The dog is a female collie (I think pure-bred), is about 3 or 4 years old, is entire. Lives with a male collie cross, the male is very people friendly.
The dogs belong to my sisters neighbours (mother & duaghter + daughters husband).
The mother is in her 60's, she will be having an emergency carer alarm thingy fitted to her home soon, with  a cord around her neck with a button on to press if she needs help. My sister is one of the people the alarm will call, as my sister lives next-door she will most likely be the first to the house in the event of the mother needing assistance.

My sister is worried about the dogs reaction to her.

Sis visited a few days ago, the dog was growling at her, staring at her. As was stood inthe kitchen, the dog lunged at her, snapping at her hand (no damage). After a few mins the dog was approaching sis, the silly man told sis to reach her hand out towards the dog "she'll be OK when she's sniffed you", sis also didn't know thats not agood idea so reached her hand out for the dog to sniff, the dog launced a frightening 'attack', which I'm guessing was all just display as sis didn't get any injuries, but she said the dog 'really went for her', repeatedly snapping, growling & lunging. The dog was slammed to the floor by the bloke, then shut away.

Apparently the dog has tried to bite several people, this is one of the excuses it doesn't get walked (I spoke of these dogs on another recent thread - they rarely leave the garden). It normally gets shut away whenever they have a visitor.
My sis was very shocked and is now frightened of going around there, she is confused how the dog will happily greet her and be happy to have a fuss from her over the garden fence. I'm wondering if the fence helps the dog feel safe(?) rather than this being a guarding instinct as it has tried to bite other people while outside of the home/garden. The dog is OK with my siser & dad over the fence, but an uncle that visits sis can not get near the fence.

My sisters concern is that she may have to enter the house with nobody there to control/contain the dog.

I've given the following suggestions:
Be calm, walk slowly, keep her hands folded accross her chest loosely, do not look at or talk to the dog. If dog approaches her, turn away (not rapidly). No jerky/erratic movements.
I've also suggested that every time she visits, to take some high-value food and drop it on the floor - again, not towards the dog with no looking at the dog and in no way trying to encourage the dog towards her.

Is there anything else anybody can suggest? Anything I've allready suggested that is wrong?

Obviously this dogs needs proffesional help & a vet check, but it is not something on the cards :( So, it's just about keeping sis safe if she needs to go around there and let herself in.

(Too late to edit first post)
Also said, if she has to walk in, do not walk in a straight line towards the dog, arc around it.

Well for one thing, the bloke needs to go!  He'll have made this bad situation a hell of a lot worse :-(

Re. the dropping treats - good idea, but she should not move her hand to do it if possible.  I did this once with an aggressive collie - moved my hand very slowly to just drop a bit of hot dog on the floor and got bitten for it; even the small, slow movement of my hand was too much for him.

Can your sister go round more to meet the dog, or could she meet her away from the house and the mother to get used to her?  I am wondering if she knows she's 'safe' in the garden (and I agree with you, the fence may be making her feel safer) but in the house, sees her as a stranger and intruder (that pesky generalisation problem).

Just to add, on a more general note - I have to be perfectly honest, I would be questioning if it would not be better to rehome this dog.  Granted, that is on very limited information; but she's a high-energy, intelligent, sensitive breed, being handled completely inappropriately and with very little knowledge (the 'sniff the hand' thing), and not being exercised.  She's going to be bored, frustrated and completely stressed out :-( and honestly, I don't see how an emergency could be made safe with regards to the dog - if she does freak out and lunge again, and your sister is the only well person there, she could end up injured and unable to help the mother, defeating the purpose of the alarm.  Possibly she could be trained to go to a spot on cue - but in the even of someone strange coming into her house, and with the stress and aggression already displayed, I'd be very surprised if she responded.

The only other option I can see is to keep the dog contained away from the front door just in case - but that'll probably stress her out even more if she's already stuck at home all the time :-(

Sounds like the dog is terrified and most likely hasn't been socialised so a big problem clearly made considerably worse by the bloke.  Get him out of the way and hopefully with as little movement as possible and lots of treats the dog will improve, but what if ambulance or other medics need to go in?  I would say best rehomed, but this would be difficult given the number of dogs needing a home and the problems she has.  There's a very good rescue for collies in the south and also one in Cumbria depending on where the dog is - both would work with her before rehoming.

Cripes, it sounds like she is being a controlling collie with a good deal of fear thrown in- so some situations are okay but others make her extremely uneasy and she goes on the offensive to defend her group.

The situation does need some intensive training but it is not something your sis could do, not if she is scared.

The collie must be trained so that when the doorbell goes, the door can be opened and the mother attended to by carers when necessary and there are ways that could be done- giving the collie a clear job to do when someone enters the house, like carrying a toy that is kept at the door and so on.

I think all your advice is good ML but it is getting your sister and other carers through the door and able to work without being terrified that is bothering me, because I don't think there are any instant solutions- obviously I mean if no-one is there to put the dog away. Could you help your sister to train the dog?
In fact I'd appeal to the local vet and ask if there is a local behaviourist/trainer who might be prepared to help for a very small fee. I think what the collie could benefit from is some clicker training using techniques like targeting and counterconditioning to help her to cope with people coming into the house and building her confidence. (There is a very new technique called CAT which it is claimed works much more quickly, but I don't know enough about it yet). Part of me feels that if the dog cannot be trained by someone in the know that it might have to be rehomed. Even if it is trained, it sounds woefully understimulated and that cannot be helping.

> Well for one thing, the bloke needs to go!  He'll have made this bad situation a hell of a lot worse

Yes I know :( When I said that to sis she didn't understand how it could make the dog worse, I explained that the dog obviously allready feels very unhappy about her presence, now she'll also associate her prescence with being slammed to the floor, so sis must seem like a really threatening/frightening prospect :( :(

> Re. the dropping treats - good idea, but she should not move her hand to do it if possible.  I did this once with an aggressive collie - moved my hand very slowly to just drop a bit of hot dog on the floor and got bitten for it; even the small, slow movement of my hand was too much for him.

Brill, thanks for the warning on that.

> Just to add, on a more general note - I have to be perfectly honest, I would be questioning if it would not be better to rehome this dog

Both of the dogs could do with a more suitable home :( The male is great with people, he is about 3 years old. He was going to local dog training twice per week, but the training group would only allow him in with the puppies as he's aggressive to adult dogs :( Obviously, even after 2 years of going in with just puppies, he didn't make any progress with adult dogs, so he doesn't go any more.

> Can your sister go round more to meet the dog, or could she meet her away from the house and the mother to get used to her?

Thanks, I'll suggest these :)

> I don't see how an emergency could be made safe with regards to the dog

No, it is rather worrying :( :( I expect my dad would go with sis, if she was called around in an emergency (sis lives with dad), I'll have a chat to them both to make sure he does. It would be far safer for them to go together.
Fingers crossed that the mother doesn't need any help. The daughter & daughters husband work varying shifts, so most of the time there is somebody there, there is only a small potion of some days that the mother is on her own.

The more I think about this, it is too much to ask carers to have to confront a dog like this- and there could be legal consequences down the line if someone got hurt. Could they be persuaded to rehome the dog?

> Even if it is trained, it sounds woefully understimulated and that cannot be helping.

Indeed :(

> The collie must be trained so that when the doorbell goes, the door can be opened and the mother attended to by carers when necessary and there are ways that could be done- giving the collie a clear job to do when someone enters the house, like carrying a toy that is kept at the door and so on.

That sounds great and sounds like something a collie would be very happy to do - far more enjoyable for it to learn a task than be shut in the garden. I'll get sis to suggest it, but I'm pretty sure it will fall on deaf ears :(

> Could you help your sister to train the dog?

I'm not sure the owners would be willing or see the point :( Sis has suggested many times inthe past they walk the dog with her when she walks her dog, but that is always completely ignored (why put effort into making your dogs life better, when it still survives if you do the bare minimum :()
Sis would suggest she take the neighbours dog out for her walk herself, but with her bad leg she is unable to walk very well, to the point she has had to let dad take her own dog out daily now :(

Do you think some simple little things that sis could do over the garden fence would be any help? Simple obedience for a reward or fetching a toy? In a hope that it will help condition the dog to listen to my sister and build a positive associaiton?

> Could they be persuaded to rehome the dog?

No, that wouldn't happen. They only think of thierselfs, it would be upsetting for them to even consider rehoming the dog, even if they saw the potential problem they wouldn't consider it thier problem (if you see what I mean).

ML,

Some training over the fence would be a start, but even then it has to be generalised to the house and to people other than your sister to be effective. I am not being negative here I just would not want you to underestimate how much work might need to be done. As I said, I am also woriied about the legal implications. It is not on to expect people to do a job, whether emergency services or carer work, if they are in danger of getting bitten. Somehow, this needs to be made clear to the owners.

Back to the dog though. If your sister could start doing some obedience training over the fence, some sit stays and perhaps some swapsie games, getting the dog to understand commands like take it, leave it- you might be able to begin to set her up to carry something in her mouth at the door. But, this is quite a lot to ask of someone who is not a experienced/professional dog trainer- if the timing is off-well I don't need to tell you ML. You know more than enough to see what the problems are here. Also collies are real rule-bound differentiators, just because it was okay there, does not make it okay here. I'm also beginning to wonder if she's had the odd whack off the male owner...? All supposition though. Honestly, it is so hard to judge at distance, without seeing the dog and probably irresponsible to offer any advice, when it does sound like there is a real risk of someone getting bitten. I'm not sure these people are at all right to own this kind of breed.

What about this guy who has trained the other dog at a class- could he help? I think intervention has to be from someone that knows what to do and is experienced.

>> Could they be persuaded to rehome the dog?
> No, that wouldn't happen. They only think of thierselfs, it would be upsetting for them to even consider rehoming the dog, even if they saw the potential problem they wouldn't consider it thier problem (if you see what I mean)

Then, I am afraid I would decline to be placed on the list of "calls".
You don't have one of these call systems unless you are thought to be at risk of a medical emergency.  What would happen if a paramedic had to enter the property?  It is likely to particularly dangerous if the mother has collapsed or behaving in any other way that would alarm the dog.  If the paramedics have to deal with that, precious time will be lost that may make the difference between life and death.   I think they need to start considering their mothers wellbeing.

> I am not being negative here I just would not want you to underestimate how much work might need to be done

Thanks freelancer, I understand what your saying :)

> But, this is quite a lot to ask of someone who is not a experienced/professional dog trainer

Sis is likely to not get timing spot on and also to mis-judge the dogs behaviour, so perhaps miss any positive steps that would require rewarding and miss signs of stress/confrontaion etc..

Thought it was a bit of a shot in the dark :(

I'll have a word with sis, see if I can get her to have another go at getting the owners to see some sort of sense, ideally they need a proffesional behaviourist into see them, I don't think the guy at the training club is the right type of perons, I think he's more about teaching general obedience than actual behavioural stuff (but, I've never met him, just going on hearsay). The problem is, these people are the sort that think they are doing everything right, that they know best and will pooh-pooh anything suggested or mentioned to them.

> I'm also beginning to wonder if she's had the odd whack off the male owner...?

He appears to be quite harsh with the dogs, heavy handed, quick to drag them around and yell at them :(

> You don't have one of these call systems unless you are thought to be at risk of a medical emergency.  What would happen if a paramedic had to enter the property?  It is likely to particularly dangerous if the mother has collapsed or behaving in any other way that would alarm the dog.  If the paramedics have to deal with that, precious time will be lost that may make the difference between life and death.   I think they need to start considering their mothers wellbeing.

Stooge I hadn't thought of it that way - cheers :) coming from that angle, the mothers well-being, may have a chance of getting through to them.

The paramedics will not go in if they are faced with an aggressive dog without calling for help to deal with it.  It is not that they are not brave it is simply that they know an injury will put their team out for the rest of the shift at the very least and that is not fair on all the other people depending on them.

The only way I can think of your sister getting in safely in an emergency is using a " blocking board "
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/blocking-boards-as-a-tool-in-aggression-cases if you scroll down there's also a you tube clip.

> No, that wouldn't happen. They only think of thierselfs, it would be upsetting for them to even consider rehoming the dog, even if they saw the potential problem they wouldn't consider it thier problem (if you see what I mean).

How much more upsetting will it be if their mother dies because something happens and, as has been said, the paramedics cannot get in to her in time because of the dog?

Or, if the dog bites someone who's come in to help and ends up having to be PTS?  How much might that upset the mother?

I can fully understand them not wanting to rehome but they really need to look at this from all sides.

>How much more upsetting will it be if their mother dies because something happens and, as has been said, the paramedics cannot get in to her in >time because of the dog?

>Or, if the dog bites someone who's come in to help and ends up having to be PTS?  How much might that upset the mother?

There's  another possibility, if the mother is alone with the dog and becomes unwell, would the dog attack the mother whilst she is vulnerable?  any strange behaviour/movements could be a trigger for this dog to attack :(

These people really aren't doing themselves or the dog any favours are they?