Right will try to clear up issues. Of course she's not a merle!!! Absolutely not!!! Cooorrr blimey never!! She has light eyes which personally I love in her colouring. Her colour could be classed as chocolate but it's much deeper which is why I refer to her as red. Maybe auburn is better? She's got fab nature, pushy just enough, bossy just enough but never to extremes. It's not the paler sable colouring which is lovely but I like my deep red girl.

She has canen in her Sag Pip and Bobby red socks( off the top of my head pedigree in other room) I am not keen on Canen dogs as handling needs very experienced owners, although on the other hand it's experienced handlers I will choose not novices. I prefer ISDS dogs as to me they move better and are generally rangy dogs which I like personally.

Don't think there is anything wrong is picking a dog for it's colour if it's what you want. I wanted a red girlie and the time was right, I would love a red merle boy myself but will have to wait till we have moved as we'll need more space.

I've forgotten the other bits just now. Of course all dogs will need to be health tested as mine is eyes hips DNA tests preferred for CEA etc

It's called various things, but as the new 'Australian' colour is now referred to as 'red' in the UK the tendency is to call 'our red' 'brown' whatever the variation.  So your girl is technically a 'brown' and white?? collie (unless she's a tri).  The suggestion that she may be a merle was a bit of a red (or is that brown?) herring, but a question that had to be asked, no need to look for a merle stud if you've a merle bitch :-)

I asked the question when I was registering my first litter - " What is the difference between Red, Chocolate and Brown, and how do I know what I have" I was told that it depends entirely on the mood of the breeder  when they fill in the forms, that all are equally acceptable for all shades of red/brown. The exception is Australian Red. I suppose it might become more commonplace to register others as Chocolate or Brown and leave Red for that colour

> but as the new 'Australian' colour is now referred to as 'red' in the UK the tendency is to call 'our red' 'brown' whatever the variation

It must be very confusing!
Speaking as someone who 'does' colour genetics, the original 'red' is in fact a bb gene liver/chocolate gene - on a par with choc labs/liver GSPs/brown Newfoundlands.

The Aussie 'red' is a clear ee gene red, often also called yellow, especially by geneticists. And yes I have seen a BC of this colour and immediately knew it was ee. It is the same gene as yellow labs, GRets and so on, and can vary widely with regard to shade from fox red to pale cream. In some other species this colour is called Red or Orange, or Cream. And just to complicate things, Liver in Welsh Springer Spaniels is actually not a chocolate or brown at all, it is a very deep ee red.

The brown shades are most often called Chocolate, even though some of them present a very reddish foxy-red shade of brown. A separate lighter shade in cats - very bright and coppery,but still related to basic Chocolate - is known as Cinnamon. It is genetically different to chocolate but still on the same locus, i.e. a genetic sibling.

I guess Liver is rather an old-fashioned term for chocolate coloured animals... and I feel Brown is a bit ambiguous.... So many lay persons also call any shade of fawn or red or sable "brown" as well. If the BC clubs don't like "liver" would they accept "chocolate"? There really aren't many other ways to describe that colour!

Mahogany?? lol

Well it's always been 'red' here, but it now more 'brown' with a sprinkling of 'chocolate' - but that doesn't describe most of them at all :-( but the Americans have called Australian Red - 'gold' so we're confused forever :-)

Arrgggh the plot thickens.
So what do the Aussies call them? presumably what we call Aussie Red is just red. What do they call our brown/red/chocolate colour?

Aussies of this colour are "red"

Think the question was for Australian people rather than Australian Shepherds ;-)

lol... well they used to callit brown/red/chocolate!  Until they got the ee 'red'... any Aussies on here????

lol.. we're talking border collies here rather than the American breed called (confusingly) Australian Shepherd :-)

Where's the embarrassed smilie :)

My fault for not phrasing it properly and using abbreviations :(

I was wondering what Australian people called the different colours of red/brown/chocolate :)

> I was wondering what Australian people called the different colours of red/brown/chocolate

Australians being well known for being down to earth and prosaic, I guess they call it brown or chocolate or liver!

I don't like "Gold" but Golden isn't so bad... at least it does put it on the right footing as being the same gene responsible for GRs and Labs, but seeing as it is a very variable gene which naturally ranges from cream to fox red, that could be awkward ;)

Marianne may agree with me here - the Cream in show hamsters (same gene ee, and named as such many years ago when it really was Cream) is now not cream by any stretch of the imagination - Peach, Apricot or even light Orange is more descriptive.

If Australian Gold is diluted by blue then we will also have a genetic Cream...

If Australian Gold is diluted by blue then we will also have a genetic Cream...

How disappointing, I hoped that mixing gold with blue might have given green - it would with paint :)

> How disappointing, I hoped that mixing gold with blue might have given green - it would with paint :-)

Wow - green dogs sound fab to me :)

EDIT: being serious for a moment, if you combined blue dilution with ee and maybe liver/choc as well, you could get "White" BCs like White GSDS. I will have to look into this further, but they could mask merle, as well as being undesirable because of the white markings - they could easily be deaf too, if the ground colour is so pale as to hide the extent of white pattern.

Aussie Red does hide merle and dilute I believe so there are no 'blue' or merle ee dogs on outward examination

>I will have to look into this further, but they could mask merle, as well as being undesirable because of the white markings - they could easily be deaf too, if the ground colour is so pale as to hide the extent of white pattern.

My second Border Collie was a white dog.  He was out of working lines, not show lines.  I was lucky, as he had dark brown eyes and no hearing problems at all.  He was definitely merle bred.  He could never have mated a merle bitch.  He just didn't look merle.

You can get white collies which aren't merle, but a very white dog shouldn't be used to breed anyway as it's not desirable in the breed and you can have problems associated with it, although you were lucky with your dog.  Of course the merle wont show up on white nor the tan/sable colouring so if interested you could these days have a DNA test to see if it is merle - but it should be out of interest rather than as part of a breeding plan :-)

> Aussie Red does hide merle and dilute I believe so there are no 'blue' or merle ee dogs on outward examination

It will certainly mask merle, but ee can be combined with blue [dd] to give a diluted red (i.e. cream), and can also be combined with liver/choc [dd]. If both were present as well as ee [bbddee], you would have a very pale toned cream, possibly almost white as it would be lilac-based.

>but a very white dog shouldn't be used to breed anyway

It was never my intention to use him for breeding.  Although I wouldn't have him castrated, as there was no medical reason to.  He never mated a bitch, and was never given the opportunity. 

His colouring wasn't of any importance to me, as he had the temperament and working ability that I was looking for.

However, he did think that I was perfect.  :-) 

I never wanted a second opinion!  :-)

Hmmmmm...maybe maghony is better!! She shold next to a chocolate lab the other day and there is definitely a difference in colour. She's not a chocolate or liver colour,deinitely auburn.....I've decided!! If it's breeders mood that makes the choice...she's auburn!!

Did the sheep move for the white collie? Some farmers think red dogs don't get the sheep moving, they believe the sheep think the dog a fox. Which confuses me as a fox would kill a lamb so why would the sheep not move? I think more likely just not a dog with strong eye? Anyone else got experince of it though? Just wondering if the sheep knew it was a dog or not?

A nice,ahem, red dog would do, doesn't have to be a merle first time. I did find a red but breeder hasn't done hips so am put off although his temperament was fab. To be honest the breeders set up put me off fullstop. Full of dogs all barking, all looked like behaviours issues on legs especially some of the dogs. Was kinda glad they were in kennels as I reckon we wold have been nipped for sure. Accredited breeder too!!

>Did the sheep move for the white collie?

Yes they did.  To be fair, I never even questioned that they would!  However much folk dislike a white dog, I adored my Mick.  He was perfection. 

When I lost him, I just could not have another BC.  The pain was too raw.  I actually had 2 Bearded Collies before getting my red boy.  I am glad that they looked nothing alike. 

Not Australian, but do live here - the ANKC register collies as choc & white, red & white and tan & white (as well as the other accepted colours).

Marianne may agree with me here - the Cream in show hamsters (same gene ee, and named as such many years ago when it really was Cream) is now not cream by any stretch of the imagination - Peach, Apricot or even light Orange is more descriptive.

Ony just seen this. It used to be that certain parts of the country wanted a pale cream and other parts a darker cream. I always preferred the darker ones myself. In cats of course Cream has to be pale.

Going back to dogs -I find it VERY frustrating that the KC will insist on registering colours that DO NOT EXIST (yes I am shouting!!) and aren't mentioned in the breed standard either. I will never understand why. When I queried why on earth "Red Grey Sable" was an alternative for Malinois, and why not simply only allow what it says in the breed standards, they just answered they had to give people a choice in the drop down menu and if enough people had registered pups as such a colour in the past it would be kept. Yes I know I've said it before -would they accept green if enough people had registered that in the past....... Being used to cats where you CANNOT register a colour that isn't genetically possible from the parents (let alone one that doesn't exist) I find it very strange that the KC that in so many instances are lightyears ahead of other animal fancies haven't got to grips with this. They have made it clear that Cavaliers can only be registered as the four colours that the breed standard mentions, yet I am certain that plenty of back yard breeders won't know what a Blenheim is (maybe not a Ruby either) and won't put that. I remember my first cavalier's Vaccination card where the vet had put "King Charles Spaniel" as breed and "Tan/white" as colour... I don't for a moment believe nobody has ever tried to register them as anything else but what the breed standard says, so why not do the same for all breeds and only allow what IS mention in the standard?? (At least for breeds that can only have certain colours.)

Of course that's a problem in border collies where the breed standard states that 'various colours are permisible, but white should never predominate'.  However I do understand and support what you're saying.  Not sure whether they do now but ISDS didn't register any dilute colours - they just had to be registered as their base colour I imagine so no wonder dilute pops up when not particularly expected!

> they just had to be registered as their base colour I imagine so no wonder dilute pops up when not particularly expected!

This is why I would say non standard colours should be allowed on registration.  The show ring will sort out what is and isn't acceptable but the colour is a fact and that is what the registration should indicate.  No one may wish to breed from that dog but the information is there when looking at siblings etc.

I wish that colours were standardised across all breeds. I agree that the actual colour of the dog should be registered, even if not a recognised colour. Perhaps colour charts on the KC website to help with registering pups - what some might call a blue fawn brindle others would call a gold or cream brindle and some people will make up their own names such as my tongue in cheek description of Milly as butterscotch brindle :-) The many different shades of red collies would in borzois be called cream, gold, red or mahogany.

See I was right!! Mahogany!!She's definitely more red than brown.

But still looking at the mo. Will be completing all health checks in new year for hopefully next September time. I'm based in Manchester for the time being willing to travel for the right dog, but again hopefully will not be in Manchester by September next year!!

Fingers crossed everywhere!!

They may be 'different shades' but they're all the same gene! So should be called the same thing - mostly on the KC colour chart it may be 'red' but it's confusing having two 'reds' with different genes - the red/brown amendment to the black pigmented coat and the 'true red', 'Australian red' or 'Gold' that is becoming more 'popular' in UK.  Pick either red - or brown to be more specific, but please don't try and put in 'mahogany' - that's certainly not a pigment in UK collies!

I was teasing!! She's a red head end of!!

Would they have to be a specific shade to be 'Titian' lol

We're gonna have to make some swatch cards for this!!