Please could someone give me some constructive comments regarding buying a puppy from a litter produced by a mother/son mating. I do not want to show the puppy it will be purely for a pet. Does anyone know, am I likely to encounter any problems either with temperament or health. The parents have had VWd test and are OK but no hips or eyes, which I understand is not a real problem with Dobes. I have owned Dobes for some 16 years, as pets only, so am experienced with the breed. I don't want to start a huge debate about personal opinions and the rights and wrongs of this practice, as I understand why it is done, as I said I'm only wanting a pet, not a champion, and I merely want to establish if a pup is likely to be OK as a pet.

Hi Jaffa
I don't really know much about in-breeding or line breeding but I know close mateings do go on ,my Dobe has a mother /son mating a couple of steps back in his pedigree,he is purely a pet not a show dog .Could you ask the breeder why they have bred this way ? or would that put them 'offside' .There are Dobe breeders on this site who may know the litter in question and answer privately.
HTH
liz

Your best bet would be to talk to Christine (Kerioak) as she's very knowledgable about Dobermann genetics and she'll give you good advice.

HTH,

Fiona
x x x

<<but no hips or eyes, which I understand is not a real problem with Dobes>>

If only a few dogs are tested then there problem in the breed is not known and symptoms could well be put down to other things. For instance, in Finland where most if not all Dobes are tested for PHPV there is an incidence of around 20%. In the UK only a few dogs are tested instead of complete litters so the incidence is not known but it DOES occur.

Christine

Such close in-breeding will not necessarily bring out problems that aren't already there - although it can reduce size if such practice is regularly used, amongst other problems - but it will give a much higher likelihood of genetic problems that are in the line occurring.

IF I knew the lines well and had a good idea of what was likely to occur (including the vital issue of temperament), I wouldn't object to this mating in itself, but would take parents on merit. Obviously, don't know the details behind this particularly case but from a breeder who doesn't practice hip scoring etc. to tell you what IS in the line, personally I wouldn't take the chance - but that's just my opinion, folks.

Marina

Thanks for the replies. I just wondered if there was anything, not necessarily problematic, that I should be aware of. I think if there was anything seriously wrong with this practice then it would be outlawed, but I can appreciate some breeders may not agree with it, but as I had never heard of if before thought I would just ask a few opinions before I buy the pup. I definitely will not be breeding from this pup. I do not have any worries about the breeder, having spoken to a few people, just wondered if I should be made aware of anything.

just out of interest -
in say a 5 generation pedigree How many close matings would be 'acceptable ' ?
or in 10 generations presuming there are no health issues
just curious now :)
Liz

Hi Liz

I would be quite happy with a father/daughter, mother/son or half sibling mating providing that there were no similar matings in the previous few generations and that it had been done for a specific purpose

Uncle/niece and cousins are very common matings and you will often see the same dogs on both sides of a pedigree. It is not easy to find a five generation pedigree, certainly in our breed, where the same dogs do not crop up more than once.

Christine

Thankyou :)
Liz

Hi.
I have seen many instances of very close breeding resulting in severe abnormalities, no growth, rotten teeth, malformation in bones etc.... personally I think such close breeding is totally unessesary, and I would avoid it.
Dawn.

Me too, personally I would find a puppy from another litter. There is no knowing what this mating will produce, even though the parents may look fine and healthy, if there is a recessive genetic problem in their line, ( and there usually issomething somewhere, even in the best of kennels/bloodlines of any breed) some or all of the puppies are almost bound to be affected. Although the puppies may be ok, there is a good chance there will be something wrong with some of them imo. I expect this litter is the result of an "accident". Few breeders would do a mating this close on purpose.

I would 1stly be asking why???? Was it a carefully planned line breeding or an unfortunate accident!!!
Look at the rest of the pedigree....is it all out bred or are there lots of close/line bred litters. Have to say that dobes are hardly a rare breed so if you only want a pet quality one then there are bound to be a few litters from responsible folk, without having to wait too long.

Hi Jaffa,
Since you are wanting the pup as a companion only, I would be more concerned with the lack of hip and eye testing than the breeding.
Inbreeding is an important tool for knowledgeable breeders. If there were defective characters in the line, I would think they would be blatantly apparant in at least some of the puppies. So if the litter looks sound and healthy, the breeding was probably well done.
On the other hand, IF eye and hip testing IS the norm in Dobes(I don't know), then this breeding was very ill-advised.
Your concern is that your particular pup is healthy and sound. If you cannot have this confirmed by a vet and get a written health warranty from the breeder, I would look elsewhere.
TiaLee

Tialee, the trouble is that many of the hereditary problems that can affect puppies are often not able to be seen/screened for at such a young age and the pups may LOOK ok, but HD for example will not be apparent for several months. Just because they look sound and healthy now does not mean they will grow up to be. One takes a risk re: soundness, buying any puppy of any breed because of this and thats why its so important to buy a puppy that has the best possible chance of being sound. Although a mother/son mating may have been planned and both parents may appear sound, if there are any unsoundnesses in the line a mating like this is almost sure to bring any lurking problems to the surface.

Thanks everyone for your input into this. It's fair to say I still have some thinking to do before I commit myself. I shall ask more questions of the breeder and make a decision. I'll let you know the outcome.

Hi Westie Lover,
I know I did not make myself clear in the last post, because your point is exactly mine!(sort of)
What I am concerned with is not in-breeding, but lack of health tests. As with ANY breeding, if the parents are health tested, you have a better CHANCE of a healthy pup. In this case, IF the parents HAD BEEN tested, AND it was an inbreeding with no apparant defects manifesting, then I believe you would have an even BETTER chance of having a healthy puppy.
But, of course, since the health tests were NOT done, then the phenotype of the parent(s) and puppies is all you have to go on. Since it is a close inbreeding, it is much more likely that IF problems were present, they would show up in the phenotype of the pups more readily, so that the inbreeding would again be an advantage. I understand that things like CHD may not be symptomatic until later in life, but young pups can still be examined and tested for many other genetic problems and bad hip structure can even sometimes be seen on x-ray early on.
So, IF these pups seem healthy to a veterinarian (and depending on how much of an "exam" one is willing to get into), I would feel comfortable in guessing that their genotype is healthy as well.
I don't know if I can articulate this any better, so I hope my point is somewhat clear.
TiaLee

Way back in the dogs background you may see mother son breeding. This is sometimes due to the gene pool being so small. But You need to know the history on at least the last 3 generations of the dogs. Who had passed their OFA and Who didn't. Hips have been a problem for large dogs since the 80's. If the mother has hip displasia and you breed her to her son, you are doubleing all the defects that are in that gene pool. If you know your history on the male and female and know they have never had any problems, and all have great temperments, then you are also doubleing up on good things too. If the dog has no OFA number it could be that the dog failed, and they will tell you they never had the test done.

I have bred dogs for about 13 yrs now, firstly in partnership and then I inherited the lot. I was brought up in rescue kennels (not literally) so I think I can see both sides of the fence. Firstly, inbreeding will not create problems unless those problems lie latent in the parent stock. I have mated half brother and sister very confidently and had wonderful puppies. BUT I would not touch a dog like this whose parents have not been hip scored or eye tested no matter what the parentage was. Trust me, if God forbid you did have vet bills it is a lot of expense and heartache for you and dog. Find a breeder who cares enough to do breed specific tests, put yourself on their waiting list, and relax knowing that when you finally get the puppy of your choice, the odds are in your favour of many long happy healthy years ahead of both of you! Good Luck whatever you decide.

2 yrs ago i got myself a dobe from the other side of the country an i mated her with a local stud dog...great lookin dog he is but the owner (an old man) didnt have a generation pedigree for him...so we went ahead with the mating an registered the pups an wen i got my 5 generation pedigree the two dogs turned out to be cousins...now that perfectly ok in breeding..it is healthy to breed close but not too close like mother/son father/daughter brother/sister it keeps the breed true...but why is it that one of my offspring is massive an the other 2 are midgets,both parents are very large dobermann...in future il be makin sure i look for a generation pedigree!!!

"turned out to be cousins...now that perfectly ok in breeding..it is healthy to breed close"

Surely, only if you are an experienced breeder and know all the lines you are doubling up on intimately? Were the dam and sire of your litter von willebrands tested/hip scored etc?
What would you have done if you had discovered the sire of your litter was her brother or father? Just curious :-)

Admin did u not read the rest of that sentence...i knew they were not brother an sister as i knew both sets of parents but yes i did fail to check to see if they were related

Well I am sorry but I would want to know about a lot more than just the potential sire and Dams parents before mating them.

I would be comparing Uncle and Aunts, and seeing what the offspring of the doigs that appeared more than once in the potential pedigree wewre like, and did either of the potential pair share these faults.

A dobermann bitch should be at least two years old, and nearer 3 before being a mother, due to physiacal metal maturity, and the stamina to rear what are usually large litters.

To be contemplating from breeding from a one year old bitch later in the year, or from her mother who only now is old enough for a first litter is not ethical or sound breeding practice!

Unfortunately i disagree...the bitch who has already has pups was in perfect workin order to have pups an as for her daughter im not sure of a time to take a litter from her...vet told me suzy was fine for pups an i knew the owners...the last thing i expected was for them to be cousins...also i have done reseach on dobeys an discovered thru that an a well known breeder in ulster that it is indeed good to breed relatives as long as they arnt too close...3 generations back was the words used...cousins is fine an i in no way feel guilty now about doin it as i have it in writing that its ok...if it wasnt the kennel club wodnt have registered them.

Relatives three generations back is indeed fine - they would be your dog's great-grandparents, not its cousins!

Are you a member of any of the Doberman Breed Clubs?

Yes but as i have stated b4 she is my partners dog i only look advice not lectures...matin cousins obviously isnt a bad thing or they wodnt have got registered

It isn't the relationship that is wrong when mating close,it is the lack of knowledge of the faults and good points, health and temperament of the individuals involved that is wrong, in any breeding, but especially with a close one, where traits re likely to be intensified or fixed for good or ill!!!

Inbreeding in skilled hands is a valuable tool, as in this way we can check if there are any recesive problems, and then take remedial action in removing those individuals carrying these faults from the breeds gene pool.

Anyone who breeds not even knowing the pedigrees of the parent dogs, let alone about the dogs whose names are in that pedigree should not be breeding.

I would love to meet the vet that condones breeding from physicaly and mentally immature animals, and also Vets are no experts in Dog breeding having been trained in the diganosis and treating of disease.

The vets I have met are all too ready to advise that every puppy brought in for vacination is neitered, I can see the reason why if this is the experience they have of 'Dog Breeders'.

Also if your male is able to be let out by kids on the estate, how have you managed to keep your bitches from being let out when in season? This is not a safe or responsible way to keep, and breed what is a large sometimes dominant gurading breed in this day and age of anti dog feeling. This kind of thing is what gets all dog owners and breeders especially a bad name.

Sorry rant over, but this is a subject and breed (i have a lot of Doberman dogs as friends, and their people are pretty nice too), that I feel strongly about.

I have a pen for bitches in season that is where my dog is now...i knew both owners of the dogs the bitch came from an irish champ an the dog from a well known breeder in my area. He didnt know that a pup from a bitch in a town 30 miles away was originally mated with one of his former pups...il never know who my pups will be mated with...the old man who owed the dog didnt have a generation pedigree...just his registration form.

Brainless

I think that you should swap names with Linzilou because she obviously deserves your name more than you. I too have been reading the posts on the behaviour page and she hasn't got a clue.

Also admin id like to let u know that im not an experienced breeder...neither was my partner it was his first time an like they say u can only learn from ur mistakes!!!