That is the question!

What is the age of the bitch? It's usually a good idea to do it eventually, but not too young.

Oh sorry, I didn't explain at all.

It is just a general question. I have an Irish Setter bitch (19 months) and now a Flat Coated Retriever bitch (3 1/2 months). I personally wouldn't recommend to anyone having theirs done until after their first season at around 12 - 18 months depending on breed. But that is just what I would say, I have not had bitches as pets before and don't want to have either of mine done for a variety of reasons. I was just wondering what other people thought e.g. if they would have or have had their bitch done, why? And the same for if they won't have their bitch done aside from the obvious breeding element.

A friend of mine has a staffie bitch and she was unhappy about having her spayed due to 2 vets from the same surgery giving her conflicting advice. But since then she has had phantom pregnancies and persistently humps other dogs, would spaying calm down her sex drive as it can with a dog??? (But that is another vein to the one I originally started with!)

Answers to any of my rambling appreciated!!

Jo

Even though I breed I have my girls spayed after their last litter to avoid the life threatening Pyometra (infected womb) which most often occurs in older bitches and requires and emergency spay (when they are ill) rather than have it done when they are fit and well.

Pyometra is most common in unspayed middle aged bitches, especially those who have not been bred from, but it can occur with a first season or after mating.

For bitches not destined for breeding fewer seasons also reduces the occurrence of mammary tumours of which around 40% can be malignant.

So on balance with bitches it is best to spay at some point.  The article below gives the pros and cons.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Like you I'd always wait until after the first season at least, and depending on the maturity of the bitch I might well wait until after the second (if I had no plans ever to breed from her); the avoidance of pyometritis is, for me, the major factor in having it done.

Thanks people. I have heard people say that some can lose coat condition after being spayed setters in particular? Or mumbo jumbo?

Also does anyone know about the staffie question I asked earlier?

Humping is rarely a sexually motivated activity. 

Certainly those who were inclined to do it when entire continued to do so when spayed.

Mine only ever did it though when one of them was in season.

It is often a show of dominance, or a put down, also over excitement.

yes I have a humper and spaying her did not affect it at all.

Interesting link Brainless esp having lost a  neutered gsd bitch to splenic haemangiosarcoma. Personally I would spay a bitch but never before first season and probably longer than that esp after reading your link

>I have heard people say that some can lose coat condition after being spayed setters in particular? Or mumbo jumbo?

Setters usually go more "orange" and fluffy.  Out of choice I wouldnt get a Setter done as it really does change their appearance quite dramatically. 

I have heard people say that some can lose coat condition after being spayed setters in particular? Or mumbo jumbo?

Spaying does have an effect on certain breeds coats. irish ssetters, flatcoated retrievers, spaniels plus others.

I have all of my flatcoated retrievers & WCS neutered. I didnt feel i shouldnt have it done just because of the effect it would have on their coats. I give high does EPO to all girls and it does help the coats.  Also none of my bitches are overweight. this I feel is controlable. it is the owners that allow their dogs to gain weight. neutered dogs & bitches metabolisms change and equally it they gain weight, then less food, increased exercise helps.

">I give high does EPO to all girls and it does help the coats.  I will try this as I have a spayed Sheltie and spaying has seriously affected her coat, it is very flyaway and much more difficult to groom.

From personal experience I would not spay again after first season, even if not for breeding I would wait for several seasons to pass

Spaying has not affected her humping, it seems to be a social thing, be it dominance or over excitement, I'm just pleased that I say hello by shaking hands.

I find it weird anyone would worry about appearance and the risk of a fluffy coat rather than spay with the obvious health benefits of avoiding pyometra and reducing the risk of mammary tumours.As has been pointed out EPO or an oil supplement such as Viacutan can really help the coat situation, but even if it didn't, all my precious bitches would still be spayed to protect their health, for preference about eight weeks after their first season, as long as they seem to be mature enough by that time. Their health and a long life is much more important to me than what they look like. 

There are health factors involved either way.... not just positive in favour of spaying which is why most people leave it a while, certainly until the bitch has matured physically and mentally, but you're still left with the possibilities of incontinence.  I'm not in any rush to have bitches spayed - for the sake of their health!

Incontinence, which can usually be solved with drugs, weighed up against pyometra and mammary cancer? No contest for me. Over the years I have had many spayed bitches and none of mine have been incontinent. I have known many, many spayed bitches and only a very small handful with incontinence--all controlled with Incurin or Propalin.

Statistically about 20% of spayed bitches will become incontinent, and in the instances where drugs haven't been able to control it you have a very unhappy bitch (if she lives in the house and was house-trained) and unhappy owner. If the bitch was spayed young, so the vulva is still immature, then you can have health issues from urine scald as well. certainly incontinence is worth putting into the equation.

20% seems very high-- would you give me your source for that please--I'd be interested? I've been runnung boarding kennels for 25 years, and also rescuing dogs, so I have had a lot of spayed bitches though my hands and I really have only had a very small number-- you could definitely count on one hand-- with incontinence and they were all fine with drugs.
I do agree that personally I wouldn't spay before the bitch was mature enough.

I would recommend not, particularly with the coated breeds - I know spaying does horrible things to spaniel and terrier coats, so it's a fair bit it won't be good for a setter or retriever, though I'm not an expert. Those hormones do so many things. If you have unneutered males or a stray dog problem, you might have to spay, in which case I would wait at least 1 season if not 2. But if it's feasible just to manage those 3 weeks once or twice a year, with silly knickers to save the furniture, games in the back garden, and so on, than I generally prefer not to do major surgery on my dogs unless it's medically or behaviourally necessary. I have a young bitch here I am unlikely to ever want to breed from as she's not up to standard, but I won't spay her unless it becomes necessary. I have her mother who at 7 isn't going to have any more litters, but again I won't spay unless I need to. :-)

It's even higher in some heavier breeds like Rotts Boxers and Dobes. 

All the spayed Dobes I know have to take medication sooner or alter, where with my breed I have been lucky and no incontinence with my girls who have lived between 11 and almost 14 years, but neon were spayed before 5 years of age and were kept fit and trim.

The coat changes can also become major welfare issues with some breeds, being very difficult to groom and as most older dogs skins become more sensitive can cause a great deal of discomfort for the affected dog..

> and they were all fine with drugs.
>

If I thought the risks of needing to keep a bitch on permanent medication was higher than the risk of Pyometra and mammary tumours then I would keep intact.

It is best to weight up the pros and cons for the individuals.  The high numbers at risk of mammary tumours has been shown to have been based on a small survey of related animals, and is largely discredited.

Certainly I (have had nowhere near the expected numbers in my bitches one out of 8 adult bitches so far or 1 out of 5 bitches that I have owned who are/were 5 years or older.

I have had no cases of Pyometra with 5 girls spayed at 5 to 7 years.

A friend in a Spaniel breed found that nearly every bitch she owned got mammary tumours and most had a full strip before their lives were over.

On balance in my own breed I feel that spaying at 7 avoids some of the negatives associated with spaying and gives the protection from Pyometra which I consider the major danger.

> I find it weird anyone would worry about appearance and the risk of a fluffy coat rather than spay with the obvious health benefits of avoiding pyometra and reducing the risk of mammary tumours.

I agree.  I would never do this at a very young age, indeed would be in no rush, but I certainly would want it done by about 7 or eight to prevent these risks.
Coat and appearance is absolutely secondary to me.  If the coat becomes difficult to groom in a show trim I would just clip.

>20% seems very high-- would you give me your source for that please--I'd be interested?

It was from an article in one of the veterinary magazines we get at work - Vet News or Veterinary Nurse or the BSAVA magazine; I can't remember which one.

>> 20% seems very high-- would you give me your source for that please--I'd be interested?
> It was from an article in one of the veterinary magazines we get at work - Vet News or Veterinary Nurse or the BSAVA magazine; I can't remember which one.

Vets told me it was a fairly high figure for larger bitches---- after I had my previous weimaraner spayed and she was horribly incontinent after surgery. and none of the drugs helped her at all. and believe me she had the LOT.  had to have major surgery -twice- to get the problem to a level that she was not suffering . was still drippy but at least not at level of distress.
I did have my current bitch spayed but was very afraid. thankfully for her it turned out well

>I find it weird anyone would worry about appearance and the risk of a fluffy coat rather than spay with the obvious health benefits of avoiding pyometra and reducing the risk of mammary tumours.

Very few of the breeders I know spay their older bitches, and I only know one who has had a bitch with mammary tumours, and she sailed through the op and lived several more years. But that's only a small group of breeders in 1 or 2 breeds, I wouldn't like to make blanket statements.

I think it does depend on breed to a large extent.

With my breed luckily there is very little noticeable change in coat appearance, volume or texture (I have noticed the spayed girls coats are not as water repellent), so I can happily continue showing them regularly to around 12 years of age, and occasionally to the end of their lives.

Being a medium size probably reduces the spay incontinence issue. 

Mammary tumours do not see to be a common issue, so spaying after a bitch has matured/finished breeding is really about reducing the risk of Pyometra, and it can be more convenient to have fewer entire bitches all coming in season.

I would say that the change in spaniel coats is more than a minor inconvenience, and certainly they would no longer be showable, and with your breed being a toy and often seemingly prone to weight gain (over feeding by owners), the balance may swing the other way to not spaying.

Totally agree with you Zan - your bitch's health vs appearance? No contest. I have 2 incontinent spayed bitches but it is controlled with medication so no problem to them or me. (Probably due to the inept vet who spayed them as I found out later that she had a poor record in this department.)

The first foster bitch we took on, only a year or so old, died of septicemia (sp.?) caused by an undiagnosed closed pyometra. She had been to the vet as she had been on-off lethargic/poor appetite/drinking a lot. He thought she had a mild tummy bug. She died in our bedroom, in the early hours of the next morning and I woke just as she had passed. Horrific. 

I have a just turned two year old cocker spaniel bitch and a four month old dobermann bitch. My males are neutered and have had no problems. But spaying my girls is a decision I'm struggling with. Obviously the doberman is too young so I dont have to make that decision for another year. But my cocker is due her fourth season in January. So come April I would be doing it. But I really am on the fence over it. I find vets here a bit clueless as they all push for the six month spay so generally argue over it! But friendly arguing. I asked them about the increased incidence of incontinence to be told it wouldnt happen unless they nicked the ureter. Obviously I would go mad if this happened as all my dogs sleep indoors. My best friend spayed her german shepherd at two years old but she is quite a silly dog abd hasn't really matured , remaining very puppyish and has struggled to control her weight. But if my girls developed pyo and I lost them to it, I'd be devastated. To spay or not to spay really us quite a difficult decision. Funny how I had less sympathy for the boys!

I have never had an incontinence problem with Cocker bitches and mine have lived well into old age.  I think it is an issue with just a few breeds really.

>Totally agree with you Zan - your bitch's health vs appearance? No contest.

I agree too - but the slight possibility of a problem in the future is not the same. :-)

To me, the chances of getting pyometra, mammary tumours, ovarian cancer etc are not worth taking the risk and are not imo a 'slight possibility'.

I think the incontinence problems are very often related to a bitch being overweight, the same thing happens in humans, as they age they can experience some slackness in that area, regardless if they have had children, or hysterectomy or not.
Being overweight can cause additional pressure so cause leackage !!! Hence all the adverts for Tenna Lady.
In my experience having had a number of bitches over 40 plus years, the ones that were spayed never had any problems, but they were always kept very fit and healthy, I have always cut their food down a little after they have been spayed.
The one bitch we didn't spay had a pyometra age 5 and then went on to develop mammary tumours aged 8, she also later developed cushings disease, but I don't know if that was related or not.
I would never worry about coats, I have had spaniels in the past who have developed a slightly thicker coat, but a pair of thining scissors usually makes them presentable.

> To me, the chances of getting pyometra, mammary tumours, ovarian cancer etc are not worth taking the risk and are not imo a 'slight possibility'.

Absolutely. No way are these just a "slight possibility".

>I think the incontinence problems are very often related to a bitch being overweight

It seems to make little difference. The bitches on incontinence medication where I work don't fall into the overweight category; there are several causes, one of which is where the bladder has slipped backwards within the abdomen because of the removal of the supporting tissue to the uterus.

Apparently the chances of an entire bitch getting mammary cancer are the same as a human woman.

My 2 bitches are not overweight (racing snake Collies lol) so that's not the cause of their incontinence.

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may
exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the
odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the
relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs
* if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
* nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
* reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
* removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
* if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
* increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
* triples the risk of hypothyroidism
* increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
* causes urinary "spay incontinence" in 4-20% of female dogs
* increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
* increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
* doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
* increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
* increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

From:  http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

There is some pretty interesting reading at these as well:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665
Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats,
Margaret V. Root Kustritz, dvm, phd, dact

http://www.savethedals.org/earlyneuter.htm
Veterinary "Review" Article on Neutering, with Implications for Dalmatian Stone-Formers    Abstracted by Carroll H. Weiss
Study Group on Urinary Stones
Research Committee
Dalmatian Club of America

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html
NEUTERING MALE AND FEMALE DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm
The Question Of Neutering and at what age
(Put together by Gregg Tonkin, Little River Labradors from postings by Pam Davol PHD and Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP)

http://leerburg.com/pdf/neutering.pdf
Should You Neuter Your Dog?
Ed Frawley, Leerburg Kennels   * words are l e e r b u r g.com and L e e r b u r g Kennels

http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/files/WillWeChangeOnEarlySpay-Neuter_Villalobos.pdf
The Bond and Beyond for VPN December 2008
by Alice Villalobos
Will We Change on Early Spay-Neuter?

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/castrationindogs.html
ISSUES REGARDING CASTRATION IN DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.petresource.com/Articles%20of%20Interest/new_views_on_neutering.htm
New Views On Neutering
By Ruth Marrion, DVM

http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Session%20I.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering
Proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Non-Surgical
Contraceptive Methods for Pet Population Control * www.acc-d.org
SESSION OVERVIEW - Dr. John Verstegen

http://www.peptech.com/HTML/Animal_Health/Superlorin_general.html
A non-surgical method to suppress testosterone

http://prdupl02.ynet.co.il/ForumFiles_2/23999370.pdf
Pros and Cons of Neutering
E. Hardie
Department of Clinical Sciences, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC, USA.

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml
RSPCA Admit to Spaying and Castrating Puppies AT SIX WEEKS OLD
Stan Rawlinson MTCBPT.MPAACT
Doglistener Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer

http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm#vacc
Should I spay or should I no..?  -- pros and cons of Spay-neuter
Hungarian Vizsla Health Resource

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml
Spaying and Castration (Neutering) Dogs and Cats A Stark Warning
Stan Rawlinson, a full time Dog Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer.

http://www.wholedognews.com/
Spay, Neuter, and Cancer: Revisiting and Old Trinity
Myrna Milani, BS, DVM

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete One Veterinarian's Opinion
© 2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf
Rebuttal to "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete"
Lisa M Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
Surgical Sciences Sect Dept of Vet Small Animal Clinical Sci
College of Vet Med and Biom Sciences Texas A&M Univ College Station TX 77843

http://www.pluggd.tv/audio/channels/dog_talk_the_radio_show/episodes/4njnh
Dog Talk Show #96 Tracie Hotchner (10-18-2008)
Early spay/neuter may be harming our dogs! Hear Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DAVCP on the physical benefits of delaying neutering and trainer Parvene Farhoody on how it can reduce aggression.

http://www.antrozoologisenteret.no/artikler/art_breed.pdf
Effects of breed, sex, and neuter status on trainability in dogs
James A. Serpell* and Yuying Hsu+

http://users.skynet.be/fa242124/a-english/castration-dogs.html
Gonadectomy and behavior
Dr Joël Dehasse

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/faculty/Gosling/reprints/AABS05DogPersonalityReview.pdf
Temperament and personality in dogs (Canis familiaris): A review and evaluation of past research
Amanda C. Jones *, Samuel D. Gosling

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=1_23_Benefits-Risks-of-Neutering
Evaluating the Benefits and Risks of Neutering
The SkeptVet -  the owner of this blog is not identified but the articles referenced are searchable.

http://www.petfinder.com/for-shelters/pediatric-spay-neuter.html
Pediatric Spay/Neuter
Dr. Lila Miller, ASPCA

http://k9harmony.co.uk/spaying-and-castration/
Spaying and Castration - What Your Vet and the Rescue Centres May Not Tell You
Pauline Waller, member #178 Professional Association of Applied Canine Trainers, - articles referenced and searchable

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1123732;hl=castrate#pid1123732
To Castrate or Not? - Interesting discussion regarding a young male targeted by an aggressive older male.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs
Deborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of
Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania

http://www.2ndchance.info/spayneuter.htm
At What Age Should I Spay or Neuter My Dog or Cat?
What Are The Advantages And Disadvantages Of Neutering My Pet?
Revisiting The Idea Of Early-Age Neutering
Ron Hines DVM PhD  10/05/09

http://saveourdogs.net/category/health/
Articles and links to Veterinary organizations opposing mandatory spay/neuter

http://askdryin.com/blog/tag/dog-behavior-arousal-aggression-spay-neuter/
Can Spaying Make Dog Behaviour Worse?
Sophia Yin, DVM, MS        March 5, 2009

http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/effects_of_neutering.html
The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behaviour
James O'Heare, Based on section from Aggressive Behavior in Dogs, 2006,

http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chatforum/showthread.php?t=23096
The Behavioural Effects of Canine Castration
Hazel Palmer, 1993  See post #8 in the chat forum at Pet Friendly World.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf
Does Spaying and Neutering Reduce Aggression?
Dr. Polley DVM, 2001   American Dog Breeders Association

http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html
A Healthier Respect for Ovaries (in dogs)
David J. Waters, DVM, PhD, Diplomate ACVS
Director, Center for Exceptional Longevity Studies
Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2009b/091201OvarianResearch.html
Message for women and dogs: keeping ovaries is linked to longevity
To the Purdue Research Park, http://www.purdueresearchpark.com

http://www.rockllewellinsetters.com/OvaryExposureLongevityStudyfromAgingCellJournalbyDavidJWatersetalDec2009.pdf
Exploring mechanisms of sex differences in longevity:  lifetime ovary exposure and exceptional longevity in dogs
David J. Waters,1,2 Seema S. Kengeri,1 Beth Clever,1 Julie A. Booth,1 Aimee H. Maras,1 Deborah L.
Schlittler1 and Michael G. Hayek3
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may09/090515j.asp
AVMA: Mandatory spay/neuter a bad idea
Javma News, May 15, 2009

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/male-dog-neutering.html
Veterinary Advice Online:  Male Dog Neutering

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/dog-spaying.html
Veterinary advice Online:  Dog Spaying (Spaying a Female Dog)
Dr. Shauna O'Meara  Pet Informed:  http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/index.html

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/applan/article/S0168-1591(08)00114-7/abstract
Breed differences in canine aggression 1, Dec. 2008
Deborah L. Duffy, Yuying Hsub, James A. Serpella

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full
Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk
Dawn M. Cooley, Benjamin C. Beranek, Deborah L. Schlittler, Nita W. Glickman, Lawrence T. Glickman, and David J. Waters