Recurring problem  I have a 6 year old lab who is the most disciplined  dog , perfect recall , walks to heal, lovely with people and a real joy , the problem is she was attacked  by two dogs with she was just 3 mths old and ever since if any dog approaches her she shoots first and asks questions later . However if she see another dog she will come to heal without asking.

She never goes near other dogs other than her own group of friends she never attacks other dogs and as I say avoids them.

But our recurring problems is other dogs and their owners  who allow their dogs to bound up to my dog and then go ballistic when they get snapped at ( my dog never follows through but will roll the other dog ) I have been sworn at threatened with vets bill and all sorts for having an out of control aggressive dog .. Some dog's owners are fine and I always take the time to explain to those who will listen. 

So what advice can anyone give me on the correct advice on this happening when both  dogs off lead . she a healthy dog and needs off lead exercise .

Other people with loose dogs will assume that your loose dog is sociable.

I understand why she is behaving like that, but one day she will have a go at a dog that will not be happy with the OTT reaction from her , she may get herself in serious trouble.

As she has a great recall, couldn't you recall her when you see another dog approaching her? This way she still gets her freedom, but is kept away from causing confrontations.

Also, getting some proffesional help, to help her over the fear would be good.

Could you perhaps put a baskerville type muzzle on her? I understand that your dog is under control and other dogs are approaching her but that's what dogs do. If you walk in places where there are off lead dogs then some will approach you, and it's up to you to keep your own dog and others safe.

I have an elderly dog who used to be dog aggressive and I still would not trust him. Due to health problems he no longer runs up to other dogs, but tends to stay at my heel. I could say he's at my heel and therefore under control so not muzzle him - but I never would. It doesn't do him any harm to wear a muzzle, he still gets to speak to other dogs but in a safe controlled manner. It takes the stress away from the walk for me :-)

You have a responsibility not only to your own dog but to those who may be affected by your and/or its actions or omissions.

I talk from a perspective of experience, if you see a dog approaching, put your dog on a lead and stand between it and the offender. It is simple. As your dog is so obedient and comes to heel without asking how much more trouble would it be to clip a lead onto your dog.

This would also minimise your risks from being pursued under the DDA.

This does not mean you cannot exercise your dog off lead, it just means you have to exercise a little more care and attention when out so that you can prevent your dog getting into trouble and "rolling" other dogs, then you will be on the front foot instead of the back foot as your dog will be under control, it cannot harm another dog and the positions will be reversed.

Obviously a muzzle is immaterial as muzzles do not stop dogs rolling other dogs.

It sounds like you have a lovely obedient girl.  I would however advise like the others have said, when you see another dog, recall your girl and clip her on her lead whilst you walk past.  Once out of sight your girl can return off lead.  I always say if I see dogs off lead then they should be socialble and interact with other dogs.  If I see a dog on lead then it is my responsiblity to keep my dog under control and away from the said dog.  If your dog is on lead no one can moan if their dog bounds up to her and she tells the other dog off. 

thank you , she is recalled everytime and clipped on to her lead  she also returns on her own when she see another dog , the trouble only happens when the other dogs come running towards her as she returns to heal , both my dogs are trained not to approch other dogs without my say so- my other dog is the very freindly but again would only greet another dog with my say so .  i know  in the event of  major incident my dog would be at fault - but im am tired of other owners who refuse to recall thier dogs even when they see i have recalled mine .    

I really feel for you as I have the same problem, my dog has no interest in other dogs and won't approach them, even if I have her on leash and make a smart about-turn to walk away from the approaching dog, it never seems to occur to the other owner to call their dog. I solved the problem by finding open places where I can see dogs coming from a way off, so I can have plenty of time to take evasive action, and walking very early in the morning when not many people are about.

A lady in our park has a similar problem and she carries some sort of rattle which doesn't seem to bother her dog - but tends to keep others away.  It's like a wooden kid's toy that you crank - a bit like football supporters used to use.  It does rely on the noise not upsetting her own dog.

I wonder also if it might be possible to re-socialise your dog so it has some more positive experiences - I can't remember the name - but there is a place which has therapy dogs and experienced behaviourists and basically it seems that the dogs re-teach your dog.  Hopefully someone will remember the name of the place (somewhere not far from the home counties I think) -- I would also be interested to know if anyone has any experience of the place.

her social skill are fine she will run and play with dogs she knows and has been introdudce to .    Its just frustrating as she is always seen as aggressive , but it is just defence aggression , she is always reprimanded  but always seems to look at you as if to say " What my fault , did you see where that dog wanted to shove its nose !" thanks for all the advice 

> she is always reprimanded 

Allthough her behaviour is not what you want, it is only her natural reaction. She feels intimidated/threatened/uncomfortable of the other dogs appoach/invading her space and acts on this the only way she can (a dog can either freeze, run away, 'faf' around or defend itself when faced with a percieved threat, she's defending herself). The only way to stop the behaviour is to change the way she feels about strange dogs. A reprimand will not make her see strange dogs as something nice, nor it will make her think her reaction is 'wrong', it will only serve to re-inforce her bad feelings towards them.

Proffesional help to get her more comfortable with strange dogs would do her (and you :) ) the world of good. Even if you don't want her socialising with strange dogs, if you can get her to a level where she will recall and not be frightened of dogs that follow & sniff her, she'll be happier and you'll be happier as there won't be that sinking feeling when you see a loose dog.

This link is worth a read.

She has been taken to a specialist dog trainer -who's advice was always to reprimanded  in firm tones - this is the reason she is as good as she is she knows to avoid other dogs - the problem is from time to time we get the" he's only being friendly types"  who's dog and owners think their dog has the perfect social skill   and gets to my dog before she has reached her recall point .
I personal think its 5% my dogs problem and 95% the others dog owner .  the 5% problem I have is the one that to an outsider looks worse - llI keep working on it !!  

> She has been taken to a specialist dog trainer -who's advice was always to reprimanded  in firm tones

:( Oh no, that's not very good.

As you can see, all it's taught her is avoidance & that other dogs are not nice things, once outside of your own property there is no way to controll if other dogs approach her, so she can not always avoid. She needs to learn that dogs are no threat.

I'll try to explain the difference.
My children have always been taught that fire is not to be touched, I've had no problems using harsh tones with them and when old enough explaining that fire is dangerous - they have learnt fire is 'no touch', they are wary of fire.
My boys also have learnt that the Christmas pressents under the tree are 'no touch' untill they are told they can. They have learnt that Christmas presents are 'no touch' unless told, but they still LOVE Christmas presensts.
Your dog needs to feel the same way about other dogs as my children do about Christmas presents. She currently feels the same way about dogs as my children do about fire. Obviously we can not explain in words what we want from the dog, but we can reinforce what we want using rewards. Teaching avoidence with harsh methods/negative association makes the dog not like the object, teaching a dog avoidence through rewards does not make the dog dislike the object, it just teaches it to avoid.

When a dog does not like something and that thing is close to the dog, it can panick or feel forced into defending itself against that thing - in your dogs case, the 'thing' is other dogs. If she were taught that dogs are good things, she would not feel the need to defend herself from them.

I feel sorry for you, you've taken proffesional advice and ended up with somebody that uses bully-boy tactics which has not done anything to help your dog :(

When/how often does she get to interact and socialise with other dogs? If not at all then she needs to be taught that other dogs are nothing to be feared - after all this time she might never be totally reconciled to them, especially having been reprimanded for (in her view) being near them, but it's in both your interests, and those of the other people and dogs you meet, to help her learn to accept them.

Other dogs are her own species, after all, and it's a shame if she never gets to mix with them.

ETA: I see you say she mixes with her own group of friends. How did you get her to accept them?

she walks with other dogs everyday as i say its not that she  dislikes other dogs and her and our other dog are the best of friends -in fact our other dog always comes and places herself between her and the other dog  when we have an incident . she was pretty mangled after the attack on her and as i say its just when other dogs run at her . 

I must be honest here and I am great full for all the replies, but in general it seems that that's you all believe it's ok  for a "Friendly "dog to bound up to another dog and be accepted without redress.
You asked how my dog gets to know her Friends - simple she is introduced on lead and in a controlled circumstance - once she knows another dog is not a threat she will play and be happy with that dog. When she was attacked  the other dogs owner said it was my fault for letting such a young dog off the lead. I know my dog she loving and gentle and so much better trained than 99% of dogs we meet , but has a massive fear of dogs running at her that she doesn't know. We have to reprimand her, because owners of "friendly" dogs believe their dogs have done nothing wrong so we have to discipline our dog , your replies have reinforced that point . 

>We have to reprimand her, because owners of "friendly" dogs believe their dogs have done nothing wrong so we have to discipline our dog

You're missing the point. If you reprimand her for 'defending herself' when friendly (and if they're running up to socialise then they are friendly, as we'd hope all dogs were) then you must make sure she doesn't need to. That means you must either train her to tolerate other dogs running up to her, or make sure that they don't.

If she has a go at other dogs because you've not recalled her soon enough then you should apologise to the owner and explain that she's defensive after being attacked - but don't punish her for it.

As I say , she was attacked by two" friendly dogs" running at her  when she was young  she lost lots of blood and  had 24 stitches  . she has never forgotten . Even the specialist dog trainer  we took her to said it was something she may never get over . She never runs at other dogs never attacks another dogs  plays fine with dogs she knows .  The trouble with recall is that no matter how fast she responds other" Friendly" dogs believe it's a chase . As I say my dog responses to my commands. So called" friendly" dogs are allowed to get away with    behaviour   much in the same way as a happy drunk in a pub who thinks he's being funny  till someone takes offence   . if the only course of action is to correct our own dogs action because its clearly wrong ,then we have to follow the advice of the professional who by the way also said that a proper dog owner would never allow their "friendly " dog to approach another dog without permission .    My original question was more about  the legality of  two dogs off the lead.

Just out of interest, what qualifications does the professional (I believe you said specialist, but could be wrong) trainer have, and what organisation is he/she a member of?

Remember, if other dogs are coming up to meet and greet then they are friendly. Unfortunately your dog (and I have one the same; he has poor social skills) is the one with the problem. If I don't get him on the lead again soon enough then I'm the one at fault.

The two dogs that attacked her looked lovely law abiding dogs- my dog stood and greeted them with  tail wagging ,eyes wide open in innocent  and wonderment  as  those two "friendly" dogs as you describe all dogs who are allowed to run loose tried to kill her .  let me ask you the question would you allow your "friendly" dog to run up to a child ? 

I m  afraid I have to agree with Goldenboy here. People should NOT allow their dogs to run up to other dogs whether or not they are on the lead nor how friendly they think their dogs are. I have one dog who like golden boys has been attacked several times by other dogs and is consequently very nervous of other dogs. Particularly if they run towards her at speed as this is what has happened in the past but the dog has attacked her. Nowadays she tends to assume that a dog running towards her is coming to attack not play.

I do my best to avoid other dogs and keep away from them but there are no end of owners out there who think that because their dog doesn't mean any harm they can allow it to run up to other dogs. If I see a dog heading in our direction I put my girl on a lead and if neccessary call out and ask the other owner to call their dog back. so many times though the other owner either just shouts oh s/hes friendly or just plain can't get their dog back.

I cannot keep my girl on the lead all the time as she is an active dog and she needs free running excercise and likes to play fetch with her ball. She has an excellent recall and like goldenboys dog never voluntarily goes towards other dogs. She only barks and snaps if she feels she has no other choice.

I do have to say goldenboy I would not tell your girl off. Why should she get punished because other people cannot control their dogs? I would call her to you and also ask the other owner to call their dog away. If necessary get between your dog and the oncoming dog and shout it and stop it coming towards your dog. if the dog keeps coming and gets barked at then it is not your fault and I would make sure the other owner knows that.
This is a very good article and I think should be compulsory reading for dog owners: http://www.nesr.info/images-english-shepherd/He-just-wants-to-say-hi.pdf

>as  those two "friendly" dogs as you describe all dogs who are allowed to run loose

That's not what I said. ;-) I said that if dogs don't have evil intentions when they run up (they're just coming to meet and greet) then they are friendly.

>I do have to say goldenboy I would not tell your girl off. Why should she get punished because other people cannot control their dogs? I would call her to you and also ask the other owner to call their dog away. If necessary get between your dog and the oncoming dog and shout it and stop it coming towards your dog. if the dog keeps coming and gets barked at then it is not your fault and I would make sure the other owner knows that.

Absolutely. That's what I do with my grumpy old s*d - it's not his fault he's a misery-guts, and equally it's not the others dogs' (or owners') fault. My dog's the one with the problem so it's my job to make sure situations don't get out of hand.

> People should NOT allow their dogs to run up to other dogs

I think it would be a terrible world if dogs were not allowed to be dogs and socialise with their own kind. Where I walk most days we often meet fairly large packs of dogs, several professional dog walkers walk there and people like me with a few dogs. Most of them are allowed to greet each other naturally without human interference and 99.99% of the time there is never a cross word. It's great fun for dogs and humans alike :-)  I wouldn't have walked there when Tchi was younger though because he hated other dogs and of course they would always run up to him, so I mostly walked in farmers fields where I wouldn't meet anyone else. Now he enjoys meeting other dogs (I think he's senile!) we can be sociable. Several of the dogs we meet are muzzled, as is Tchi, and one or two are put on leads to say hello, by taking these simple precautions everyone is safe and the dogs are allowed to meet and greet new friends :-)

and like i said the two dogs that  Attacked her looked like angels min before they tried to rip her to shreds . Her reprimanded is always done with a positive  slant ie . no- heal-reward .     Because of what happened to her the  positive reinforcement of the heal command overrides the  no (please don't roll that blooming friendly dog)   

just read that link - going to print it off and the next incident that happens instead of explaining - just give the friendly dog owner a copy -thank you !

We do agree that other dogs should not be permitted to hurtle up to your dog, regardless of whether they are friendly or not, regardless of whether your dog is happy to be greeted that way or not, it is rude and it causes problems and the vast majority of us here are aware of that.

However - you will never unfortunately train the masses - there will always be a large section of society who believe that their dog is friendly (even though it isnt), that their dog is friendly (and it is but its also extremely rude), that their dog has some god given right to hurtle about off lead and do as it pleases and sod everyone else.

So you need to manage your dogs life in such a way as these people and their dogs cannot negatively affect her. In the process of doing this you may improve her feelings about other dogs.

Do not punish her for her reaction - if shes had the chance to react YOU did not react quickly enough, or you were prevented from doing so - it is in no way her fault and punishing her will not help.

Instead, take evasive action the second you see a 'its ok my dogs friendly' type - go the other way, step in front of her, use your body language to send the other dog away with a deep NO!

Alongside this, whenever she sees another dog, no matter what the distance - you lavish praise and reward on her. Seeing other dogs is a GREAT thing for her, it should be one of the best things ever.

If you manage to combine preventing things from happening (and particularly, preventing her from having to react which means preventing her from feeling threatened and fearful) AND rewarding her for the mere sight of another dog, you will improve her behaviour in that she will feel more relaxed and happier about the presence of other dogs.

It is a subtle change from what you are currently doing but it really will help, the rewards will make her feel better about other dogs around, and you actively stopping them from getting to her will make her trust that YOU can handle things, she does not need to.

yep do that - if she see another dog she turns and make eye contact - priase and reward . i know my dog - i know what works -i know her history . i dont no the friendly dog running at her nor does she . dogs are fight or flee creatures  and dogs know pack life better than us . humans dwell on thease matters long after the dogs involved have moved on . merry christmas   

very interesting thread,here! i also have a dog whos a little snappy,though she is improving,due to a scare she had at 5months old.Most owners round here are polite,and if they see you recall or leash your dog,they will do the same,but of course there are always a few who wont,and as most of the walks round here involve narrow paths,avoiding others can be hard.I find making Jess lie down works best for us,till the other dog  goes past,but the other day id put her in a down,but a big friendly lurcher stuck his nose in,closely followed by this chaps other 2 dogs and the chap, who clearly had zilch control-well,then,neither did i because Jess got up and mooched off,cant say i blame her.I do find it a pain when other dogs come over"its ok he just wants to play!"sigh-yes,but mine doesnt!apart from anything else,one day these dogs will stick their noses in at the wrong dog-its silly to assume all dogs are friendly.However,I was pleased with Jess as she didnt snap,improvement!

I find bitches can be a little more stand offish than dogs.

They don't mind saying hello but then don't want to get a lot deeper into the run and play situation, dependant on age of course.

Some owners wrongly think that dogs always want to play with each other.......

Some owners think that because its 'play'... its fine. My bitch does indeed want to play... but her methods of play are very saluki type, run, chase, rarrarrar bite the neck chasey chasey like a mad thing... and on top of that if told 'No! Go away stupid fluffy face' , because she has arrived rudely at top speed without giving the other dog the chance to even think 'Oh hello, here comes a dog that looks just like Celine Dion'... then she gets horrid about it and snaps and snarls back!

So we are working on nicer greetings from her and self control but even other walkers who have SEEN her in action have said to me 'Oh.. she only wants to play' and really not grasped when I have said 'Yes, but she is RUDE and stroppy and it isn't fair on other dogs'.

Not all dog play is sweet and innocent either, sure it gives the dog a buzz and they enjoy it but a lot of dog play is about testing one another out, practice/mock hunting/fighting, posturing and re-affirming where they stand with one another. With dogs who know one another well and are relaxed in one anothers company thats not really a big deal, but with dogs who don't know one another well, or theres a degree of tension or old grudges between them, or something has changed (ones been injured or ill for example) play can lead on to much less innocent things!

I think it would be a terrible world if dogs were not allowed to be dogs and socialise with their own kind.

In an ideal world I agree, but this is not an ideal world. In the past when I have been walking a gsd with issues, ALWAYS on a lead, and other dogs are allowed to run over, this has caused me a lot of problems, and on many occasions my blood has boiled on the absolute ignorance of other dog owners with the ' he only wants to be friendly' attitude. Trying to handle a large dog in these situations can be difficult and is avoidable if people respect that my dog is on a lead for a reason, and it would be polite and intelligent to call their dog back.

My dog was allowed to run free at about 2am on the beach when I knew it would be deserted. I had to set the alarm to take him for his walk and never ever encountered anyone else, however daytime walks were always on a lead as I had no option. I used to carry a very large stick with me to use as a deterrent to keep the invading dog away.
I had no option but to walk in public areas although I tried to find areas where I could see all around, but this didn't always help as some dogs would run a fair distance, and seeing them coming was an awful feeling, and even though I tried to relax my dog I could feel him tense up ready for a fight. If I turned tail and walked in the opposite direction the other dogs would always follow, so that didn't help.
The only thing I could have done was not to have walked my dog at all and that really was not an option, why should he miss out on a walk because of the stupidity of other owners.
Apologies - this is a sore subject for me - I will now get down off my soapbox. By the way Happy Christmas !

> The only thing I could have done was not to have walked my dog at all

As he was on his lead anyway I would stick to walking round the streets during the day, there all dogs should be on a lead, that would have been safer for all.

I'm just back from a lovely walk, met loads of people and dogs all off lead, no hassle, Merry Christmases exchanged with owners, dogs all had a wee sniff of each other and we went on our way to meet the next group :-)

As he was on his lead anyway I would stick to walking round the streets during the day

Sorry Chaumsong, but why should I HAVE to walk my dog round the streets because of the lax attitude of other owners. I lived in a beautiful area and am entitled to enjoy the lovely walks with my dog under control on a lead and don't see why I should give this up to pound the streets instead. My gsd was a cruelty case and the problems were not down to my lack of training, in fact I was trying to give him a better life and let him see there was more to life than the concrete jungle he had known in his previous life.

If a dog has to stay on the lead then it's no bother to walk him where dogs shouldn't be let off the lead anyway. If offlead dogs are a nuisance it's sensible to avoid the places where they are. It's not really any different to having a bitch in season - you avoid potential trouble.

I agree that you shouldn't have to avoid the lovely places because of other people - but from the dog's POV, if walking in a beautiful place is likely to involve off lead dogs running over and scaring them, they are going to find the beautiful places extremely stressful by association and might actually be happier only walking on pavements or in the middle of nowhere.

When I first got Tia we spent most of her walks either out of town in fields where we never meet anyone, or in a small field just down the road where others do walk but everyone keeps to themselves and we could keep a minimum of the width of the field between us and other dogs.  She found the local park very stressful because it is always busy with off lead dogs - and the vast majority do not run over to say hello, they are very well behaved.  If they'd done that she'd have absolutely hated it.  The quiet fields actually helped her progress to walking at the park because she had long periods of no meetings so her stress levels were minimal when we tried the park - for a while I was walking her in the field for about 2 weeks at a time then the park for a day or two, the field allowed her stress levels to drop afterwards and it helped her a lot.

These days she can walk in the park every day and be absolutely fine, she has a few friends now and is generally much better at meeting dogs without finding it very stressful at all.

I can really relate to this post so much.  My eldest boy was attacked at 8 months by two collies whilst he was on the lead, they came out of nowhere.  He has never been the same since but we have worked hard and he is alot better but the owners around here I could throttle sometimes.

Case in point was last weekend, walking up a right of way that runs alongside some fields, saw a lady coming down with a bouncy retriever so I moved diagonally across the field to avoid and was feeding my dog treats constantly so his attention was on me, retriever kept coming, I shout to owner and ask her to call her dog back as mine doesnt like dogs in his face, she calls him back, he completely ignores her, dog comes right over starts barking in my dogs face and then starts nipping at my dogs rear end.  Lady finally gets over to us and put her dog on its lead and says 'why are you bringing a dog out for a walk that clearly winds up other dogs'.  Clearly you cannot do right for doing wrong and it drives me insane.