apologies, I am glad you are at least considering the replies you would be surprised how often we are asked and reply, as here, with the hindsight of experience but are then ignored but the OP and jumped on by others for doing what we were asked to do. We only have the pups, bitch and owners interest at heart.

I would advise you to do as much research as possible and speak to breeders i would also advise you to ignore all of these people who say don't do it as they were inexperienced before they started breeding themselves ,they are great at telling you that there is enough strays needing homes but why are they breeding themselves and not taking in the strays iv been breeding for six years now and I keep in contact with every owner of all of my babies.

i would also advise you to ignore all of these people who say don't do it as they were inexperienced before they started breeding themselves

Being inexperienced in BREEDING and being inexperienced in DOGS are two entirely different things. Before I bred my first litter of pups I had worked as a vet nurse, as a dog groomer and as a kennel maid, I had been keeping dogs for 21 years, been showing for 18 years, and had a mentor in the breed with decades experience who was only to happy to be available for advice 24/7. Plus I had 22 years experience of breeding other animals. These days so many people buy a bitch as their first ever dog and then all of a sudden decide to breed a litter!

Goldmali, I wish there was a LIKE button on here :)

Thank you Sawheaties. :)

Excellent post Goldmali.

Well written Goldmail it is surprising how many people seem to think that all you need to breed is a bitch, somehow the years and years of experience in dogs that a good breeder considers necessary and has acquired does not enter their heads.

I can't believe you are telling her to ignore the advice given by experienced breeders as well as those with knowledge of the breed.

Maybe in your country breeding willy nilly is acceptable but here breeding from a pet not recommended, some breeds are produced in large numbers and there are a limited number of ideal homes for such breeds.

If my breed was produced in huge numbers I would not have got into breeding them,annually there is usually less than 100 placed in rescue across all 6 varieties, the commonest reason being the death or ill health of their owners, there is a long waiting list, I put my Mums name down in 2002 and never been contacted.

I wouldn't know if my country breeds willy nilly I sure don't and I also was a kennel maid and a groomer and had studied canine behaviour and anatomy i also had a very good teacher who had been breeding years I learned from her and it was years before I even bred myself I didn't go into it lightly what I am trying to say is that with all of my experience before I started breeding I also asked for advice from breeders and reaserched different breeds and all I got was the same reception from breeders saying I shouldn't do this well who are people to judge that I or anyone else shouldn't do this as long as its done by people with experience with dogs and breeding and were the annual breeding bit came from I'm not sure but who breeds annually And breeding from a pet is not recommended well my dogs are top quality show standard and I still class them as my pets there my babies I don't have breeding dogs called machines or anything else for that matter I see them as my family members what else would they be stock or something

> And breeding from a pet is not recommended

breeding from a dog that is solely a pet is not advised by people who are not involved deeply in their breed, so that they have the necessary knowledge and experience, people such as the poster who obviously does not even realise that her working version of her breed is sadly being bred more an more by people without the required experience and contacts in the working world which is where they are best suited to be homed, resulting in an upsurge of pet homed dogs ending up in rescue when they become too much for their more sedate owners.

As you have found you need to become deeply involved and gain knowledge before you will be welcomed with open arms into an area of canine experiences that can impact not only in the puppies produced, their new owner, but possible be detrimental to the health and well being of the breed.

Breeding has far too many consequences to be done casually or worse without due care (as with purely commercially minded breeding) beyond the sale of puppies.

When I became involved in my breed 20 years ago I was welcomed with open arms as a pet owner and once I had become more deeply involved and been studying and gaining knowledge as a breeder.  In my turn I have helped and advised/guided others.

No one can breed responsibly in isolation from the breed as a whole, as the original poster admitted, not being involved with working her dogs, gundogs in general etc. 

How can they make educated breeding decisions with so little insight, how do they advise and vet potential new owners knowing so little about how their breed (not just their bitch) ticks?  Lovely pet as she is they already admit her temperament is not absolutely typical and sound, which for someone breeding pets should be most crucial over and above proving her working strains workability.

Well said brainless I agree with everything you say but some people are just to quick to judge others as I were once judged before I started, but everyone has to start somewhere and if those people considering breeding can get good advice and information rather than negative comments then they deserve that at least