hallo,everybody.  Ive just done a short training session in the kitchen with each of my dogs in turn. It occurred to me that my Gwen just does not enjoy it like the others do. Ive had problems with her motivation from the start, really. Shes not thick, she learnt all the puppy things as fast as the other two did, but its the way she does things! - never looks happy, (incidently ive always used kind ways, never needed to be particularly firm, as shes so good, so i dont think ive frightened her - i never even raise my voice, no need) she enjoys the treats, but as soon as it becomes clear why ive called her, the head goes down and she looks worried, she does everything i ask, but slowly, and her sit, when i leave her as in a recall, is more of a slump, or cower!  My dogs are lovely companions, im not into competing, but i do enjoy teaching them new things - but only if they enjoy it too!  Shes never really enjoyed classes either, from a pup (shes 13months by the way) she d sleep her way through the class, having to be woken for each exercise!  No problem with the other two!
    So - do i give up with Gwen? my trainer would say "make her do it!" - but why? shes a good girl, comes when i call her when were out, lovely with kids, just a bucket of fun normally. I can get my "training fix" with the other two, who do enjoy it. But would it be unfair? or is carrying on unfair?
     Any thoughts very welcome!

Would give her at least 6 months break and then start again but somewhere else and keep it short try a game as a reward sometimes you need to make it fun and if you can't then perhaps you should give up.

Once a dog reaches your requirements as far as control is concerned then stop, nothing to do with anyone else I sometimes think people would think my mob totally untrained but they suit me and are in fact obedient within my requirements.

Try a toy she only gets at training time instead?

Have you tried changing your approach a bit?

My Opi can be a bit like Gwen if I'm not careful in my approach with her; she gets worried that she's going to get it wrong and get in trouble, so our sessions are very, very short - 5 minutes at most these days - and always start with something she knows, enjoys performing and is confident about doing.  So we do her favourite 3 tricks a few times to start; then her less favoured; then we work on something properly, for maybe 30 seconds out of the whole session.  She's better if we're working on a trick rather than anything formal, she knows the difference between fun and something with an aim in mind, if that makes sense.

If Gwen really doesn't enjoy it though, and as you say she is happy enough and well trained otherwise so does it really matter?  I would love to do agility with Opi but I learned very quickly that she just doesn't enjoy it so we don't do it.  Likewise Saffi doesn't get trained - with her it's more because it's utterly pointless (she just doesn't learn anything - in 18 months I've not managed any more than a very slow 'down', and then only if I'm kneeling in front of her), but she doesn't suffer for not doing it, she's quite happy just wiggling around the place in her happy way.

As for your trainer - he/she is out of date and frankly, not the sort of trainer I'd want to be working with.  There is no reason at all to 'make' any dog do it if they don't want to, especially in just a fun training session - that's a brilliant way to ruin the trust in the relationship you have with them (and as I've mentioned before, that approach is why Raine is with me after she started biting, having been forced to do things she was unsure about).

Are the other dogs there with you at the time you are doing the training?  My Poppy gets OTT if the others are around and then gets so hyper she runs off and torments them.

i agree with you that its wrong to make a dog do something its not happy with,nikita,my trainer is basically good,and dogs do well in her class,i think shes a bit more like that with me,rather than the others because she thinks im a bit weak where dog training is concerned(she once told me it was a democracy in my house,me and the dogs on an equal footing,well,yes!),also she knows me quite well so thinks she can get away with it!I dont always take notice,especially with her dominence theories,rightly or wrongly!By the way,your dogs sound lovely!

I usually train them separately,or nothing useful gets done!good point,though!

Granny Pepsi gave up on working for a living a long time ago...she is happy being a slouch and at her age she can do whatever she likes ! Merlot hates to do any training and is fine for my requirements, she won't play either...just canot see the point and preferres to spend her time snoozing or following me around the house, it's her choice, if I try to engage her in a game she looks at me like I am nuts!! She loves her walks and her food and is a contented girlie, she is always up for a ride in the car as well. The pup is still a work in progress !!! we do some formal training standing for examination, recalls, stay's etc.. just to keep on top of her exhuberance but after she passed her silver GCA I have not pushed her for anything more formal as I am not interested in any competative training these days. At 16 months she is still learning the ropes of how our houshold works. She is a good girl and apart from needing to calm down and not be so manic :-D she is doing OK for me.
I would say that if a dog does not get enjoyment out of traing then as long as it is within the boundaries of the level of obedience you are happy with then do'nt push.
Aileen

Certainly give her a break from it. And as you say, if the others are happy to learn stuff, and your other girl is obedient enough for her day to day life, it's probably not worth trying to do more with her if she doesn't enjoy it. I gave up doing anything much with my Yankee because it was so much more fun training Ellie who actually enjoyed pleasing me and learning new tricks.

Thankyou,I think i will give her a rest from it for a while,at least She is still a baby really,and might realise what she is missing,but I wont hold my breath!Honestly,you should see the expression on her face when I suggest she might like to do a stay or a recall,you d think she was regularly beaten!poor mite!

Try changing the way you train all together and turn it in to a you and me time - take her for a walk, ask for a sit stay, count to three and rush off calling her for a rough and tumble. Very very slowly increase the time and the amount you walk away before breaking the exercise, never rush the training steps you need for a while to stop training and start teaching fun.

I used to do obedience training with H but after 3 years he lost all his enthusiasm. He would do everything I asked him to do but it was always half heartedly done. I decided to stop the classes and just do odd bits at home. Then I started a fun agility class and now I am hooked and we both love it and compete throughout the season. I think some dogs just don't enjoy certain things and it's very apparent from their demeanour when engaging in one of those activities -  some dogs just don't like the show ring and others don't enjoy obedience, agility, flyball etc.

If she is quite happy just doing everything else that you do I wouldn't worry - just enjoy the things she likes :-)

Ive failed miserably at trying to make it fun,nova!I know thats what she needs,but shes just impossible to gee up,at least for me,and the more i try,leaping around like a crazy woman,dragging various toys around,the more she tries to hide under me,in fact,she goes into meltdown as soon as she suspects im about to "start!"Ive tried running off,uttering encouraging noises,turn round and shes looking,huge eyed,at a distance!Ive even got down and done play bows,.Its like anything formal scares her,although she usually gradually improves-she will now open her mouth for a toy when asked to "hold"before it was clamped teeth!but i just dont think shes happy,its all a bit grudging,if thats the word.I ll try a break for a while,like i say,shes no bother!

Just a thought or I didnt read properly. Is gwen the same regardless of if you are on your own with her in or out the house or at training classes.?
If she is the same in all situations I would give it all a miss have fun with her doing whatever you both enjoy even if its just going for a stroll for exercise and socialisation and trin the two that are enjoy themselves with formal training I guess its like us not all of us are into the same things :)  
ps you havnt failed you have an obedient dog for everyday living and thats avery good start and at least yours come back when called lol

Sorry to ask, sort of feel I should know from other posts, but ... what breed is Gwen?

Are you sure it's Gwen that's unresponsive? Could it be the way you're trying to motivate her? Wont expand on that til you answer the first question :-)

You have not failed she is just not enjoying the training or the play, not your fault. Is she a collie? I have met collies like this their pleasure in life seems to come from looking fed up and staring into corners, don't know why but they seem content in their self inflicted gloom.

Don't feel bad about Gwen, my Daisy is the same, as soon as she thinks she's being trained she bogs off, so just to keep her reminded of what she knows I do one thing every now and then and that seems to be enough for her. She's very bright and very sensitive, has never been reprimanded and all training has been positive, hands off, reward based, but it's just not her bag, and that's fine . She comes when I ask her, sits, stays and her party trick of walking backwards, that's enough for me.

yes,shes a collie!i did wonder about that myself as all my attempts and my trainers suggestions(slap her sides,gee her up,gee yourself up!)(to elaborate she only told me that once everything i tried had failed to get her to play)and what worked for the others who are quite happy to play,just doesnt work,she gives in at the first sign of "jollity"!Training wise she is the same at class or at home or on the field,play wise she will play tug a bit just with me at home or field,not at all at class,and loves to play with the other two,either on her own with them or in a 4way tuggy session with me.

have you tried clicker training with her. One of my girls sounds very like Gwen. I don't do any "proper" training with her now but we do teach tricks with the clicker and she loves that.

I've never come across a collie that doesn't like to train or work, certainly never come across one that looks fed up staring into a corner :-O Well, not unless there's a good reason for it!! But collies are all different & obviously what makes them want to work varies too.

Collies are very, very bright, as you know. They know if you are trying to 'gee' them up but if the emotion isn't there from you they also know that too.

I've got a girly who the instant I used to try to gee her up with an excitable voice, etc, she just looked at me and walked away. She knew I was being false (I don't use an excitable voice in every day life with my dogs). The trainers I started out with had me talking quite loudly to my dog (I never understand this concept of talking loudly - in an excitable voice - to your dog that is right next to you and has the most amazing hearing) & in a sing songy tone (so unatural for me), becuase I found it a strain, my girly just switched off. She must have wondered what on earth I was up to. We both ended up hating our training. We ditched our trainers, took a complete break and returned to training with someone who worked with me, allowing me to use my voice in my manner, ie, very quietly talking to my dogs. My collies respond to quite, yes they'll respond to excitable too, but that's not when they give me the best work 'cause they're then excitable and not concentrating! But I can gee up my dogs in a quiet manner, and I don't have to sound like a loony on drugs for them to work for me!

Think about what she likes ... be it food, toys, or doing. Make a list. Prioritise what she likes - for my girly a ball has highest priority over a bit of sausage, but a leaf with a very quiet "swish" sound from me as I pick it up off the floor is the highest motivator of all :-D

If she'll play tug then that may be the thing that you need to make a really high priority item. Her absolute reward. There are ways you can increase the value of tug - the main one keeping the tug toy as your special toy that she's allowed to play with when you let her. There's a good dvd by Jo Hill, Motiviation Movie. Basically about motivation - includes a good section on how to get dogs who don't necessarily have a high toy/play drive to start with to work for a tug toy.

Also a good article on Susan Garrett's website about how to make a motivational toy
http://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm

You can ignore the 'goofy acting' she refers to if it's more difficult for you, but the rest of the article about how to make a toy highly motivational is achievable for all.

If it were me, I would ditch formal training for now and start working on trying to get her interested & motivated, specially on a tug toy as she's partly there. If she's switched off in the class environment, you're not going to switch her back on in that environment, better to work on that at home and then take it beyond the home. Once she's playing tug, let her 'win' it occasionally to build up her confidence. If you can work with 2 identical toys that's better as once she's 'won' the toy you can show her the other one & regain her interest without the formality of asking her to give up her toy.

You can add some training into it once she's keen to play, but I'd only ask her to do things that you know she can and will do, a simple sit - then reward with the game (once she's onto the toy, or food, whichever you make the high value item).

We all have different ideas about how to train our dogs and it's a case of you working out what suits you, and especially what suits you and your particular dog situation - with a number of dogs you know that what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Some will back off at the slightest bit of pressure - and it might not seem like pressure to you. I was told a few years ago, smile when you start your training session - if the smile isn't genuine then postpone the training to when it is :-D She'll know when you're faking it!!

Good luck whatever you decide to try with her, but whatever you try you may need to stick at it for some considerable time, months.

Just to add, when I ditched my original trainer with the girly I mention above, we started self-teaching (obedience training I'm talking about) & used a clicker. She absolutely loved this. As lilyowen mentions, might be worth considering if you don't already use a clicker with her - if you don't clicker train you need to get your head around the concept before starting with her though.

Ooops, sorry. Just re-read your post - it sounds as though you're getting a bit stressed by the situation, this will most definitely come across to her, you wont hide it. You haven't failed in the slightest, you may not just have found the right solution for Gwen yet. There will be one, but it may just take you a while to figure it out. If she genuinely doesn't have the drive to want to train/work then that's something you will have to accept, but I'd stick with it for now, specially if she's very sensitive. The best thing may just to be completely remove all pressure from her for a few months and do nowt that she doesn't want to do.

trialist so pleased to read about the voice thingy. I tend to talk quietly to mine when they are near by and also being somneone who naturally talks with my hands seem to use hand signals automatically. Th times I have been told to talk in a loud sing songy voice or if needing to say no make it a really low gruff noise until I get a headache trying. I also dont do the false gee yourself up bit either very well
Some great reassuring ideas there for all thank you

I was looking forward to your reply,Trialist,and i havent been disapointed-could you please come and live in my wardrobe like that bank manager on the tv ads years ago?So i can let you out when i need advice?!  Yes I was getting a bit stressed! One of the reasons I thought about stopping,with her,to give us both a break! My trainer seems to think if only I could get her wound up enough,that she ll play(mind you,she may be backing down a bit because we are now trying to build a tuggy game in class by starting to teach "hold"as the first step!)even though to me,its obvious she wont,by her demeanor, if I say as much,I get "well of course she wont if you tell yourself she wont!"
Ive never done any clicker training,I know people swear by it,but somehow ive always thought id get myself in knots if Ive got to hold a clicker,as well as treats,lead etc,so Ive tended to use the word "yes!"to mark the right behaviour.
Thankyou very much for your help!and im going to look at that link now!

I think you need a new trainer and a new approach.

I had terrible trouble with a trainer once when trying a new dog out at sheep. He belittled me infront of others, complained if my dog barked like other dogs(namely his wife's) I persisted and persisted. In the end I took my hubbie with me as I thought I was being paranoid and he saw it straight away.

The result was a depressed dog and owner. I felt there was a huge brick wall between me and my dog, I felt my dog didn't even like me. I can remember crying in my liviing room thinking my dog hated me and resented me and training as I saw the change in him when we arrived to train,he became unbearable tobe around. Really it washis way of showing stress. So I stopped going for a while, worked on a "normal" less pressured bond, took me about 8months, then went back to group to do heelwork to music instead. He was still a nightmare to begin with but settled eventually and I stopped there.

He's amazing 1-2-1 but doesn't like group so I accepted it and use my others instead. He just doesn't like group, so I stopped with him. Not all training works for all dogs. Stop and rethink who is this for and what is it for? I was so disappointed when I realised Todd just couldn't cope with it but 1-2-1 he's astounding but ittookmeages to depressure it between us, take a stepback review it and realise what I was really worriedabout was a healthly pet dog.  And I'm a trainer!! Took another understanding trainer to gently guide me through it. She never said anything outright, just showed me the way. Very clever And I saw lots of people with my boy and very few helped or even understood him.

PS

It was clicker training that did it!! He now goes mad when he see's a clicker he adores it!! Totally motivates him although histrouble is being too quick!! Ask for paw and he a back flip nearly,combined with walking back and turning his head left and right!!

I'm hoping to take him back to sheep when we've moved but I'll do it my way this time and I'll not be aiming so high, the aim will be to keep him happy. But we'll see...

thankyou for your reply happyhound girl,im glad you worked through it with your dog.Im only in it for fun,im honestly not a bit competitive,although i have to admit i get a glow when my dog gets it right!or see Jess bouncing about happy and confident and enjoying what shes doing!I want that for Gwen too,I will try a different approach,or give up if I have to.I seem to remember she enjoyed it when i gave her a couple of goes at the small jumps and tunnel at agility when there with Jess,maybe that will be her thing,once she s fully fit again,i ll do more.
Quite a few people have suggested i find a new trainer!I dont do anything im not comfortable with,though,i think you know your own dog best,-she accused me of fighting her once!Also said dogs basically follow the same doggy behaviour therefore the same way works for all(-maybe she didnt put it exactly like that),when we had a disagreement over whether gwen was sullen(her)or worried(me).But she knows loads more than i do,and works wonders on some of the dogs in class.If I was really worried about her methods I would stop,but shes always on courses learning new stuff,pretty committed.Its just the odd thing.And I think shes harder on me than most because shes known me years!mostly I take it in good part!Good luck with the sheep!